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3 minutes ago, Indy said:

No doubt we prolonged some people’s lives by shutting down, but that’s not an option forever, people need to come to terms that this is an illness the same as cancer and heart disease yet we still happily eat junk food and have a big part of the population over weight!

It is very different from heart disease/ cancer as these are not transmissible diseases. I can decide on my own actions designed to prevent these as I chose but as society opens up, we are dependent upon the actions of others.

Rather than comparing it to heart disease, a better comparison would be something like drink driving: we force people to restrict their actions in order to protect the population at large.

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15 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He's talking about the proper surgical masks and claiming that the normal masks people wear into Tesco don't do anything.

It's demonstrable ****, regardless of what he's read on some article linked on reddit. When I take my mask off after wearing, particularly for a length of time, the inside of it is damp. That's caused by germ-carrying droplets in my breathe. The fact that the mask is damp shows that the moisture has been caught by it and not emitted into the atmosphere. Even if a lot of it escapes through the mask, some of it has been captured and the captured stuff may have infected someone.

Mines never damp, just how dribbly are you? 😏 I'll continue wearing mine as firstly its no biggy, secondly you can hide behind it when you see people you can't be arsed to talk to..... 

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3 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

 you can hide behind it when you see people you can't be arsed to talk to..... 

Blimey Ken, how big is your mask? 

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3 minutes ago, Badger said:

It is very different from heart disease/ cancer as these are not transmissible diseases. I can decide on my own actions designed to prevent these as I chose but as society opens up, we are dependent upon the actions of others.

Rather than comparing it to heart disease, a better comparison would be something like drink driving: we force people to restrict their actions in order to protect the population at large.

I agree but my point being is people die, heart disease isn’t much different you can take measure to prevent it the same as Covid. It’s each person to ensure they do what they need to, mitigating the spread by some measures is fine, but how do you implement this in modern society when we don’t even police drink driving, drugs and bad behaviour! It’s up to each of us to do what we can, what everyone else does is their prerogative. Shops and businesses can take measure and so can we.

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

I agree but my point being is people die, heart disease isn’t much different you can take measure to prevent it the same as Covid. It’s each person to ensure they do what they need to, mitigating the spread by some measures is fine, but how do you implement this in modern society when we don’t even police drink driving, drugs and bad behaviour! It’s up to each of us to do what we can, what everyone else does is their prerogative. Shops and businesses can take measure and so can we.

Other countries have taken a far more rigorous approach to non compliance.

Just to give some indication of scale, there were 240 deaths related to driving driving in 2020 and it is (correctly imo) an impressionable offense. Covid has killed well over 100,000 and yet many aspects of preventative behaviour are advisory.

Where is the logic?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/912948/drink-drive-final-estimates-2018.pdf

Edited by Badger
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10 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Blimey Ken, how big is your mask? 

Normal size, but I have an unusually small head 😁

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4 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Normal size, but I have an unusually small head 😁

Unlike some on here! 

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4 minutes ago, Badger said:

Other countries have taken a far more rigorous approach to non compliance.

Just to give some indication of scale, there were 240 deaths related to driving driving in 2020 and it is (correctly imo) an impressionable offense. Covid has killed well over 100,000 and yet many aspects of preventative behaviour are advisory.

Where is the logic?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/912948/drink-drive-final-estimates-2018.pdf

That’s not correct, you can’t say definitively Covid killed those people. Most were frail elderly who could have died within days anyhow! That’s my point that we measure with Covid, the actual deaths above the 5 year average was around 40-60k more. I’d put more confidence in this as actual figures from Covid. This year it’ll be interesting as we have the vaccine effect.

Just as a comparison a few years back we had a particularly aggressive flu virus which took out around 40k people, on par with Covid.

We did what was needed, lockdown to protect, now we have a level of Covid protection there has to be an acceptance that we move on with knowledge that our vaccines are very good for the vast majority, those others might be unlucky, I could be one of them, but that’s life and death is inevitable. As long as we do what we can, businesses put in measures then I really don’t understand what more you want? Mandatory to wear masks at all times, two metres distance as norm? No mass gatherings? Well if it is, apply that to your own choices.

