McLean

[dylanisabaddog 4,868]

3 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Out of interest, if we played our usual 4-2-3-1 who would be your 2?

If we went 4-3-3 who would be your 3?

Lees-Melou plus one other. That's impossible to say as we've seen so little of the new players and we don't know what agreement we've made about Gilmour. Chelsea forums suggest that he is seen as a long term replacement for Kante so possibly it will be him. 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

I see friendly friday is off to a good start

Well, it is also the 13th so things were bound to go wrong

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

34 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Have you been on the internet before..?

It's okay then? 

[hertfordyellow 460]

Quite happy to see Kenny on the team sheet most weeks. A leader, won't be bullied, neat and tidy in possession , covers the yards, moves the ball quickly. Important to our success last season,  will be involved if fit, probably in a midfield 3.

 

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

8 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

It's okay then? 

It's normal.

I'm not a fan of it and don't do it myself, but trying to compare the internet with the real world is pretty futile - they are different places. 

Would you have made such a provocative statement about Kenny to a room full of strangers in the real world?  I doubt few people here would proclaim their thoughts about Norwich so ferociously and with such certainty to a room full of a couple of thousand strangers in the 'real world'.

[king canary 7,578]

57 minutes ago, chicken said:

No exactly really.

For example, those stats don't break down whether there were any formation changes during the game. How many of those were substitute appearances etc.

It might be that a team started 4-3-3 but then fell into a more 4-3-2-1 after 20mins as it wasn't working.

Without context the stats only paint a part of the picture. They are not empirical at all. And having looked at the leagues own match reports and starting formations, I would say the source TVB shared isn't accurate - not in my favour particularly but it certainly isn't accurate in it's stats.

Anyone that relies entirely upon stats is in trouble. Anyone who has done any research of any decent level will know that you can't just provide stats and say - "proven".

Two in one hundred people suffer side effects. - Great stat, but do those two people across hundreds have any commonality? If you don't have an answer, that's a concern. Mainly because no groups of 100 people are the same, so you need to know whether that is an accurate ratio or whether they share something that might be represented by a larger percentage in the general population.

Context is vital.

One thing is for certain though, Werder Bremen did not have a settled formation last season. 3-4-2-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-4-2... you name it, they pretty much tried it. Which is odd, because at times they were doing ok, scoring multiple goals in a game etc.

I would say the context is provided by the WyScout data Bethnal posted- that is a professional website used by clubs so you'd imagine their data is based on actually watching the games and seeing the positions people are playing in. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

10 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

It's normal.

I'm not a fan of it and don't do it myself, but trying to compare the internet with the real world is pretty futile - they are different places. 

Would you have made such a provocative statement about Kenny to a room full of strangers in the real world?  I doubt few people here would proclaim their thoughts about Norwich so ferociously and with such certainty to a room full of a couple of thousand strangers in the 'real world'.

I'd argue the forum is set up to discuss Norwich City with strangers though? It's not set up to swear at people you disagree with. And that is how I would frame it if I was discussing Kenny's abilities with anyone.

I have a mate who has said virtually the exact same thing about Hanley to me, I really rate Hanley, but in no way would I react like that to him or anyone else because of a difference of opinion on a sportsperson. It's weird.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

I think McLean probably gets into our strongest team as the squad currently stands, but will be the first casualty if/when sign the elusive defensive midfielder.

That pretty much sums up McLean for me: he's very good at Championship level and a decent player to have in the squad in the Premier League, but I'm not convinced he's a 'starter in the best XI' Premier League midfielder.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

13 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I think McLean probably gets into our strongest team as the squad currently stands, but will be the first casualty if/when sign the elusive defensive midfielder.

That pretty much sums up McLean for me: he's very good at Championship level and a decent player to have in the squad in the Premier League, but I'm not convinced he's a 'starter in the best XI' Premier League midfielder.

Agreed 100%.

[pete 318]

Kenny Mac may well be our most important player that DM everyone wants, watch this space.  Get well soon Kenny we need you.

