Playing for England

[Samwam27 527]

I'm a bit old school and have always thought playing for your country is a privilege and you earn your starting place based on hard earned performance

Times have changed, and yesterday Stones started, despite not starting for Man C in first 3 games this season, Lingard was in the squad and came on as a late sub. Lingard hasn't played for Man U and with arrival of Ronaldo will be hard pressed to get any game time.

I always think you should play those "in form" so get frustrated when players who aren't playing for their clubs get selected to play for England.

Interested to know what others feel about this? 

[horsefly 4,298]

Frankly, I never really have rated Stones that highly. I remember Cameron Jerome bullying him in a draw with Everton. He always seems prone to a catastrophic error (and nearly was so again yesterday). Seems Pep has always been a bit sceptical about his ability and I would rather see the team move on to try out other options.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

30 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

I'm a bit old school and have always thought playing for your country is a privilege and you earn your starting place based on hard earned performance

Times have changed, and yesterday Stones started, despite not starting for Man C in first 3 games this season, Lingard was in the squad and came on as a late sub. Lingard hasn't played for Man U and with arrival of Ronaldo will be hard pressed to get any game time.

I always think you should play those "in form" so get frustrated when players who aren't playing for their clubs get selected to play for England.

Interested to know what others feel about this? 

It wouldn't happen with a club manager. How many of our new signings ever go straight into the team?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,715]

Now I'm not saying that Southgate picks players based off of his own favourites and players he knows well rather than basing the players he calls up on club form

 

No wait that is what I'm doing

[DraytonBoy 147]

It works both ways though, people on here don't rate Bamford but you can't argue with his form over the last two seasons. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Southgate appears to pick players who best fit his preferred template. He likes a ball-playing centre-half who can bring the ball out so you're not going to find a line-up with two central destroyers in there if he's playing four at the back. So, if two destroyers are the two in best form, tough - they won't fit the template.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Now I'm not saying that Southgate picks players based off of his own favourites and players he knows well rather than basing the players he calls up on club form

 

No wait that is what I'm doing

Its a fair comment.

What should an England do?

Outline the style he wants to play and pick players he thinks suit that style the best?

Or does he pick the best players and evolve a style around them?

Personally, I prefer the second option.

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its a fair comment.

What should an England do?

Outline the style he wants to play and pick players he thinks suit that style the best?

Or does he pick the best players and evolve a style around them?

Personally, I prefer the second option.

 

Which sounds great until a country's best players are eight midfielders, one goalie, a full-back, and a litany of strikers.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Or does he pick the best players and evolve a style around them?

But that is how we ended up wasting Scholes, a once in a generation talent, and had Gerrard and Lampard never passing to each other. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

Surely you pick the eleven players who you think will get the best result, regardless of current form?

Southgate is picking the players he knows and trusts, and who have proven themselves in an England shirt. This coach and these players have reached England's first World Cup semi-final in 28 years and England's first European Championship final ever in their last two tournaments, and they spanked Hungary in their own backyard yesterday, which France couldn't do at the Euros. 

So did Southgate get it wrong last night by not picking in-form players who have started the season well, like Conor Gallagher and Demarai Gray, for example?

[Ward 3 372]

If you play for any of the big 6 you're an England International. Joke

[cambridgeshire canary 6,715]

4 minutes ago, Ward 3 said:

If you play for any of the big 6 you're an England International. Joke

Tyrone Mings, Conor Coady, Declan Rice, Jordan Pickford, Kalvin Phillips, Kieran Trippier, Sam Johnstone, Nick Pope and Patrick Bamford are all playing for top six clubs are they? 🤔

Edited September 3, 2021 by cambridgeshire canary

[Ward 3 372]

1 minute ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Tyrone Mings, Conor Coady, Declan Rice, Jordan Pickford, Kalvin Phillips, Kieran Trippier, Sam Johnstone, Nick Pope and Patrick Bamford are all playing for top six clubs are they? 🤔

Yeah mate near enough 😜

[chicken 2,624]

There's a fairly simple answer to much of this to be honest.

Since the tournament in the summer, the England team has met up once, that was this week. They had one or two training sessions before a world cup qualifier.

There is enough space in the squad for some players have been involved before, but minimally, but probably not for a whole raft of new players. You need the result. So logic dictates that for competitive games like this week, you stick with tried and tested and players who on the whole know each other and know how the manager likes the team to approach games and play.

Kane was in fine form last season, as was Stones and Lingard. Three games is not a lot to miss as such. And Lingard will be up for proving why he is worth his chance to play at Man Utd. So why not? He could move on in January and the international games might be a platform for him to attract new suitors. However, if he doesn't play regularly, Southgate has dropped him from the squad entirely before now.

Of all our recent managers, I think it's a claim that can't really be laid at Southgate's feet. He shows lots of willing to bring in players in friendlies and then to bed them in when they are ready and when they are needed. He could be starting Henderson ahead of Philips or Rice for example.