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We are all in this together but come at it from different perspectives. regardless what happens in the wider world we most do our best to make individual risk assessments, but lady luck will play a very big part as so much of this is outside our individual control. There is though a lot of misinformation which in turn influences behavior and attitudes. The view that the only people who will die or get really ill from this virus are the really old, really ill or unvaccinated is partly true, but in the main false. For a number of months now the vast majority of COVID deaths in the UK have been doubly vaccinated people. Doubly vaccinated both catch it and transmit it. The vaccine is a wonderful thing but is only 1 tool in the box and people need to live their lives yes but not throw caution to the wind in the misguided view that only a few on the fringe will be adversely affected.  Masks do help fact, part of the menu, so does social distancing, both of these in recent months seem in large part to have gone out of the window. The number of infections recorded is important as roughly 0.4% will ultimately die several weeks later. 20% of all people in hospital are under 30. Great though it is the vaccine is only effective on at best about 90% of people like most vaccines so hand on heart does anyone on here know if they are in the 90% or 10 %. Many have underlying conditions, many people have them and do not even know they have. When all this kicked off we were slow to learn the lessons of Spain and Italy, lets not be slow to learn the lessons of Israel one of the most vaccinated countries in the world who threw caution to the wind in May and opened up dropping all restrictions a couple of months or so ahead of us and now are reintroducing many restrictions after a high spike in Delta cases which are more transmissible, no big events for them at the moment. They are already dishing out 3rd jabs which are being effective but we are still talking about it. Yes i love football and other big events, do i think in their current format they are sustainable ? not for a while. I totally accept what others say that this virus will not go away and we need to learn to live with it, but there are a lot of twists and turns along the way, our numbers are going up and the schools and universities have not gone back yet.Throw into the pot the pot that we do not fully understand how long the vaccines will be effective for is another complication, early research suggests that Pfizer is better in the short term but its protection wanes at a much faster rate than Astra Zenica. There are no easy answers to this. What makes this issue very different is if i catch it i can give it to others even people i do not know, if i like to drink, smoke, take drugs have an unhealthy lifestyle etc then in the main it is me who picks up the tab

Edited by Yorkshire Canary

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5 minutes ago, Indy said:

That’s not correct, you can’t say definitively Covid killed those people. Most were frail elderly who could have died within days anyhow! That’s my point that we measure with Covid, the actual deaths above the 5 year average was around 40-60k more. I’d put more confidence in this as actual figures from Covid. This year it’ll be interesting as we have the vaccine effect.

Just as a comparison a few years back we had a particularly aggressive flu virus which took out around 40k people, on par with Covid.

We did what was needed, lockdown to protect, now we have a level of Covid protection there has to be an acceptance that we move on with knowledge that our vaccines are very good for the vast majority, those others might be unlucky, I could be one of them, but that’s life and death is inevitable. As long as we do what we can, businesses put in measures then I really don’t understand what more you want? Mandatory to wear masks at all times, two metres distance as norm? No mass gatherings? Well if it is, apply that to your own choices.

We’re back to Lakey’s point now. You’re saying you don’t have want to continue to take measures to reduce the spread of the disease. Why, I don’t want to speculate, but it looks like you can’t be arsed to look out for others from where I’m standing.

 

Plus, you’re already ignoring the point I made about the significant reduction in deaths during lockdown due to the huge reduction in traffic, person to person contact and so on. Your “40-60K deaths” is higher because of that. Or are you claiming that that is balanced out by “additional deaths from stress related diseases will be down to lockdown, finances etc”? Because if you believe that, I’m not sure there’s much point trying to debate sensibly.

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6 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

We’re back to Lakey’s point now. You’re saying you don’t have want to continue to take measures to reduce the spread of the disease. Why, I don’t want to speculate, but it looks like you can’t be arsed to look out for others from where I’m standing.

 

Plus, you’re already ignoring the point I made about the significant reduction in deaths during lockdown due to the huge reduction in traffic, person to person contact and so on. Your “40-60K deaths” is higher because of that. Or are you claiming that that is balanced out by “additional deaths from stress related diseases will be down to lockdown, finances etc”? Because if you believe that, I’m not sure there’s much point trying to debate sensibly.

No I never said I don’t take measures, I’ve said it’s down to each person to do an assessment and work it out for themselves! I’ve stated businesses will apply measure we abide by, I said you can’t enforce your own opinions on others! 
 

