McLean

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

5 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

All good points, well made. I think Rupp will be fine as well if he can stay fit.

Massively looking forward to PLM and hope the Gilmour hype is real.

It's going to be tough but we're better placed than two years ago I think.

We're definitely better-placed as it stands IMO - there's a lot more attacking depth in theory, and also more variety in there. Assuming one of Tzolis, Rashica, Dowell and Sargent step up, we're less dependent on one player (who we sold anyway in Buendia) and also we seem to have a faster line-up of attackers. Rashica definitely has a turn of pace on him, Sargent doesn't look much slower. Buendia was nippy at best but you'd hardly confuse him with a bona-fide speedster. Throw in the far stronger defensive record and a more experienced back-line and assuming we don't lose three centre-halves at once, we shouldn't concede 75 goals again.

We probably won't be quite as neat and tidy in terms of trying to pick through defences, but if anything, we suffered quite badly from that as PL defences were good enough at keeping us at arms' length. But the extra pace should help us get up the field a bit, relieve pressure on our back line, and not be pushed onto the back foot so much.

And failing that, there's always room for one of our two runaway express trains, Hernandez or Placheta, on the bench.

[Canary dwarf 221]

Kenny is underrated by many Norwich fans , he has a good all round game if I do have a criticism of him , it's he should score more often than he does , but I like him and as someone else posted he has improved every season , df likes him and is not afraid to drop him if he is not performing.

[king canary 7,605]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think it's more to do with losing three centre-halves at once with the corresponding effect that has on the midfield (as usually defensive midfielders get pushed into defence to shore it up) and then attacking midfielders get brought back. Farke really didn't have many options last time in the Premier League except for playing in a low block and hoping a counter stuck, but we didn't have much pace to get a counter to stick either.

That was why Hernandez looked our best player in Project Restart - he was our fastest and was direct with it.

Out of interest, do you think our central defensive injuries had an effect on us last season? Just you never mention it 😉 

[chicken 2,624]

1 minute ago, Grantham yellow said:

Ok just tried having a look at other teams midfielders and previous years top midfielders in the Premiership. Has any one looked at Brentford’s or Brighton’s etc. New faces coming in all over the place. Some with no Premiership experience. 
Kenny can and will do a job for us.

How can Salah, Son & Havertz be listed as midfielders I’ll never know.

Generally because you get a few midfield roles.
- CM: Vrancic, players that tend to hold a position in more central areas and hover around the outside of the box, they do a bit of everything but none with any priority, seems to be a bit of an unfashionable role these days with very few 4-4-2's. 
- Box-to-box: Etuhu, Damien Francis, Gerrard players with a real engine but also the ability to get from one end of the pitch to the other, quickly and consistently to help break up play and be part of and on the end of attacks.
- Holding midfielder: (Not to be confused with defensive midfieler) David Fox, Ian Crook - their job is to pick up the bits and pieces and short passes from the defence and transition it forwards. Some folks refer to really good passers of the ball in this role as deep lying playmakers. Often in that case they are players who's legs have gone but still have that creative flair like Pirlo.
- Defensive midfielder:  Tettey, Gary Holt, Makelele. The main difference between a defensive midfielder and a holding midfielder is that a defensive one is there as an enforcer. They play like an advanced defender. Their role is primarily to brake up play and to help stop oppositions getting a rhythm and essentially to help dominate the defensive 3rd. 
- Attacking midfielder: Cantwell, Dowell, Buendia. These days this seems to get a bit blurred with the use of "forward". An attack midfielder is the opposite to a defensive midfielder, their primary role is to link up and support the striker/strikers. Playmaking, creating chances, joining in the goal scoring. Usually deployed centrally, can be in a traditional 4-4-2 as one of the two CM's. And advanced AM is a No.10, played just behind the striker/strikers. 
- Winger: Ruel Fox, Darren Eadie, Hernandez, Placheta - again, sometimes called a "forward". Due to the 4-2-3-1 formation we have used a lot under Farke it can sometimes be difficult to see what the difference between a winger and an AM is due to those three positions behind Pukki often involving at least two of the players being relatively wide. Traditionally wingers have mainly operated in the wide "channel" areas and their primary role is to provide chances from the wide positions through crosses or getting to the by-line to then cut the ball back into the box.

Salah was a wide player, I believe, before being converted to a striker. Though he often plays wide of the attacking three at Liverpool as well, with Mane on the other side who played on the wing for Southampton. Both drop back and help out the midfield. Same as Havertz plays deeper than the strikers as an AM. Son is also played in an AM role, whether he's more a natural striker or not is a worthy discussion.

Obviously, those are roles more than definitions of players. These days players can play multiple roles, some even at the same time. Patrick Viera, Yaya Toure and Gerrard could make the defensive midfielder look box to box and under sustained pressure even an attacking mid when they didn't have to be as defensive. Scholes could play holding mid and AM, but many still joke at his lack of tackling ability. Kante is a defensive midfielder who can join in attacks. It's all flexible. 

