England vs Hungary World Cup qualifiers

[Budapest Canary 152]

Just now, kirku said:

Can you expand on this point - what double standard are you referring to?

Some fans get away with more than others. At the Euros, German home  fans booed our national anthem, while a fan of theirs ran into the pitch carrying some political message, France fans were throwing objects (plastic cups) to the pitch in Budapest, (but other than that the two sets of fans got along peacefully throughout the city), and also at the Euros I heard many instances of booing anthems through the telly (something Hungary fans didn't do at this time, but got a stadium ban three years ago for booing the Slovak anthem) and I could carry on. I question consistency here. 

[kirku 1,332]

8 minutes ago, Budapest Canary said:

Some fans get away with more than others. At the Euros, German home  fans booed our national anthem, while a fan of theirs ran into the pitch carrying some political message, France fans were throwing objects (plastic cups) to the pitch in Budapest, (but other than that the two sets of fans got along peacefully throughout the city), and also at the Euros I heard many instances of booing anthems through the telly (something Hungary fans didn't do at this time, but got a stadium ban three years ago for booing the Slovak anthem) and I could carry on. I question consistency here. 

Thanks for clearing that up.

There's no double standard here at all.

Hungarian fans have a shameful record on racial abuse and, while I find booing anthems moronic, it cannot be compared to aiming monkey chants at black players.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Budapest Canary said:

A couple of thoughts after the game: England put out a very strong starting eleven, and won deservedly, as we gradually fell apart in the second half. A  bit disappointed as secretly I was hoping for a point, but bearing in mind that England's squad value was over 1bn euros vs 100 thousand, that's reality.  Gulácsi may have the reputation of a solid keeper in the Bundesliga, he makes blunders regularly when playing for Hungary, I'm happier when Dibusz or Bogdan stands in goal.

As to the crowd reactions: while I do hate taking the knee , as it is 100% political and has no merits beyond provocation, I find booing it dumb for the very same reason. I never did it myself, but it's not a crime.  Where I sat I heard no racist abuses,  there may have been a couple of individual ones, but certainly  not at mass level. Sterling or any other player may have been booed in the context of the game, for perceived playacting, or his goal celebration,  but for not other reasons.  Taking goal celebration to the home ultras is never a good idea, but then I distinctly remember France fans throwing cups at Hungary players at the Euros, while I cannot recall UEFA taking any issues about it.   Rest assured, we'll get a 25 match stadium ban in addition to the ones we picked up during the Euros, and I bet England will get a warning, and some symbolic fine.  You can rely on UEFA/FIFA double standards.      

That's still deplorable. I go to every home game at Norwich and haven't heard a racist comment for years.

Your fans have a terrible record of disgusting racism and despite it being raised time and time again your fans continue to do it. It's a minority, but a bigger minority than the huge majority of other national teams supporters.

You sound more reasonable, you should be calling out this racism. Those couple of individual ones you heard? You should be reporting them.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

51 minutes ago, hogesar said:

That's still deplorable. I go to every home game at Norwich and haven't heard a racist comment for years.

Your fans have a terrible record of disgusting racism and despite it being raised time and time again your fans continue to do it. It's a minority, but a bigger minority than the huge majority of other national teams supporters.

You sound more reasonable, you should be calling out this racism. Those couple of individual ones you heard? You should be reporting them.

Most of the racist abuse I know of that went on at Carrow Road was when Fashanu was playing and that was never from us/Norwich fans but always a couple drunk idiots in the opposition end 

[Budapest Canary 152]

27 minutes ago, kirku said:

Thanks for clearing that up.

There's no double standard here at all.

Hungarian fans have a shameful record on racial abuse and, while I find booing anthems moronic, it cannot be compared to aiming monkey chants at black players.

So why was booing listed then specifically for a Hungarian stadium ban, and why is being entirely overlooked now. It's moving the goalposts. Abuses in most cases could be attached to a handful of individuals (who are being currently investigated and prosecuted  by the Hungarian FA in terms of yesterday's match)  not to whole groups, let alone  the 60,000 fans). After the Euros the bans were dished out, again, not so much based on UEFA's own report, but by camera footage made by an association called  FARE, who filmed and lip-read individuals' "f-offs", or a small no-LMBTQ-board, while German activists were sharing out tens of thousands of rainbow flags outside the stadium, and multis were flashing eye-straining  rainbow adverts via "perimeter advertising"  throughout the match.  