As for your point about deaths, you have no idea of what would have happened, it’s all supposition! I’m pointing out that deaths come in many ways, focusing on one area which now has massive vaccine and treatment attached to it is daft, we need to accept we live with things, if you don’t then take your own measures! Don’t go out, wear a mask al the time, don’t attend mass events and live in a bubble, your choices the same as not eating damaging foods or smoking!

Edited by Indy

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11 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I’m not sure there’s much point trying to debate sensibly

This is the PinkUn forum.

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

Most were frail elderly who could have died within days anyhow!

That's just total nonsense!

Whilst it is true that being old is the biggest risk factor, to suggest that they were all on the point of death anyway is crassly ill-informed.

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Just now, Badger said:

That's just total nonsense!

Whilst it is true that being old is the biggest risk factor, to suggest that they were all on the point of death anyway is crassly ill-informed.

No it’s not, it’s an opinion which is based a on a vast majority of statements and data from last year by the NHS! How’s it nonsense? Tell me how many deaths by flu last year? As I’ve said people who keep banging on trying to control others freedom of choice is wrong. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The personal choice imo is either to be selfish or not selfish.  Vulnerable people would feel more like being able to live their lives if the rest of us wear masks in enclosed places - and wearing a mask is no great hardship.

The reason to wear a mask is to help others, not to help yourself. Now that is a hard concept for some people to grasp, I grant you, but it is the case. In other words people can live their lives, do everything they want to do - but they could wear a mask in enclosed situations like shops and businesses - and they would be helping others. 

 

I never mentioned masks or mitigating risks for spreading the virus and keeping vulnerable people safe. Actually I agree that should be happening and was disappointed to see a distinct lack of them at the Liverpool game.

 

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

That’s not correct, you can’t say definitively Covid killed those people.

Well the death certificate is usually taken as a pretty good indicator of cause of death, but you know better than doctors I presume?

 

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate

Weekly - 609

Total - 154,811

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

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Just now, Badger said:

Well the death certificate is usually taken as a pretty good indicator of cause of death, but you know better than doctors I presume?

 

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate

Weekly - 609

Total - 154,811

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

WITH not because!

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1 minute ago, Badger said:

Well the death certificate is usually taken as a pretty good indicator of cause of death, but you know better than doctors I presume?

 

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate

Weekly - 609

Total - 154,811

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

To counter that slightly, its death for any reason where a positive covid test has been recorded within 10 days. So I could test positive and die of literally anything else within 10 days and its a covid death. 

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Just to add, here’s one Flu graph! How many who died with Covid would have died with flu last year?

 

 

71509353-689E-4E21-A9A7-306BC9206428.gif

Edited by Indy

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11 minutes ago, Indy said:

Tell me how many deaths by flu last year?

Uk figures

2018 - 1,598 2019 - 1,223 - Average 1,410

So even with the extraordinary steps taken to prevent covid, it was still responsible for 100 times more deaths than flu.

I think that you have been listening too much to dodgy information from the internet or "your mate down the pub who says...!

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/influenzadeathsin20182019and2020

 

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Badger I’m not sure what you’re arguing about, we’ve gone through lockdown, we’re now double vaccinated, we’re trying to get more vaccinated and hospitalisation and deaths are at a rate which must be accepted at this time. Sure in time more treatments and better vaccines will drive this down, but surely we are at a point where living with it as it, is acceptable? If people don’t want to attend mass gatherings then don’t!

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2 minutes ago, Badger said:

Uk figures

2018 - 1,598 2019 - 1,223 - Average 1,410

So even with the extraordinary steps taken to prevent covid, it was still responsible for 100 times more deaths than flu.

I think that you have been listening too much to dodgy information from the internet or "your mate down the pub who says...!

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/influenzadeathsin20182019and2020

 

That’s my point what was it in 2021? Far less!

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:
9 minutes ago, Badger said:

Well the death certificate is usually taken as a pretty good indicator of cause of death, but you know better than doctors I presume?

 

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate

Weekly - 609

Total - 154,811

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

WITH not because!

Oh for goodness sake!

Doctors put Covid on the death certificate in the section that asks cause of death!

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4 minutes ago, Badger said:

Oh for goodness sake!

Doctors put Covid on the death certificate in the section that asks cause of death!