[Deptford Yellow 258]

Farke rates him ... ...

[chicken 2,604]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I would say the context is provided by the WyScout data Bethnal posted- that is a professional website used by clubs so you'd imagine their data is based on actually watching the games and seeing the positions people are playing in. 

So that backs up the views of the Werder Bremen fan who reflected their view that Sargent had been played elsewhere as much if not more than up front.

As I have stated elsewhere about valuations of actual sales and of players, Transfermarkt or whatever it is called, is incredibly unreliable. I would rate it a worse source of information than wikipedia.

Either way, what we are talking about is a 21 year old player who is versatile and was one of the two best performers in a Bremen side that didn't have a consistent formation. 

[chicken 2,604]

3 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Shameless plug time! I wrote about Josh Sargent here;

https://byag.medium.com/josh-sargent-what-is-he-good-for-ba6c95c654ff

WyScout, a far more reliable source than Transfermarkt, lists Sargent as playing 500 minutes on the wing (about equally split between left and right) and 500 minutes as an attacking midfielder and 1,500 minutes as a striker. Bremen did often play with two strikers though and Sargent would be the one tasked with dropping deeper. 

There is also a heatmap that shows that the majority of his touches were in the wide right/central area of the pitch.

He was not the main focal point of scoring from Bremen, although ended up their joint top scorer. 

I wanted to respond to this earlier but didn't have time.

Please learn from the example Bethnal sets. If you have an opinion make sure you have done more than just thought "I darn fink he's vary goood". Other people, including the head coach, the other first team coaches and the sporting director will all know who is and who isn't good enough and they are infinitely better placed than us to say.

I didn't rate Bamford, I still struggle to admit he's half decent. However, despite several flops in terms of moves, he has certainly done ok for himself in the last couple of seasons.

Never, ever just look at face value stats when they don't answer nearly enough questions. Bethnal has gone beyond that and looked for more detailed and reliable stats - which IMHO is just fantastic. The stats back up what the Werder Bremen fan was saying too - which means both are more reliable a source of information than transfermarkt - I really wish people wouldn't rely on that. It seems more FIFA and less reliable than wikipedia.

[king canary 7,578]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

So that backs up the views of the Werder Bremen fan who reflected their view that Sargent had been played elsewhere as much if not more than up front.

Errm, not really no. His stats have him playing 1500 minutes upfront and 1000 minutes elsewhere, suggesting TVB was correct on where he's played. 

[chicken 2,604]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Errm, not really no. His stats have him playing 1500 minutes upfront and 1000 minutes elsewhere, suggesting TVB was correct on where he's played. 

Not precisely. Bethnal clearly states that the 1500mins also includes playing in the "second striker" position... which is more a false 9. Which is often described as an AM. Certainly not an out and out striker.

TVB was not correct as the stats he provided were by far and a way no where near as accurate as Bethnal's.

Not only that, it is clear that you haven't looked at Bethnal's piece:


Heat map of Sargents season. You'll not that he spent a lot of time in the right wing position according to that. More than up front.



I seriously recommend you go and read his blog post because it is far, far, far superior than anything you or TVB have countered with here. More of your lovely statistics like the images above but also contextualised. Look through the match reports I linked to, note how often Sargent played in the same position in the same formation for more than a handful of games in a row.

Or... just stick to the transfermarkt stats and know they are wrong and are only being used because they support an agenda. An agenda that says a player we have signed is rubbish because he isn't a prolific scorer at 21. That he has no left foot and isn't very quick. At which point you may just want to make up some other silly things to throw at him as well.

[king canary 7,578]

22 minutes ago, chicken said:

Not precisely. Bethnal clearly states that the 1500mins also includes playing in the "second striker" position... which is more a false 9. Which is often described as an AM. Certainly not an out and out striker.

TVB was not correct as the stats he provided were by far and a way no where near as accurate as Bethnal's.

Not only that, it is clear that you haven't looked at Bethnal's piece:


Heat map of Sargents season. You'll not that he spent a lot of time in the right wing position according to that. More than up front.