[hogesar 9,658]

58 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

If McLean plays all 38 games it wouldn't be an issue in my eyes. He's is easily good enough to be a Premier League player and is so important to the way Farke wants to play. McClean is good in the tackle, a good passer, good in the air and has the engine to get up and down the pitch for 90 mins.

Never understood the McLean hate, I guess it is due to him playing a fairly unglamorous role of being a bit of a shuttler - but it would cost close to £10m to get someone in as good as him.

Yeah, for me he's probably our best all-round midfielder. Maybe Lees-Melou will take that spot but haven't seen enough of him to know.

[dylanisabaddog 4,918]

Thankfully the original poster is not the coach. Farke rates McLean and that's all that matters. Webber as well, he was quoted as being astonished that a Premier League club didn't try to buy Kenny last summer 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

Out of interest, do you think our central defensive injuries had an effect on us last season? Just you never mention it 😉 

Well, plenty of others keep saying how bloody **** we were without mentioning it. Pretty key factor when losing a truckload of centre-halves, no? 😉

[Worthy Nigelton 1,044]

11 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Thankfully the original poster is not the coach. Farke rates McLean and that's all that matters. Webber as well, he was quoted as being astonished that a Premier League club didn't try to buy Kenny last summer 

Out of interest, if we played our usual 4-2-3-1 who would be your 2?

If we went 4-3-3 who would be your 3?

[Yellow Wal 314]

2 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

If Kenny McLean plays 37 times for us this season like he did in the last PL campaign we will be relegated.

Discuss.

I'll be quite happy if Kenny McLean plays 37 times in our first team this season because that will mean that Daniel Farke believes him to be the best player for the role asked of him. And considering the competition it will also mean that Kenny will be playing very well, he will have to, to retain his place.

[Grantham yellow 20]

Thanks for your insight Chicken. This is not meaning to be derogatory to yourself but I did know that. I know I’m a newbie on here but I am 58 😳 and have followed football since the early 70’s

My point being that having just looked at the relevant squads, both Salah and Son are listed officially by their clubs as forwards. Yes they may play out wide and track back and help their midfield but ultimately they are forwards.

I admit I got Haveartz wrong he is listed as an attacking midfielder.

I suppose what I was trying to say was information can be delivered in such a way to suit any purpose, stats related, depending where you read it. I was searching for current squad midfielders to compare against Kenny as per the OP.

[The Bristol Nest 513]

Kenny was one of our best players last time around and has just enjoyed a very good season in the Champs. Some people just can't, don't or won't see it. 

A bit like Hanley I suppose.

[chicken 2,624]

8 minutes ago, Grantham yellow said:

Thanks for your insight Chicken. This is not meaning to be derogatory to yourself but I did know that. I know I’m a newbie on here but I am 58 😳 and have followed football since the early 70’s

My point being that having just looked at the relevant squads, both Salah and Son are listed officially by their clubs as forwards. Yes they may play out wide and track back and help their midfield but ultimately they are forwards.

I admit I got Haveartz wrong he is listed as an attacking midfielder.

I suppose what I was trying to say was information can be delivered in such a way to suit any purpose, stats related, depending where you read it. I was searching for current squad midfielders to compare against Kenny as per the OP.

No probs. I am just aware that a good number of fans don't have that knowledge, and that isn't to be horrible, I just see a few comments here and there that suggest things like "McLean is a defensive midfielder" because he has regularly played in one of our two deeper positions as part of a "double pivot".

I've always said that stats are nothing without context, which people tend to give me grief for. Mainly for my hate of the "chances created" stat. Or just looking at the "assist" stat without context of things like set pieces (Buendia getting almost half of his premier league assists from set pieces for example).

Sargent is another, people slating his lack of goals without applying the context that he has mainly been deployed as an AM in the last season or so.

McLean's stats are good. And I feel he has hugely improved over the last season. He deserves his shot in the Premier League as a result. I think because he rarely does anything spectacularly people perhaps don't recognise what he does do. I have been guilty of that myself. And there are times, especially in the Premier League season, where I felt he gave up chasing too soon or was just not quick enough responding.

Those things are not determined by the level we are playing at, and last season he improved. And if Farke and Webber back him, that's good enough for me.

To be fair, when it comes to the whistle being blown tomorrow evening, it doesn't matter who is out on that pitch or what they did or didn't achieve last season or two seasons ago, that no longer matters. What matters is that whoever is given the privilege of donning the yellow and green strip, to cross that line as a starting player or to come on from the bench, that they play like they know it is a privilege and do their best. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,044]

3 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Kenny was one of our best players last time around and has just enjoyed a very good season in the Champs. Some people just can't, don't or won't see it. 

A bit like Hanley I suppose.

I love Hanley. Criminally underrated by some.

[Canary dwarf 221]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, for me he's probably our best all-round midfielder. Maybe Lees-Melou will take that spot but haven't seen enough of him to know.

I really excited about Lee's _ melou cant wait to see him play.

