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The Real Buh

maybe *MAYBE* it’s time up for Teemu

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Posted (edited)

Its all very well saying Teemu had a short preseason, Covid etc but if he wasn't up to it, why did he start?

Are we saying he is indispensible?

its not a criticism about him its just saying what we saw and it apoeared to many people that he was ineffective.

Edited by keelansgrandad
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2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its all very well saying Teemu had a short preseason, Covid etc but if he wasn't up to it, why did he start?

Are we saying he is indispensible?

its not a criticism about him its just saying what we saw and it apoeared to many people that he was ineffective.

He played because part of becoming fit is to play. He is indispensable. He was not ineffective. This is Liverpool's defence remember. Even a recovering Van Dijk is one of the best CBs in the world. Teemu looked good in the 1st half and he'll be fit in a few games.

Sargent and Idah could have been brought in a bit earlier. Wouldn't have impacted the outcome much.

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8 minutes ago, Upo said:

He played because part of becoming fit is to play. He is indispensable. He was not ineffective. This is Liverpool's defence remember. Even a recovering Van Dijk is one of the best CBs in the world. Teemu looked good in the 1st half and he'll be fit in a few games.

Sargent and Idah could have been brought in a bit earlier. Wouldn't have impacted the outcome much.

Are you sure we are talking about the same game?

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8 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its OK saying he needs support but where is it coming from?

He hasn't gone bad overnight but has been a bit of a one trick pony for three years. He isn't going to win headers, he isn't going to win 50/50s. His expertise is running on the shoulder and finishing.

He might well get those chances against lesser teams but he has does have competition at long last.

Keelan is quite right. Yes, I know its early days but this opening game I am afraid exposed our shortcomings which we last experienced in the Premiership. This league with all the international players is mainly about big powerful guys, athletic and with pace. Perhaps not for the purist but they are the facts. We do not have such players. It was noticeable when our left back made some good runs he looked up and there was really no presence in the box. A striker in the mould of Grant Holt for instance. Not exactly pacey but I am sure he scared the living daylights out of most defenders.

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I was thinking this after the last Premier League season but he came back with a bang. I think that now, just like then, he isn't at peak sharpness yet but will still prove to be a threat when he gets there.

I don't think he'll reach double figures this time though. He isn't getting any younger, he's no longer an unknown quantity and I expect he'll get less time on the pitch with Sargent now around.

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Although he was never quite the same after his toe injury, it was pretty clear 2 seasons ago that the move up to The Prem was a step too far and that other sides knew exactly how to counter his threat.  Yes, good in the Championship, but sadly he’s never quite cut the mustard at the highest level with us, with other clubs (Celtic) or internationally (good against lesser sides but pretty much anonymous in the World Cup).  His goals to chances ratio is too low, and in the Prem those chances will be few and far between.

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24 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Although he was never quite the same after his toe injury, it was pretty clear 2 seasons ago that the move up to The Prem was a step too far and that other sides knew exactly how to counter his threat.  Yes, good in the Championship, but sadly he’s never quite cut the mustard at the highest level with us, with other clubs (Celtic) or internationally (good against lesser sides but pretty much anonymous in the World Cup).  His goals to chances ratio is too low, and in the Prem those chances will be few and far between.

That will always be very debatable. 11 in 18 prior to the toe injury. Coincidence? I don’t think so. And I’m not sure good strikers get ‘found out’, they seem to score year after year as Pukki has done thus far (injuries aside).

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50 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Although he was never quite the same after his toe injury, it was pretty clear 2 seasons ago that the move up to The Prem was a step too far and that other sides knew exactly how to counter his threat.  Yes, good in the Championship, but sadly he’s never quite cut the mustard at the highest level with us, with other clubs (Celtic) or internationally (good against lesser sides but pretty much anonymous in the World Cup).  His goals to chances ratio is too low, and in the Prem those chances will be few and far between.

11 goals in the Prem from a striker in a relegation team is a good return. He scored more than Aubameyang, was on par with Zaha and Rashford etc.

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Here we go again, I remember when people said the same about Grant Holt and Wessi. 

Pukki will be fine, he'll score the goals to keep us up.

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Agree with most comments Pukki isnt finished.  BUT if we are going to play with wingers bombing on there needs to be someone in the box with a bit of an aerial presence.  Think Sargent will become that man and see his minutes increasing week on week 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Note to everyone, I said maybe Pukki isn’t our set-in-stone PRINCIPLE striking option. Not that he’s finished. Not suggesting he’s **** or anything he’s still an excellent striker.

 

93D0C204-A451-47BA-8354-06FD75B052A4.jpeg
 

Yours pedantically. X

Edited by Nuff Said
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48 minutes ago, hogesar said:

11 goals in the Prem from a striker in a relegation team is a good return. He scored more than Aubameyang, was on par with Zaha and Rashford etc.