I seriously recommend you go and read his blog post because it is far, far, far superior than anything you or TVB have countered with here. More of your lovely statistics like the images above but also contextualised. Look through the match reports I linked to, note how often Sargent played in the same position in the same formation for more than a handful of games in a row.

Or... just stick to the transfermarkt stats and know they are wrong and are only being used because they support an agenda. An agenda that says a player we have signed is rubbish because he isn't a prolific scorer at 21. That he has no left foot and isn't very quick. At which point you may just want to make up some other silly things to throw at him as well.

Firstly, I've already read the piece and secondly I don't have agenda. You were the one claimed he'd mainly been deployed as an AM with zero evidence before patronisingly demanding everyone else post sources,  despite providing none yourself. 

We're getting into semantics here in that you've decided playing as a slightly deeper lying striker means he actually playing as a midfielder. I'd disagree with that, seemingly so do wyscout who have a separate section for attacking midfielder, hence the 500 minutes logged there.

[chicken 2,604]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Firstly, I've already read the piece and secondly I don't have agenda. You were the one claimed he'd mainly been deployed as an AM with zero evidence before patronisingly demanding everyone else post sources,  despite providing none yourself. 

We're getting into semantics here in that you've decided playing as a slightly deeper lying striker means he actually playing as a midfielder. I'd disagree with that, seemingly so do wyscout who have a separate section for attacking midfielder, hence the 500 minutes logged there.

Despite the heat map which backs it up? Along with Bethnal saying in many of the 2 up front games, where even wyscout will suggest he was a striker, he often dropped and played a lot deeper? 

You didn't provide anything either. I have provided evidence on other things elsewhere. As I stated, I relied upon "anecdotal" evidence from someone who watched Bremen last season - his testimonial is reflected in the heatmap and the information provided by Bethnal.

Sorry, but you appear to be more intent on arguing that I am incorrect than actually having an opinion of your own. Which is fine, but makes your argument nothing about reality.

 

[shefcanary 2,387]

I really struggle with Kenny.  I still think he's a jack of all trades, master of none.  As Wacky said more eloquently than the OP, if he does play the whole season I fear it is because we have failed to find a couple more "masters" rather than Kenny has been playing fantastically.  It's not to say that Kenny isn't a brilliant player to have in your squad, just that my aspiration for Norwich is so much higher than relying on Kenny. 

But I yet may be proved wrong and he could become our Goss of the 20's.  It took Jeremy a good 10 years to finally break through after all.

[shefcanary 2,387]

And ..... interestingly not a first team starting pick.  

[Fuzzar 1,702]

Coming back from injury. I think he'd have started if not. 

[Billyboybunters 26]

Better player than Rupp in my view, and provides more balance in the middle with the left foot. Happy to have him back in when fit.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

I'll say it again:-  If Kenny McLean plays 37 times for us this season like he did in the last PL campaign we will be relegated.

 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

McLean isn’t good enough for this level. Decent champs midfielder. But Farke won’t drop him. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

18 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

McLean isn’t good enough for this level. Decent champs midfielder. But Farke won’t drop him. 

This.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

If Kenny McLean plays 37 times for us this season like he did in the last PL campaign we will be relegated.

[Alfie54 76]

And still we don’t play Sorenson 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,251]

Leitner was a much better player than Mclean. 

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

I do think Kenny has a few too mistakes in him for this level. A liability. Up until he lost the ball leading directly to their 2nd goal I thought we might get 1 back. He's a good player but not quite good enough for this level.

[shaunieboy77 73]

Farke clearly rates him, continually overlooking Sorensen who was deemed good enough to play out of position but not it would seem in his natural position. Not saying he's the answer but he's an alternative.

[Clever Farke 64]

Kenny’s performance stank today. Apart from the obvious he took one of the worst free kicks I think I’ve ever seen. Farke was incandescent. He’s a good champs player but this is just beyond him. Incredibly I would still rather have him than Rupp!