NCFC Official Supporters Panel: fan issues to discuss

[city4eva 207]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

I see Robin Sainty has tweeted that the club have said they've taken their full allocations for Spurs and West Ham which is good news, glad to see they've listened.

That’s good news

[essex canary 490]

21 minutes ago, GMF said:

Be careful @essex canary, if you keep bringing up all your past history, next you’ll be accused of being a binner! 😉

In all seriousness though, the Club has always operated its membership scheme based upon an annual programme of games attended the previous season. This season is obviously different because of the pandemic. Whether you’ve got x number of shares, or not, is irrelevant and clubs that do calculate membership over several seasons tend to result in tickets going to less,  rather than more fans. Is this really what you want? 

People do go through different phases of life, for example students going to University. I believe Tottenham count 5 years and charge only 200 away members. Also I suspect othe holders of 1,000 shares are still getting favourable treatment but the Club will not be specific about that.

[GMF 735]

8 minutes ago, essex canary said:

People do go through different phases of life, for example students going to University. I believe Tottenham count 5 years and charge only 200 away members. Also I suspect othe holders of 1,000 shares are still getting favourable treatment but the Club will not be specific about that.

That’s exactly the point, all fans are at different stages of their NCFC journey, which can be influenced by personal circumstances.

The current arrangement encourages fans to buy tickets because they can, to keep their count ticking up, rather than because they actually need a ticket to attend that specific game. In my personal opinion, that’s unhelpful to those who can only attend a few games.

Yes, I accept that demand will always exceed supply for certain games, especially in the Premier League, but that’s not a sufficient reason, in my opinion, for the current arrangement to apply to each and every game. 

[Greavsy 2,412]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

I see Robin Sainty has tweeted that the club have said they've taken their full allocations for Spurs and West Ham which is good news, glad to see they've listened.

shame his account is protected so not all can see what he sends 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,421]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

Agreed. 

Agreed x 2 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

1 hour ago, city4eva said:

That’s good news

It is good news but it shouldn’t be news at all really should it? It should just be a given. 

[Uncle Fred 526]

Damn inconsiderate of the club to take the full wet spam and Spurs allocation nothing to beat the club with now 

[1902 1,167]

17 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

Damn inconsiderate of the club to take the full wet spam and Spurs allocation nothing to beat the club with now 

Don't give up hope quite yet, only 40 odd hours until we play again.

[TIL 1010 4,717]

51 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

Damn inconsiderate of the club to take the full wet spam and Spurs allocation nothing to beat the club with now 

Especially if you have been to 1500 club matches and own 1000 shares by the looks of it.

[Greavsy 2,412]

20 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Especially if you have been to 1500 club matches and own 1000 shares by the looks of it.

And you have pledged to support the club - even beyond your passing. 

[essex canary 490]

2 hours ago, GMF said:

That’s exactly the point, all fans are at different stages of their NCFC journey, which can be influenced by personal circumstances.

The current arrangement encourages fans to buy tickets because they can, to keep their count ticking up, rather than because they actually need a ticket to attend that specific game. In my personal opinion, that’s unhelpful to those who can only attend a few games.

Yes, I accept that demand will always exceed supply for certain games, especially in the Premier League, but that’s not a sufficient reason, in my opinion, for the current arrangement to apply to each and every game. 

One issue I have heard is that the Club finds it easy to attract Junior Canaries but not so easy to hold onto them in early adulthood. Perhaps then some more user friendly policies could help?

2 more specific points that could help all supporters with a governance flavour are:

(a) Wouldn't it be better practice if we heard of key decisions through the Club's website rather than second hand through the tweets of the Canaries Trust Chairman?

(b) Absolute clarity between the roles of the Canaries Trust and Supporters Panel.

and 3 further governance items that would be more helpful for me are:

(c) Given that all holders of 4 shares including inheritors are entitled to the same benefits, shouldnt the same apply to all holders of 1,000 shares?

(d) Given that the Club has advised me that the change in my away entitlement is derived from my change to general admission status for home matches, should this not be challenged on the grounds that for all other supporters the Club has divorced any relationship between home support and away support therefore it cannot reasonably selectively apply such links to an individual supporter?

(e) Even if the argument in (d) above should for some reason fail, the fact that the Club did not proactively draw attention to the change of my away status when agreeing my change of home status means that reasonably they must defer back to the most favourable interpretation for myself as the customer.