As for CB... we aren't exactly blessed with great choice and depth. After Stones and Maguire it's the likes of Mings or White really.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Which sounds great until a country's best players are eight midfielders, one goalie, a full-back, and a litany of strikers.

Obviously it has to be within the parameters of balance.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

37 minutes ago, chicken said:

There's a fairly simple answer to much of this to be honest.

Since the tournament in the summer, the England team has met up once, that was this week. They had one or two training sessions before a world cup qualifier.

There is enough space in the squad for some players have been involved before, but minimally, but probably not for a whole raft of new players. You need the result. So logic dictates that for competitive games like this week, you stick with tried and tested and players who on the whole know each other and know how the manager likes the team to approach games and play.

Kane was in fine form last season, as was Stones and Lingard. Three games is not a lot to miss as such. And Lingard will be up for proving why he is worth his chance to play at Man Utd. So why not? He could move on in January and the international games might be a platform for him to attract new suitors. However, if he doesn't play regularly, Southgate has dropped him from the squad entirely before now.

Of all our recent managers, I think it's a claim that can't really be laid at Southgate's feet. He shows lots of willing to bring in players in friendlies and then to bed them in when they are ready and when they are needed. He could be starting Henderson ahead of Philips or Rice for example.

As for CB... we aren't exactly blessed with great choice and depth. After Stones and Maguire it's the likes of Mings or White really.

Yet maybe one of the better CB partnerships is Mee and Tarkowski. 

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

Well the results Southgate has got this year have been pretty good really so the way he’s selecting the players seems to be working...

 

I’m in the “pick the team to get the best results “ camp.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,715]

33 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Well the results Southgate has got this year have been pretty good really so the way he’s selecting the players seems to be working...

 

I’m in the “pick the team to get the best results “ camp.

End of the day much as Southgate does get lots of critisim (I mean I often critism him and I don't think he's the best manager around and do think he's a bit of an FA yes man and all) but end of the day he's taken us to an international final and a world cup Semi final. He does at least deserve some respect, more so given the lack of quality in the England team nowdays

[chicken 2,624]

25 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yet maybe one of the better CB partnerships is Mee and Tarkowski. 

Mee is 31, Tarkowski is 28. Together, they were part of a CB partnership in an ultra defensive team that finished 17th in the Premier League last season. They conceded 55 goals, which is relatively respectable, five teams conceded more than them, 4 teams conceded less than them but 50 or more. So they are certainly lower half of the table for goals conceded.

Tarkowski has been linked to bigger clubs, but I am not sure you could consider them "one of the better CB partnerships".

The team with the least amount of goals conceded last season? Man City. The same Man City where John Stones made 22 appearances last season. Injury has been his biggest bane in recent seasons. Though at 27 he is still in his prime.

Maguire was part of a Man Utd backline that were 5th in the goals conceded total.

Goals conceded: Man City - 32, Chelsea - 36, Arsenal - 39, Liverpool - 42, Man Utd - 44.

So in terms of those teams, you have Stones and Maguire, Gomez had been picked before but has been out injured.

I'm not sure that there is a good argument to suggest that Mee and Tarkowski are worthy candidates at this moment in time to be honest.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, Ward 3 said:

If you play for any of the big 6 you're an England International. Joke

Well, if you're English....

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

55 minutes ago, chicken said:

Mee is 31, Tarkowski is 28. Together, they were part of a CB partnership in an ultra defensive team that finished 17th in the Premier League last season. They conceded 55 goals, which is relatively respectable, five teams conceded more than them, 4 teams conceded less than them but 50 or more. So they are certainly lower half of the table for goals conceded.

Tarkowski has been linked to bigger clubs, but I am not sure you could consider them "one of the better CB partnerships".

The team with the least amount of goals conceded last season? Man City. The same Man City where John Stones made 22 appearances last season. Injury has been his biggest bane in recent seasons. Though at 27 he is still in his prime.

Maguire was part of a Man Utd backline that were 5th in the goals conceded total.

Goals conceded: Man City - 32, Chelsea - 36, Arsenal - 39, Liverpool - 42, Man Utd - 44.

So in terms of those teams, you have Stones and Maguire, Gomez had been picked before but has been out injured.

I'm not sure that there is a good argument to suggest that Mee and Tarkowski are worthy candidates at this moment in time to be honest.

So you don't think players would be better in top teams?

And age is irrelevant. Its the National side not a club side.

[AJ 1,218]

Wellbeck was always gash but was great for England. Club form isn't everything, especially with younger players we think might have big futures with England. We won the game 4-0, there's not too much to whinge about

[chicken 2,624]

23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

So you don't think players would be better in top teams?

And age is irrelevant. Its the National side not a club side.

Eh? You can't argue players are better than those who have performed better and then argue that this is the case because if they were in a different side they'd be a top defender.

And age isn't irrelevant. If a player is exceptional, like Ronaldo or Ibrahimovic, but those aren't international class players they are world class players, as in players that for over a decade, would be in your top 11 in the world.

Mee, as good as he has been for Burnley, isn't remotely close to them in that regard. Sorry. They just aren't as good as you want them to be.