He was quite streaky that season- 6 goals in his first 5 games, then 8 without a goal, then 5 in 10 (two of which were penalties), then 15 without scoring. 

I know there are points to be made about his toe injury and what the rest of the team were providing but I do kind of agree that he was a touch easy for some teams to work out. He got goals v Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Liverpool and Leicester, all teams that played us on the front foot and left some space in behind for him to exploit. However the likes of Burnley, Palace, Brighton etc all neutered him with relative ease by sitting deeper and starving him of space in behind to exploit. 

 

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26 minutes ago, king canary said:

He was quite streaky that season- 6 goals in his first 5 games, then 8 without a goal, then 5 in 10 (two of which were penalties), then 15 without scoring. 

I know there are points to be made about his toe injury and what the rest of the team were providing but I do kind of agree that he was a touch easy for some teams to work out. He got goals v Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Liverpool and Leicester, all teams that played us on the front foot and left some space in behind for him to exploit. However the likes of Burnley, Palace, Brighton etc all neutered him with relative ease by sitting deeper and starving him of space in behind to exploit. 

 

I don't disagree that we needed an alternative to Pukki and hopefully Idah and Sargent will do just that. But i'm looking at the top scorers for last season...

Lacazette got 13, Chris Wood 12, Callum Wilson 12, Danny Ings 12, Iheanacho 12, Rashford 11, Zaha 11, Mane 11, Bale 11, Aubameyang 10, Sterling 10, Antonio 10, Benteke 10

I think the argument that Pukki failed in the prem last time is quite simply palpably untrue, he scored in the same realms as £20-£50 million pound players.

Basically, we won't get better than him for this season. Our alternatives might prove better in certain games, but Pukki really shouldn't be underestimated.

 

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I think Pukki was actually excellent on first half. He offered four chances for break through with his smart movement, but the pass simply was not made. I think he ran out of gas on second half though, which is no wonder due to hard pre-season.

The main issue at the moment is that there is no service yet. Rashica took the role of main man in moving the ball up (which he did well), however his final pass was almost always awful. It was like he didn't even have a look where to pass, but randomly sprayed the ball towards goal, hoping someone would be on that exact position. That could work if we have five men pushing to box to attack the ball, but with our style he needs to improve that part. When he improves his deliveries, I can see that Pukki will get to scoresheet as well. And even if he will keep on crossing blindly, there is good likelihood that he will learn where Pukki will likely move.

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I don’t think his time is up but was surprised to see him start. Adam Idah has had a good preseason and with some of the crosses going into the box on Saturday Teemu was no where near them. Just felt a Sargent or Idah could have maybe got on the end of a couple to test the keeper. Plus especially with his limited preseason and recent covid recovery i thought he might have been a better option from the bench. 

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I thought Pukki looked a handful in the first half, and made some good runs which players either didn't spot or chose not to work.  His stats prior to his injury in our last PL foray show that he can mix it comfortably at this level - although he is getting older so I'm not expecting quite the same sort of return this season.

I thought he looked anonymous in the second half though, and he was clearly out on his feet, he should have been replaced by Idah sooner.  Hopefully with a couple more weeks training and some more matches he, and the majority of the rest of the team, will be back to full fitness/match sharpness.

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Don't know why but I have a sneaking feeling that we will shock everyone by pulling a rabbit out of the hat for the forward line. Origi or someone similar. Just feel that if we are going to cement a place in the EPL now is the time to go for it. 

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So many so often willing to write Teemu off.

It's proven to be premature in the past and could well be again ... for some time to come.

OK, he's getting on a bit, and has seemed a bit more prone to injury but he still  always gives value for money .... and surprises at will.

It's therefore the natural order of things that younger players should replace him more and more, but that depends upon the performance of those players.

Even with less time on the pitch I wouldn't bet against TP getting to double figures this season, less workload might even help in this respect.

 

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17 hours ago, Upo said:

He played because part of becoming fit is to play. He is indispensable. He was not ineffective. This is Liverpool's defence remember. Even a recovering Van Dijk is one of the best CBs in the world. Teemu looked good in the 1st half and he'll be fit in a few games.

Sargent and Idah could have been brought in a bit earlier. Wouldn't have impacted the outcome much.

That is tantamount to saying despite the match being a "free hit" Norwich decided not to take the opportunity, instead preferring to use the game to get players match fit. If that really is the case I would look at Farke in a different light. If your argument is correct, and Farke decided to  accept we were not going to win by using clearly unfit players, why not use it as an opportunity to play all of the new signings so they get an opportunity to understand what the Premier League is all about, how we play etc. I understand why and I am in no way anti Teemu but to me he looked unfit and ineffective and I felt he should have been subbed at least 20 minutes earlier...........

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Posted (edited)

Dont agree at all, need to take account of where we are pre-season, way behind Liverpool for starters plus new players acclimatising.....