 

 

 

 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

18 minutes ago, essex canary said:

One issue I have heard is that the Club finds it easy to attract Junior Canaries but not so easy to hold onto them in early adulthood. Perhaps then some more user friendly policies could help?

2 more specific points that could help all supporters with a governance flavour are:

(a) Wouldn't it be better practice if we heard of key decisions through the Club's website rather than second hand through the tweets of the Canaries Trust Chairman?

(b) Absolute clarity between the roles of the Canaries Trust and Supporters Panel.

and 3 further governance items that would be more helpful for me are:

(c) Given that all holders of 4 shares including inheritors are entitled to the same benefits, shouldnt the same apply to all holders of 1,000 shares?

(d) Given that the Club has advised me that the change in my away entitlement is derived from my change to general admission status for home matches, should this not be challenged on the grounds that for all other supporters the Club has divorced any relationship between home support and away support therefore it cannot reasonably selectively apply such links to an individual supporter?

(e) Even if the argument in (d) above should for some reason fail, the fact that the Club did not proactively draw attention to the change of my away status when agreeing my change of home status means that reasonably they must defer back to the most favourable interpretation for myself as the customer.

Essex - alot of those (particularly the latter points seem to be of a more personal nature, relating to your own situation and not general fan engagement which was my understanding of the OSP's introduction. I assume you have taken these up with the club directly? if so at best you will only get the same answer just from a different person. 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

Re the OSP, 

I personally find the current silence from OSP members / pink un posters quite astonishing. 

If you are going to use this (and other forums) to gain support and votes to get onto a panel, to represent the fans, then please have the decency to comment on items being raised, or have you been silenced by the club - in which case that would raise an even bigger concern for me. 

one of the main themes for the latest agenda / meeting was a lack of info from the club / communication, and now following the first meeting there is even less! What is going on? 

 @Feedthewolf @Lessingham Canary & @ncfcstar you have all logged on today. Have you been silenced? 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Greavsy

[city4eva 207]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

It is good news but it shouldn’t be news at all really should it? It should just be a given. 

Yes I agree.

[essex canary 490]

17 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Essex - alot of those (particularly the latter points seem to be of a more personal nature, relating to your own situation and not general fan engagement which was my understanding of the OSP's introduction. I assume you have taken these up with the club directly? if so at best you will only get the same answer just from a different person. 

 

What constitutes "personal"? Whether something effects 1 fan or 10,000 fans it should be determined according to the same principles and criteria. In that sense I believe that it is the Club that is personalising it rather than me.

The implicit idea in GMFs response is that the Club reasonably believes that a student on a 3 year course in Edinburgh on a limited budget should perhaps buy a ticket for a match in Southampton that they have no intention of going to just to protect their interests when they return to Norwich and to supplement the incomes of well paid footballers in the interim. I realise that our supporters representatives do their roles voluntarily. Nonetheless if such engagement with the Club is to be valuable such "cloud cuckoo land' principles need to be challenged. The 1,000 share issue in some senses has similar characteristics as why should anyone be expected to take on such a large number of shares by inheritance with no ongoing advantage over those who don't do so and whilst of course selling is an option it can only be done from a position of relative disadvantage re the price given the quantity of shares involved.

Perhaps a more general point is that there are many circumstances where the Ckub makes both reasonable concessions and perhaps even grants excess privileges. In general there should be policies in place to protect and support what is a reasonable concession and eliminate what is an excess privilege. That seems to me very much a Corporate Governance matter.

 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

22 minutes ago, essex canary said:

What constitutes "personal"? Whether something effects 1 fan or 10,000 fans it should be determined according to the same principles and criteria. In that sense I believe that it is the Club that is personalising it rather than me.

The implicit idea in GMFs response is that the Club reasonably believes that a student on a 3 year course in Edinburgh on a limited budget should perhaps buy a ticket for a match in Southampton that they have no intention of going to just to protect their interests when they return to Norwich and to supplement the incomes of well paid footballers in the interim. I realise that our supporters representatives do their roles voluntarily. Nonetheless if such engagement with the Club is to be valuable such "cloud cuckoo land' principles need to be challenged. The 1,000 share issue in some senses has similar characteristics as why should anyone be expected to take on such a large number of shares by inheritance with no ongoing advantage over those who don't do so and whilst of course selling is an option it can only be done from a position of relative disadvantage re the price given the quantity of shares involved.

Perhaps a more general point is that there are many circumstances where the Ckub makes both reasonable concessions and perhaps even grants excess privileges. In general there should be policies in place to protect and support what is a reasonable concession and eliminate what is an excess privilege. That seems to me very much a Corporate Governance matter.