[Newtopia 517]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yet maybe one of the better CB partnerships is Mee and Tarkowski. 

True but do they really fit into a team he is sculpting - I find Southgates side to be rather dull, yet he does know what he is doing and in team selection shows real leadership, it is his team and they will succeed or fail, but it is his decision.  The last two tournaments have been our most successful run as a side since the Sixties, and I think he has shown that you need to select the best players for your team, not the best players and form a team around them.  So hopefully the days of players like Geoff Thomas and Drinkwater getting caps are behind us.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,715]

1 hour ago, Newtopia said:

True but do they really fit into a team he is sculpting - I find Southgates side to be rather dull, yet he does know what he is doing and in team selection shows real leadership, it is his team and they will succeed or fail, but it is his decision.  The last two tournaments have been our most successful run as a side since the Sixties, and I think he has shown that you need to select the best players for your team, not the best players and form a team around them.  So hopefully the days of players like Geoff Thomas and Drinkwater getting caps are behind us.

Agreed. I said it before but much as I do agree that Southgate, both in personality and team building does seem to come off as a little too nice, a little too bland and boring.. But so far it has worked. We reached the world cup semis. Our first interntional Euros final too. Sure, he's an FA yes man. Sure, you might fall asleep listening to him talk and yes he does tend to make his lineups a little more defensive than prehaps it would seem they need to be.

 

But what he's doing is working.

Edited September 3, 2021 by cambridgeshire canary

[Move Klose 303]

17 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Now I'm not saying that Southgate picks players based off of his own favourites and players he knows well rather than basing the players he calls up on club form

 

No wait that is what I'm doing

People are soon quick to forget the euros and how well England did, especially as a defensive unit. Seriously who would you play instead of John Stones. Coady or Mings, doubtfull.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,715]

57 minutes ago, Move Klose said:

People are soon quick to forget the euros and how well England did, especially as a defensive unit. Seriously who would you play instead of John Stones. Coady or Mings, doubtfull.

Stones is fine. Not been the best at his club recently but he does fine, plays for a top club I think he's a pretty good defender. Mings is a violent thug who should not be on any football pitch and does not in any way deserve to wear the England shirt. Coady is ok, clearly a solid leader for Wolves and a pretty good player. Still not too sure if he should be a regular starter for England though, but he does fine. No real complaints.

 

As for some other choices in the defence I think England could go for.. On the left while Shaw should contunue being number one in my opinion don't see why Chilwell shoud not be given another shot, has always been reliable for the Foxes and has never really put a foot wrong.

On the right we have Walker who once again I have no issues with and I think is one of Englands best defenders, however why Wan-Bissaka has not been given a chance recently is beyond me. Young which Southgate likes as we know he's clearly talented and never looks out of place for United is full of pace and statsticly one of the best tacklers in the Prem the past season.. Although sadly I doubt his England callup will come anytime soon however given he's recently been arrested for drink driving mind so that's out the window.. Although of course Grealish was arrested and charged with the same yet he's made it into the England squad so who knows what the future holds

 

As for centrebacks.. I feel Maguire should continue being in the England lineup. He's always been solid for England and has clearly started to improve for both club and country and I feel he does get a little too much slack thrown at him. But as for my choice for a surprise callup I would make, hmm.. Michael Keane should get a shot I feel. Been doing well for Everton and has always seemed like he's up for a fight and a defensive battle. Rather surprised to not see him get a callup recently.. Been a whole two years since he last was. Tarkowski is one that I feel very much deservers a callup, alongside his Burnley partner Mee. I feel Tarkowski is probably the better of them two of them though, and I still have no idea why he's not been called up giving just how good and strong he has been for Burnley recently. Maybe he has said he would prefer a Poland callup? Who knows, I guess only he and Southgate do.

 

Now you want a real crazy out of left field callup I would make? Smalling. Haha, no I have not been hit on the head. Yes he became somewhat of a joke player for Man United (Although given he was alongside Phil Jones at the time I don't think the blame is all on Smalling..) but ever since moving to Roma in Italy he has been quite frankly phenomenal for them. He's won awards, best defender trophies and once again from a stats perspective one of the best defenders in the Italian divison. Yes I understand that's not quite the Prem, and he if called up would be one of the oldest players for England and we know Southgate loves his players to be on the younger side and all.. But I feel he could be a surprise callup that would really prove everyone wrong. He has all the experience of playing at a top level for most of his career and I really do feel that much as people would laugh and joke about it he really would do very well for England right about now.

Edited September 4, 2021 by cambridgeshire canary

[sgncfc 1,227]

17 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

Well the results Southgate has got this year have been pretty good really so the way he’s selecting the players seems to be working...

He certainly gets us through all the games we should win. Problem is, when we face teams who have equally good players we don't do so well. He's way too cautious for me in those games.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,715]

3 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

He certainly gets us through all the games we should win. Problem is, when we face teams who have equally good players we don't do so well. He's way too cautious for me in those games.

I mean we did beat Germany and Belgium 

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

I mean we did beat Germany and Belgium 

What was the Belgium score?