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Crabbycanary3

The homophobic chant at Billy Gilmour

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Just now, horsefly said:

You are seriously missing the point. The abuse the black players recieved tied their failure to score to the colour of their skin. No white player has suffered that form of racist abuse tying their failure to score to the colour of their skin. It is thus NOT remotely a conflation to tie the two things together when that is precisely what the racists are doing. So it is wrong simply to assert that "the white player would have received the same abuse". 

I'm talking about the chants, not the social media abuse. So yes the white player would've received the same abuse in the stands, in fact probably more because people would probably feel more free to be able to do it without being accused of racism...

And no I'm not missing the point, you want to see no abuse of any kind from the stands to black players because they've received a torrent of horrible stuff in recent months on social media, fair enough.

I personally prefer the idea of everyone being fair game for banter at football matches, as long as its in good jest. I just don't see how treading on egg-shells and not being able to give out any stick - in a very normal way - is helping anything?

I don't think making everything an issue of racism is necessary or helping... 

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Just now, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...and there we go....when losing an argument, turn to punctuation.

How about you ask Leeds fans if their chant was racially motivated?

My spelling and punctuation comment was clearly linked to your abuse in calling me an "idiot". Yet again you display your inability to grasp the plainly obvious. Thanks for making my point so obvious for all to see.

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6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

More than happy for people to compare our respective posts. Perhaps you can ask for a volunteer to correct your profligate spelling and punctuation errors while you're at it. It might give you a little more credibility when you accuse others of being an idiot.

...if this thread is any kind of snapshot of 'people' comparing posts, there doesnt appear to be a great deal of support for your frankly ridiculous assertion

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9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

More than happy for people to compare our respective posts. Perhaps you can ask for a volunteer to correct your profligate spelling and punctuation errors while you're at it. It might give you a little more credibility when you accuse others of being an idiot.

It's received wisdom to get your own house in order if you're going to play that game 😉

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3 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I'm talking about the chants, not the social media abuse. So yes the white player would've received the same abuse in the stands, in fact probably more because people would probably feel more free to be able to do it without being accused of racism...

And no I'm not missing the point, you want to see no abuse of any kind from the stands to black players because they've received a torrent of horrible stuff in recent months on social media, fair enough.

I personally prefer the idea of everyone being fair game for banter at football matches, as long as its in good jest. I just don't see how treading on egg-shells and not being able to give out any stick - in a very normal way - is helping anything?

I don't think making everything an issue of racism is necessary or helping... 

I'm afraid you are missing the point. The specific act of missing the penalties in the Euros was specifically linked to a torrent of racist abuse against the players who missed those penalties. So there is no getting away from that connection between a chant that refers to those specific players and that specific event and the racist abuse it engendered.

Happy will be the day when normal crowd banter is free of these sorts of connections but at this particular moment in football history that just isn't the case. Sadly it is certainly not the case with these particular players.

 

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8 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

It's received wisdom to get your own house in order if you're going to play that game 😉

Haha! touche! One error ain't that bad for a long and very tedious session feeling compelled to defend ant-racism in football. Feel free to list all the solecisms of the other guy if you have the time.

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2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Haha! touche! One error ain't that bad for a long and very tedious session feeling compelled to defend ant-racism in football. Feel free to list all the solecisms of the other guy if you have the time.

Maybe you should have spent more time providing proof of your accusation rather than looking for punctuation errors?

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I'd take a million errors in grammar over an error in world view so vast. Each to their own though.

#wearamask #blm #twitterdadopinionsmattertoo

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19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm afraid you are missing the point. The specific act of missing the penalties in the Euros was specifically linked to a torrent of racist abuse against the players who missed those penalties. So there is no getting away from that connection between a chant that refers to those specific players and that specific event and the racist abuse it engendered.

Happy will be the day when normal crowd banter is free of these sorts of connections but at this particular moment in football history that just isn't the case. Sadly it is certainly not the case with these particular players.

 

But I do get that. And I would also much prefer to see the kind of reception Saka got at Brentford then I would from the Leeds fans. However it’s Leeds v United, it’s never going to happen in that fixture (props to the Spurs fans to Saka mind in pre season), but I don’t think it’s going out of bounds. If it were an Ipswich player coming on at Carrow Road like Saka at Brentford I can’t imagine the response would be positive either.

Fortunately I don’t think we need to worry about any Ipswich players missing any high profile penalties for our national team any time soon, or come to think of it- even playing at Carrow Road in the first place! 

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

As far as I remember they were in the team that didn't win. 

That's totally not the point, as you well know. You've been given plenty of examples of previous white players who have received utter dogs abuse for penalty misses (not just for being in the side), but have chosen to ignore them as that doesn't seem to fit this agenda of yours, which is just as intolerable as the racists. No one....... NO ONE is denying those 3 lads didn't suffer intolerable racist abuse after the final, but calling others racist without justification or proof is disgusting, and as much part of the problem as opposed to the cure. 