Does the FA investigate the "rent boy" chant of Liverpool fans? 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with rainbow flags. The notion that they're equivalent to no-LMBTQ boards or chucking objects at players is absurd.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 hours ago, king canary said:

'he was asking for it' 

Yes, mustn't upset the delicate racists, even though the shirt was a tribute message to his recently deceased friend. 

 

I am not scared to call out someone if they have done wrong. And while people sit and pontificate about how other nations should act, I accept that these nations are far behind us in accepting that certain matters are changing in the world. As I posted, I played football with Hungarians and know how they view certain things. As a nation, it chose to side with Germany in WWII and then came under the Soviet influence. An influence that was more right wing and despotic than most others.

Their new found freedom coupled with their medieval views is an awful cocktail.

Our players knew what kind of atmosphere there would be. Like it or not, it would be violent in content and action. Go in, play the game, get out and then discuss afterwards. In other words say and do nothing.

Sterling, having scored which was enough to bait them, then ran towards them pulling his shirt off with a message on it. For all the crowd knew it could have been an insult. Provocative, arrogant and stupid.

If your friend has died, grieve, mourn in the right way, at the right time and in the right place.

A chap at our golf club moaned that he had worked in Bermuda and found the locals lazy. I pointed out to him that it was their country. Recent events in Afghanistan have shown us that we should not be telling other nations how to act and behave without expecting a reaction.

All this talk in the last couple of years is just that, spin. Nothing has changed. Until we say we will not play nations like Hungary and their ilk and manage to persuade other nations to join us, there is no incentive or threat to change and it will not happen.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

 

I am not scared to call out someone if they have done wrong. And while people sit and pontificate about how other nations should act, I accept that these nations are far behind us in accepting that certain matters are changing in the world. As I posted, I played football with Hungarians and know how they view certain things. As a nation, it chose to side with Germany in WWII and then came under the Soviet influence. An influence that was more right wing and despotic than most others.

Their new found freedom coupled with their medieval views is an awful cocktail.

Our players knew what kind of atmosphere there would be. Like it or not, it would be violent in content and action. Go in, play the game, get out and then discuss afterwards. In other words say and do nothing.

Sterling, having scored which was enough to bait them, then ran towards them pulling his shirt off with a message on it. For all the crowd knew it could have been an insult. Provocative, arrogant and stupid.

If your friend has died, grieve, mourn in the right way, at the right time and in the right place.

A chap at our golf club moaned that he had worked in Bermuda and found the locals lazy. I pointed out to him that it was their country. Recent events in Afghanistan have shown us that we should not be telling other nations how to act and behave without expecting a reaction.

All this talk in the last couple of years is just that, spin. Nothing has changed. Until we say we will not play nations like Hungary and their ilk and manage to persuade other nations to join us, there is no incentive or threat to change and it will not happen.

Re. the bit in bold, they can then read the T-shirt and make a decision. A minority clearly went full **** / racist. Grieving is an entirely personal matter and if that's how Sterling chose to do it, fine. The only thing stupid about it was the reaction of a set of primeval, spastic knuckle-draggers.
 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

You are aware the message Sterling had on his shirt was one in respect and memory to a friend of his that had recently passed away and not a message that anything to do with racism.. right?

So why broadcast it in a foreign and aggressive country? Even the broadcasters said they didn't know what it said. Sterling is stupid.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Re. the bit in bold, they can then read the T-shirt and make a decision. A minority clearly went full **** / racist. Grieving is an entirely personal matter and if that's how Sterling chose to do it, fine. The only thing stupid about it was the reaction of a set of primeval, spastic knuckle-draggers.
 

Can you read Hungarian? We all knew the reception they would get if they scored let alone run toward them brandishing a slogan.

Sterling and the FA must be dumb.