You really need to chill, it’s not because of Covid, I have experienced a close elderly relative who died with heart related issues, had Covid on his death certificate as he tested positive. So you carry on believing what you want it’s you prerogative and I’ll still back my view as I say we’re far down the road from 2020. If you’re so concerned fine isolate yourself and take precautions. I expect you won’t be at Carrow road next weekend?

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

if you don’t then take your own measures........wear a mask all the time

Its this kind of sentiment that gets me and we see it over and over - it's the "you wear a mask if you want to be careful, but I won't" attittude - but it totally misses the point - its others being careful by wearing a mask that will help you, not you yourself wearing a mask. 

People looking out for others......or not.......I've just been out in Keswick and there are more not wearing masks in shops than wearing them and it just seems so counter intuitive to me.  Whole families wandering around without masks on, pushing past you, standing right next to you in a queue - and don't mention Greggs, which looked like the black hole of Calcutta with the amount of people in there and queuing up.....none that I could see with masks (I didn't go in).   It's just ridiculous that so many people make that decision not to wear them - and that's despite signs up everywhere requesting them to wear them. 

There will be another surge of cases, particularly when schools go back and the aim ought to be to slow the thing down as much as possible and although mask wearing might be a tad inconvenient, there is enough evidence to show that of everyone wore one, it would help a little to slow it down - and is it really that inconvenient? Not really, it's just that people would rather forget all about the virus than actually do their bit to help.

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30 minutes ago, Indy said:

No it’s not, it’s an opinion which is based a on a vast majority of statements and data from last year by the NHS! How’s it nonsense? Tell me how many deaths by flu last year? As I’ve said people who keep banging on trying to control others freedom of choice is wrong
 

 

I was going to to stop arguing with you, but I couldn’t leave this one. We live in a society, where we are all bound by rules which have been agreed through a vaguely consensual process (don’t derail the discussion here by arguing about democracy please, that’s for another thread if you must). I am quite happy to “control others freedom” when it comes to smoking indoors, speeding, drink/drug driving, violence towards others and so on. I take it you’re not opposed to rules in those areas? Don’t try and frame this as some sort of restriction of personal freedom when it’s about saving the lives or long-term health of others.

Edited by Nuff Said

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9 minutes ago, Indy said:

You really need to chill, it’s not because of Covid, I have experienced a close elderly relative who died with heart related issues, had Covid on his death certificate as he tested positive. So you carry on believing what you want it’s you prerogative and I’ll still back my view as I say we’re far down the road from 2020. If you’re so concerned fine isolate yourself and take precautions. I expect you won’t be at Carrow road next weekend?

So every death certificate with Covid on it is wrong? Or just some of them? What proportion? 

 

Anecdotal information does not make an argument. Are you seriously suggesting that one example means all Covid death certificates are false? And you know for sure that your relative’s heart condition wasn’t made worse by Covid? 

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13 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I was going to to stop arguing with you, but I couldn’t leave this one. We live in a society, where we are all bound by rules which have been agreed through a vaguely consensual process (don’t derail the discussion here by arguing about democracy please, that’s for another thread if you must). I am quite happy to “control others freedom” when it comes to smoking indoors, speeding, drink/drug driving, violence towards others and so on. I take it you’re not opposed to rules in those areas? Don’t try and frame this as some sort of restriction of personal freedom when it’s about saving the lives or long-term health of others.

 Utterly pointless argument, those things you mention are laws in place, at present mass gatherings and events are open to people, it’s your and their choice.

We’re not in lockdown and we’re controlling things pretty well as we are! Hospitalisation and deaths are acceptable at this time.

Thats me done, for your info I wear a mask and continue doing so, I’ve regularly tested and put the results into the database as asked. But that’s my choice to do so.

Edited by Indy

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1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

So every death certificate with Covid on it is wrong? Or just some of them? What proportion? 

 

Anecdotal information does not make an argument. Are you seriously suggesting that one example means all Covid death certificates are false? And you know for sure that your relative’s heart condition wasn’t made worse by Covid? 

No I’m saying not all WITH Covid are directly related, no it was a direct heart attack for info!

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I think as someone has said before, a person could have a car crash, get admitted to hospital and upon admission test positive for covid, having been symptom free, (or even contract it in hospital) then die from the car crash injuries, and covid would be listed on their death cert. 

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