[Commonsense 621]

4 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

If Kenny McLean plays 37 times for us this season like he did in the last PL campaign we will be relegated.

Discuss.

How about you fcuk off..

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Completely pointless thread considering it would take a long term injury to Gilmour, Dowell or Melou to make this scenario realistic.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

Sargent is another, people slating his lack of goals without applying the context that he has mainly been deployed as an AM in the last season or so.

Josh Sargent Last Season:

 

Josh Sargent the season before:

 

Why make things up? 

[chicken 2,624]

6 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Josh Sargent Last Season:

 

Josh Sargent the season before:

 

Why make things up? 

I wasn't - I was relying upon the statement from the Werder Bremen fan that came on here, and the video you claimed displayed he had no left foot and mainly him not playing as a striker...

Edit: always share your bloody sources too. For all I know, you've made up these images.

Edited August 13, 2021 by chicken

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Just now, chicken said:

I wasn't - I was relying upon the statement from the Werder Bremen fan that came on here, and the video you showed of no left foot and mainly him not playing as a striker...

And that's why data trumps anecdotal antidotes and guesses. 

[chicken 2,624]

Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

And that's why data trumps anecdotal antidotes and guesses. 

Nope, it's why either in isolation are both useless.

 

[king canary 7,605]

7 minutes ago, chicken said:

Nope, it's why either in isolation are both useless.

 

Not really, if the claim is something empirical like how many games a player has played at a certain position. 

That source looks like Transfermarkt by the way.

[chicken 2,624]

15 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

And that's why data trumps anecdotal antidotes and guesses. 

Just to establish the reliability of the stats you are providing from a source you haven't yet shared. I decided to have a trawl through here:
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/matchday/2020-2021/21

I would love to know what they mean by a "second striker" if they mean one of two strikers then I can count more occasions than they have given.

Also, what does starting on the left of a front three in a 4-3-3 count as? Liverpool play that and Mane and Salah are still considered to be more AM/Wingers due to the defensive work they have to do.

Those stats just leave more questions really.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Shameless plug time! I wrote about Josh Sargent here;

https://byag.medium.com/josh-sargent-what-is-he-good-for-ba6c95c654ff

WyScout, a far more reliable source than Transfermarkt, lists Sargent as playing 500 minutes on the wing (about equally split between left and right) and 500 minutes as an attacking midfielder and 1,500 minutes as a striker. Bremen did often play with two strikers though and Sargent would be the one tasked with dropping deeper. 

There is also a heatmap that shows that the majority of his touches were in the wide right/central area of the pitch.

He was not the main focal point of scoring from Bremen, although ended up their joint top scorer. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,044]

1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

How about you fcuk off..

What is wrong with you? This board is unreal.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

1 minute ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

What is wrong with you? This board is unreal.

It is because McLean gets a lot of unfair stick and the wording of your OP was fairly provocative. If you are going to throw some shade over a Norwich player without some solid reasoning, expect to get some heat for it.

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

Would this be the same Kenny McLean who kept Gilmore out of the Scottish Euro’s squad until his injury forced them to call up a replacement. The same Gilmore fans are expecting massive things from.. hmm, not saying McLean is better than Gilmore, but Scotland were.

I think if he plays all but 1 game it’s a sign of other problems rather than him not being good enough for the PL.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,044]

Just now, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

It is because McLean gets a lot of unfair stick and the wording of your OP was fairly provocative. If you are going to throw some shade over a Norwich player without some solid reasoning, expect to get some heat for it.

It's ridiculous. Nobody would act that way in real life. People should be allowed opinions without being sworn at.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Just now, Worthy Nigelton said:

It's ridiculous. Nobody would act that way in real life. People should be allowed opinions without being sworn at.

Have you been on the internet before..?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,716]

1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

How about you fcuk off..

I see friendly friday is off to a good start

[chicken 2,624]

52 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not really, if the claim is something empirical like how many games a player has played at a certain position. 

That source looks like Transfermarkt by the way.

No exactly really.

For example, those stats don't break down whether there were any formation changes during the game. How many of those were substitute appearances etc.

It might be that a team started 4-3-3 but then fell into a more 4-3-2-1 after 20mins as it wasn't working.

Without context the stats only paint a part of the picture. They are not empirical at all. And having looked at the leagues own match reports and starting formations, I would say the source TVB shared isn't accurate - not in my favour particularly but it certainly isn't accurate in it's stats.

Anyone that relies entirely upon stats is in trouble. Anyone who has done any research of any decent level will know that you can't just provide stats and say - "proven".

Two in one hundred people suffer side effects. - Great stat, but do those two people across hundreds have any commonality? If you don't have an answer, that's a concern. Mainly because no groups of 100 people are the same, so you need to know whether that is an accurate ratio or whether they share something that might be represented by a larger percentage in the general population.

Context is vital.

One thing is for certain though, Werder Bremen did not have a settled formation last season. 3-4-2-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-4-2... you name it, they pretty much tried it. Which is odd, because at times they were doing ok, scoring multiple goals in a game etc.