Some observations from Saturday..... when Tim sends the ball long it has to go wide rather than up the middle where Teemu isnt going to compete with huge players like Matip and Van Dijk.   When we play across the back, it needs to be at a much quicker tempo to give receiving full-backs more time on the ball....

As for up front, Teemu might not be the best option every game, for example, next week against Man City, the out ball may be long for say Adam to chase and hold up (at least for an hour)....  That said, thought Sargent looked very sharp, moves very well so that's promising..... good to have better competition though which will surely put jee up Teemu to keep his place.   

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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3 hours ago, hepphep said:

I think Pukki was actually excellent on first half. He offered four chances for break through with his smart movement, but the pass simply was not made. I think he ran out of gas on second half though, which is no wonder due to hard pre-season.

The main issue at the moment is that there is no service yet. Rashica took the role of main man in moving the ball up (which he did well), however his final pass was almost always awful. It was like he didn't even have a look where to pass, but randomly sprayed the ball towards goal, hoping someone would be on that exact position. That could work if we have five men pushing to box to attack the ball, but with our style he needs to improve that part. When he improves his deliveries, I can see that Pukki will get to scoresheet as well. And even if he will keep on crossing blindly, there is good likelihood that he will learn where Pukki will likely move.

Because Liverpool allowed width but Milner shut down any chance of our goto tactic of  through ball up the middle for Pukki to run onto. As has been stressed, we don't score goals from a striker in the box on the end of crosses.

Some on here didn't rate Toney but he think he has shown he is an all round striker.

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Thing is in previous seasons Buendia and Cantwell weren't out and out wingers and seldom crossed the ball. Now we have Rashica and hopefully soon Tzolis who are wingers and will cross. I'm not sure Pukki is the best striker to have in those circumstances. Alternatively we change the way they play to suit Pukki, which will take time. 

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24 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Thing is in previous seasons Buendia and Cantwell weren't out and out wingers and seldom crossed the ball. Now we have Rashica and hopefully soon Tzolis who are wingers and will cross. I'm not sure Pukki is the best striker to have in those circumstances. Alternatively we change the way they play to suit Pukki, which will take time. 

Perhaps the first indication of a changing of the guard, Pants? Sargent and Idah I suspect will benefit far better from such crosses. 

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1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

Thing is in previous seasons Buendia and Cantwell weren't out and out wingers and seldom crossed the ball. Now we have Rashica and hopefully soon Tzolis who are wingers and will cross. I'm not sure Pukki is the best striker to have in those circumstances. Alternatively we change the way they play to suit Pukki, which will take time. 

Thing is, Pukki can score from crosses but only a certain type- the kind of earlier cross that gets defenders facing their own goal where he can find a bit of space. 

However once a player gets to the byline Pukki is of little help- he's not about to outjump anyone. This where having Sargent on one wing could actually help- a taller, more physical presence who can attack the far post and give us more than one option in the box.

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A fully fit Pukki is a certain starter for us, perhaps with the new formation we could slightly change his position. If we are committing so many players forward we need someone to challenge for the crosses, otherwise we will get caught on the break. 

I know he's probably going but could Hughill be the type of player to upset Premiership defences?Many thought Grant Holt wouldn't be any good in the top division but he turned out to our most successful at this level in recent times. 

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Rashica swinging-in high crosses was less-than-helpful - that's not how Pukki likes to receive the ball is it? Thought that would've been worked on in training; when Pukki starts to get proper weighted through-balls from the new midfielders, normal service will be resumed.

It'll take Teemu a few games to achieve full fitness, so other options need to be made in the meantime. Idah & Sargent looked lively & bright...

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Pukki is Pukki, he's a legend at NCFC, especially as he was a free signing.

However I don't think it's a guarantee he should be first choice every game. He certainly needs to lead from the front in goals. He'll get sharper and our new players will adapt.

That said, I don't believe we spent £8.5m plus on Sargent to p[lay 2nd fiddle all season. I expect him to really push Pukki, and hope we do rotate much more between Pukki, Sargent & Idah

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11 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

Pukki is Pukki, he's a legend at NCFC, especially as he was a free signing.

However I don't think it's a guarantee he should be first choice every game. He certainly needs to lead from the front in goals. He'll get sharper and our new players will adapt.

That said, I don't believe we spent £8.5m plus on Sargent to p[lay 2nd fiddle all season. I expect him to really push Pukki, and hope we do rotate much more between Pukki, Sargent & Idah

Can see us going  3 4 3 in games we are chasing using them as our front 3.

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Sadly Pukki has been worked out from 2 years ago I feel, I fancy J.S to score more this season and Idah to get into double figures as well. Well I can hope anyway.

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I think a few of you need to learn the difference between people suggesting he's not a nailed on starter currently with other options now available and thinking that means people are saying he's finished (not Finnish 😉).

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