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1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

That's totally not the point, as you well know. You've been given plenty of examples of previous white players who have received utter dogs abuse for penalty misses (not just for being in the side), but have chosen to ignore them as that doesn't seem to fit this agenda of yours, which is just as intolerable as the racists. No one....... NO ONE is denying those 3 lads didn't suffer intolerable racist abuse after the final, but calling others racist without justification or proof is disgusting, and as much part of the problem as opposed to the cure. 

...and another +1 for this being a ridiculous assertion

Bang On

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Footage doing the rounds on Twitter of Man City fans signing this chant in the concourse at White Hart Lane today.

Does the crusader on this thread want to accuse them of being racist too?....or could it just be a bit of Manchester rivalry

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

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1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

That's totally not the point, as you well know. You've been given plenty of examples of previous white players who have received utter dogs abuse for penalty misses (not just for being in the side), but have chosen to ignore them as that doesn't seem to fit this agenda of yours, which is just as intolerable as the racists. No one....... NO ONE is denying those 3 lads didn't suffer intolerable racist abuse after the final, but calling others racist without justification or proof is disgusting, and as much part of the problem as opposed to the cure. 

Again you are simply displaying a willing ignorance of the FACT that the penalty misses by those three players was blamed, in a torrent of racist abuse, on the colour of their skin. NO white player has ever endured that. I condemn all abuse of all players and you quite disgracefully ignore the fact that I have never supported the abuse of any player of any race, ethnicity, or sexuality. However, the subject matter of this part of the discussion was focused on racist abuse, so that's exactly what I've responded to (strange as it may seem to you).

Just as it is impossible to disentangle the hideous chant of "Always the victims, it's never your fault" from its specific use to taunt Liverpool fans over the Hillsborough tragedy (irrespective of what individual fans might think they are doing by chanting it), so is it impossible to chant the specific abuse about the penalty misses aimed at these particular players without evoking the torrent of racist abuse with which it is forever entangled. It's very simple, if you don't want to be associated with racist abuse don't engage in chanting abuse about an incident that remains forever associated with it. There are, after all, plenty of other possibilities for fans to banter with players. If any of those three players turns out at CR and skies the ball over the bar from six-yards, I will happily join in with the cheers of derision with the rest of the crowd. What I certainly won't do is chant along with abuse of those players about their penalty misses given the full knowledge I have of the racism with which that particular episode in their careers is associated. Just as I wouldn't chant "Always the victims, it's never your fault" because I know full well of it's use to abuse Liverpool victims of the Hillsborough disaster. The simple linguistic truth is that all of our language gets its meaning from its use in the public sphere, and, like it or not, no individual gets to claim that they are using it with a specific individual meaning in isolation from that public sphere. From the fact that some Leeds fans may well have "thought" they were using the chant in a non-racist way it does not remotely follow that what they were engaged in was not a racist act. How many examples from the world do you need to understand this very simple point? Racism is not the sole province of the swastika tattooed skin head. Even the most well-meaning and decent human beings can find themselves unwillingly enmeshed in racist acts and language (Is there anyone who has not heard a non-racist elderly relative unwittingly use language that is now recognised as racist (I doubt it). 

So do try to get things right instead of failing to read what I had said carefully enough, and throwing around disgraceful insults based on a complete fabrication of what I said. What I said was the chanting of that particular abuse was racist because of the inextricable connection the penalty misses have with the torrent of racist abuse heaped on those players as a result. Nothing in that claim implies that the individuals who engaged in that chanting are properly characterised as individuals with a racist agenda. I suspect even the the most ardent anti-racists will have found themselves at times unknowingly complicit with racist acts or assumptions. The art is to be suitably open-minded enough to listen and learn when those acts and assumptions are pointed out as having racist connotations. It really ought not to have been very difficult to recognise the obvious racist connotations of yesterday's abuse, but then it seems a good number of football fans want to claim a right not to have to consider the implications of what they say and do.

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Just now, horsefly said:

Again you are simply displaying a willing ignorance of the FACT that the penalty misses by those three players was blamed, in a torrent of racist abuse, on the colour of their skin. NO white player has ever endured that. I condemn all abuse of all players and you quite disgracefully ignore the fact that I have never supported the abuse of any player of any race, ethnicity, or sexuality. However, the subject matter of this part of the discussion was focused on racist abuse, so that's exactly what I've responded to (strange as it may seem to you).