You yourself have used the word spastic which could be construed as out of order.

I am fed up with us telling other nations how to behave when we haven't sorted out our problems.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Can you read Hungarian? We all knew the reception they would get if they scored let alone run toward them brandishing a slogan.

Sterling and the FA must be dumb.

You yourself have used the word spastic which could be construed as out of order.

I am fed up with us telling other nations how to behave when we haven't sorted out our problems.

You just underlined my point. They might not even be able to read the T-shirt as it's in a different language (although English is a world language, there's no guarantee that people are that well-versed in it) yet some fans still go ape for absolutely no sensible reason whatsoever.

If you can't even read or understand the slogan, what kind of absolute braindead cretin do you have to be to be wound up by it? I can't read Hungarian, so I don't react to any Hungarian-language slogans until I find out what it means.

The only dumb people there are those who react with racist abuse when confronted with an opposing player, celebrating the moment of scoring a goal as I'd expect them to. Sterling and the FA are bob-on in this field. Show those racist fans up for what they really are, and get it clearly shown to the rest of the world what not to do.

I do essentially agree with your last sentence though, as the penalty defeat and resulting reaction showed, there are enough morons in the UK too.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

You just underlined my point. They might not even be able to read the T-shirt as it's in a different language (although English is a world language, there's no guarantee that people are that well-versed in it) yet some fans still go ape for absolutely no sensible reason whatsoever.

If you can't even read or understand the slogan, what kind of absolute braindead cretin do you have to be to be wound up by it? I can't read Hungarian, so I don't react to any Hungarian-language slogans until I find out what it means.

The only dumb people there are those who react with racist abuse when confronted with an opposing player, celebrating the moment of scoring a goal as I'd expect them to. Sterling and the FA are bob-on in this field. Show those racist fans up for what they really are, and get it clearly shown to the rest of the world what not to do.

I do essentially agree with your last sentence though, as the penalty defeat and resulting reaction showed, there are enough morons in the UK too.

This is the thrust of my argument. They were going to get violent if Sterling scored no matter what.

The FA should have told them all to play football and nothing else.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

This is the thrust of my argument. They were going to get violent if Sterling scored no matter what.

The FA should have told them all to play football and nothing else.

I see what you're trying to say, but expecting them just to stay quiet seems well-intentioned but absurd under the circumstances. But if they're going to get violent come what may (where I agree), you might as well highlight the absurdity behind their "rationale" for doing so.

I actually think Southgate missed a slight trick, but thought he was looking at it by bringing Lingard and Saka off the bench. I'd have lobbed on every other black player on the bench just to make a point.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

So why broadcast it in a foreign and aggressive country? Even the broadcasters said they didn't know what it said. Sterling is stupid.

Sterling is far from stupid and has done far more to combat racism than you or I, which is why I dont feel comfortable saying what he done was wrong (also because it wasn't, it was the reaction that was wrong).

[horsefly 4,287]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Can you read Hungarian? We all knew the reception they would get if they scored let alone run toward them brandishing a slogan.

I'm sure we would have all expected that an opposing player celebrating a goal in front of the home fans would be in for some abuse. But do you think if it had been Kane celebrating in a similar manner he would have been "greeted" with racist abuse? That is surely the key point.

Edited September 3, 2021 by horsefly

[Badger 2,405]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

More a case of fully, and definitively, exposing a troublesome minority of fans for what they are.

I'm still waiting for somebody to come along and say that the Hungarian fans were not racist at all all, but it was a protest aimed at the pro-Marxist England team.

This excuse has certainly been used by some to defend sections of our fans!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm sure we would have all expected that an opposing player celebrating a goal in front of the home fans would be in for some abuse. But do you think if it had been Kane celebrating in a similar manner he would have been "greeted" with racist abuse? That is surely the key point.

I think the problem is that we are assuming that racial abuse is more hurtful than other abuse. I am not black so cannot speak for black people but I have been subjected to abuse. Being called a pommy b*****d so many times when living in NZ or Emmet when first living in Cornwall is abuse. Because the intention was to hurt and a feeling of superiority.