Just as it is impossible to disentangle the hideous chant of "Always the victims, it's never your fault" from its specific use to taunt Liverpool fans over the Hillsborough tragedy (irrespective of what individual fans might think they are doing by chanting it), so is it impossible to chant the specific abuse about the penalty misses aimed at these particular players without evoking the torrent of racist abuse with which it is forever entangled. It's very simple, if you don't want to be associated with racist abuse don't engage in chanting abuse about an incident that remains forever associated with it. There are, after all, plenty of other possibilities for fans to banter with players. If any of those three players turns out at CR and skies the ball over the bar from six-yards, I will happily join in with the cheers of derision with the rest of the crowd. What I certainly won't do is chant along with abuse of those players about their penalty misses given the full knowledge I have of the racism with which that particular episode in their careers is associated. Just as I wouldn't chant "Always the victims, it's never your fault" because I know full well of it's use to abuse Liverpool victims of the Hillsborough disaster. The simple linguistic truth is that all of our language gets its meaning from its use in the public sphere, and, like it or not, no individual gets to claim that they are using it with a specific individual meaning in isolation from that public sphere. From the fact that some Leeds fans may well have "thought" they were using the chant in a non-racist way it does not remotely follow that what they were engaged in was not a racist act. How many examples from the world do you need to understand this very simple point? Racism is not the sole province of the swastika tattooed skin head. Even the most well-meaning and decent human beings can find themselves unwillingly enmeshed in racist acts and language (Is there anyone who has not heard a non-racist elderly relative unwittingly use language that is now recognised as racist (I doubt it). 

So do try to get things right instead of failing to read what I had said carefully enough, and throwing around disgraceful insults based on a complete fabrication of what I said. What I said was the chanting of that particular abuse was racist because of the inextricable connection the penalty misses have with the torrent of racist abuse heaped on those players as a result. Nothing in that claim implies that the individuals who engaged in that chanting are properly characterised as individuals with a racist agenda. I suspect even the the most ardent anti-racists will have found themselves at times unknowingly complicit with racist acts or assumptions. The art is to be suitably open-minded enough to listen and learn when those acts and assumptions are pointed out as having racist connotations. It really ought not to have been very difficult to recognise the obvious racist connotations of yesterday's abuse, but then it seems a good number of football fans want to claim a right not to have to consider the implications of what they say and do.

No idea what you've put chap, simply couldn't be arsed to read that preachy essay you've written there. Enjoy the rest of your evening 👍

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2 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

No idea what you've put chap, simply couldn't be arsed to read that preachy essay you've written there. Enjoy the rest of your evening 👍

I think the youngsters use the expression TL:DR (*) Ken. 

(*) Too long : didnt read. 

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2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Footage doing the rounds on Twitter of Man City fans signing this chant in the concourse at White Hart Lane today.

Does the crusader on this thread want to accuse them of being racist too?....or could it just be a bit of Manchester rivalry

I'll leave you to fester in your sadly confined little mind with the simple observation that you're dumb enough to use the pejorative word "crusader" in a post about racism.

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If only all you had to do to not get racially abused was score a penalty. 

How simple would that be? 

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1 minute ago, Greavsy said:

I think the youngsters use the expression TL:DR (*) Ken. 

(*) Too long : didnt read. 

Glad you explained, would never have got what that stood for 😂 pesky kids... 

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1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

Glad you explained, would never have got what that stood for 😂 pesky kids... 

I had to look it up a while ago Ken. Thought Id share the knowledge, and im glad to have put it to use! 

Its interchangeable too - can be TL:DR or DR:TL just to mix it up! who knew! 

Edited by Greavsy
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12 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

No idea what you've put chap, simply couldn't be arsed to read that preachy essay you've written there. Enjoy the rest of your evening 👍

Well it's certaily clear from all your posts that reading is not one of your strengths. Particularly when the reading required challenges your bigoted ill-thought-out tripe.

Edited by horsefly

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7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'll leave you to fester in your sadly confined little mind with the simple observation that you're dumb enough to use the pejorative word "crusader" in a post about racism.

You've asked that 'people' judge relative posts

...so far not many 'people' are in agreement with you...if any

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1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Well it's certaily clear from all your posts that reading is not one of your strengths. Particularly when the reading required challenges your bigoted tripe.

How to win friends and influence people! 

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1 minute ago, Greavsy said:

How to win friends and influence people! 

You should know a lot about that given your record.

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Just now, horsefly said:

You should know a lot about that given your record.

Thanks! Appreciate that Bill! 

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19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Well it's certaily clear from all your posts that reading is not one of your strengths. Particularly when the reading required challenges your bigoted tripe.

Bit of a jump to accuse him of 'bigoted tripe'

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16 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Thanks! Appreciate that Bill

Having read all four pages i was having exactly the same thought.

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20 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Well it's certaily clear from all your posts that reading is not one of your strengths. Particularly when the reading required challenges your bigoted ill-thought-out tripe.

You wouldn't have the balls to call me a bigot in real life I promise you, kindly don't do so on here 🤷‍♂️. No one has made bigoted comments, we're simply requiring you to prove the chants are racist? I haven't actually said some of the fans weren't racially motivated yesterday, but you're claiming they all were (hmm.... Slightly ironic actually), so prove it. I have provided you with many examples of dogs abuse to white footballers after tournaments, again you've chosen to ignore this. 

Stick to your Bill character, it's more amusing than your horse**** one 👍

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4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Bit of a jump to accuse him of 'bigoted tripe'

You either agree with Billy or you are a racist bigoted right wing nut job, a binary poster.

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