Like I said to Gunny, he described the crowd as spastics, which can be construed badly. I know what meant but is abuse to counter abuse the way to go?

Sterling himself was arrested twice but not charged regarding violence to females. And was not charged for drug abuse. That doesn't give anyone an excuse for racially abusing him of course. But may just highlight that we all may have our own prejudices.

And I am in no way condemning him. But my first point was that I thought he was out of order for what he did. As Bowie said "putting out the fire with gasoline".

 

[horsefly 4,287]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think the problem is that we are assuming that racial abuse is more hurtful than other abuse. I am not black so cannot speak for black people but I have been subjected to abuse. Being called a pommy b*****d so many times when living in NZ or Emmet when first living in Cornwall is abuse. Because the intention was to hurt and a feeling of superiority.

Like I said to Gunny, he described the crowd as spastics, which can be construed badly. I know what meant but is abuse to counter abuse the way to go?

Sterling himself was arrested twice but not charged regarding violence to females. And was not charged for drug abuse. That doesn't give anyone an excuse for racially abusing him of course. But may just highlight that we all may have our own prejudices.

And I am in no way condemning him. But my first point was that I thought he was out of order for what he did. As Bowie said "putting out the fire with gasoline".

 

I think the real problem is that football remains a "workplace" where racist abuse of the staff (the players) is frequently still perpetuated and excused by significant proportions of the clientele (the fans). In how many other contexts would this sort of abuse be "tolerated"? The time has come for a no excuse culture to eradicate it.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I think the real problem is that football remains a "workplace" where racist abuse of the staff (the players) is frequently still perpetuated and excused by significant proportions of the clientele (the fans). In how many other contexts would this sort of abuse be "tolerated"? The time has come for a no excuse culture to eradicate it.

I do find it puzzling in many circumstances that the standards for abuse are blurred.

For instance, I would doubt that any of panel of Mock the Week are racists or certainly would own up to be yet they and us who watch it, find it OK for them to abuse politicians, celebrities etc. Yet the same panel would no doubt say that older comedians were out of order.

Of course they would be now but weren't then. As with racism, what was commonplace is now taboo. But of course some societies have different values, not only of racism but of women's role in their own society.

So how do we convince those in the world that don't agree with our values that they should? Or is that an arrogant western society outlook?

So all we can do is be in a country where the majority say, stop, that is enough. Well we have done legally yet just the same as any other law in this country, people have chosen to decide which ones they will ignore.

Frankly, I doubt you will ever eradicate it without some form of punitive action.

 

[Budapest Canary 152]

18 hours ago, horsefly said:

I'm sure we would have all expected that an opposing player celebrating a goal in front of the home fans would be in for some abuse. But do you think if it had been Kane celebrating in a similar manner he would have been "greeted" with racist abuse? That is surely the key point.

What is the evidence of for racist here? A racist cup throwing? If Kane went there to provoke the crowd he would have received the same. Mind you, if any visiting  players carefully picked the Snakepit for goal celebration, I'm pretty sure, he would get some objects flying towards him. Although I graduated from the UEA and read English reasonably well, I would have little chance to spell out a bouncing message on a shirt from a distance, even if I sat nearer.

[horsefly 4,287]

3 minutes ago, Budapest Canary said:

What is the evidence of for racist here? A racist cup throwing? If Kane went there to provoke the crowd he would have received the same. Mind you, if any visiting  players carefully picked the Snakepit for goal celebration, I'm pretty sure, he would get some objects flying towards him. Although I graduated from the UEA and read English reasonably well, I would have little chance to spell out a bouncing message on a shirt from a distance, even if I sat nearer.

I'm simply going by the many reports of "monkey" chanting etc. No doubt there will be an investigation to establish the truth. As far as the message on the shirt goes, that is a complete irrelevance. If you couldn't read it, then it was irrelevant, if you could read it, then you would have realised it was a tribute. Either way it would not justify racist chanting.

[Midlands Yellow 3,946]

Was the match decent? I’m not a fan of the national team in general but saw England won handsomely. 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Was the match decent? I’m not a fan of the national team in general but saw England won handsomely. 

 

They won the second half handsomely.