So have you asked the club your issues re shares? 

I have also never purchased a ticket for an event I have no intention of going to, and dont know any one who has. 

The people are groups based on there away ticket purchases from the last complete season (I know you dont agree with that being fair, but thats a different point). However those people didn't know it was the case when they purchased the tickets, as the  away members scheme in it current form was not in existance, so those people are in the relevent groups based on purchased made with the intention of going to the match. 

Also, my personal view is given how the current system is being perceived by some, together with our potential of playing in a lower league next season (hopefully not), covid, reduced earnings, higher food / energy bills, I doubt the current system would be as viable to the club and even if it is the uptake to be considerably less.  

Edited October 14, 2021 by Greavsy

[GMF 735]

17 minutes ago, essex canary said:

The implicit idea in GMFs response is that the Club reasonably believes that a student on a 3 year course in Edinburgh on a limited budget should perhaps buy a ticket for a match in Southampton that they have no intention of going to just to protect their interests when they return to Norwich and to supplement the incomes of well paid footballers in the interim. I realise that our supporters representatives do their roles voluntarily. Nonetheless if such engagement with the Club is to be valuable such "cloud cuckoo land' principles need to be challenged.

I’m not sure how you’ve managed to deduce this from my previous response. I inferred no such thing as this.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

36 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

 

I have also never purchased a ticket for an event I have no intention of going to, and dont know any one who has. 

Ticket touts. I don't know  any either, but they do do that  don't they. 

[Greavsy 2,412]

I've no idea, never looked up NCFC tickets on stub hub / viagogo and the like. 

I know at a meeting I was at with the club previously (when Ben K was still there) and he said the club looked to identify the source of people reselling tickets to stop it at source. Not sure how much of a problem it was / is

[essex canary 490]

11 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Especially if you have been to 1500 club matches and own 1000 shares by the looks of it.

How is it solved?

My son lives in Kent, he only wants to watch matches relatively close to home. He bought an Away Membership last time but now being in Group 5 he knows the system doesn't work for him, he hasn't bought one this time. He has been a season ticket holder both home and away in the past. Not the case for his fiancee who would like to go with him. The Club says it likes to encourage family attendance. The reason for the race to the bottom in terms of away support for young adults must be obvious. If the Club was right that demand was likely to be less for Chelsea it would have been a great chance for him to go with or without Membership yet the Club messed it up.

The issue  regarding myself is that a staff member made a misstatement of fact and hasn't apologised. Sorry seems to be the hardest word.

 

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

11 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Re the OSP, 

I personally find the current silence from OSP members / pink un posters quite astonishing. 

If you are going to use this (and other forums) to gain support and votes to get onto a panel, to represent the fans, then please have the decency to comment on items being raised, or have you been silenced by the club - in which case that would raise an even bigger concern for me. 

one of the main themes for the latest agenda / meeting was a lack of info from the club / communication, and now following the first meeting there is even less! What is going on? 

 @Feedthewolf @Lessingham Canary & @ncfcstar you have all logged on today. Have you been silenced? 

We have not been silenced by the club. I'm still keeping an eye on this thread, and I am noting the issues that people are raising, so please don't think we are ignoring you. It's just about choosing the appropriate time and appropriate channel to raise these concerns in the long gap between meetings. Myself and @Lessingham Canary as vice-chair and chair are having ongoing discussions with the club about a lot of these issues, and we will report back when we feel the time is right.

I appreciate the frustrations and concerns of the people who have posted on this thread. The communications issues between club and fans are acknowledged by both the club and the panel, and believe me we are in constant contact with the club.

And @Van wink, regarding the ladies' toilets, have you contacted the club directly about that? You'll probably get a quicker and more informed answer that way. My apologies for not having replied about this sooner.

[hogesar 9,609]

2 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

We have not been silenced by the club. I'm still keeping an eye on this thread, and I am noting the issues that people are raising, so please don't think we are ignoring you. It's just about choosing the appropriate time and appropriate channel to raise these concerns in the long gap between meetings. Myself and @Lessingham Canary as vice-chair and chair are having ongoing discussions with the club about a lot of these issues, and we will report back when we feel the time is right.

I appreciate the frustrations and concerns of the people who have posted on this thread. The communications issues between club and fans are acknowledged by both the club and the panel, and believe me we are in constant contact with the club.

And @Van wink, regarding the ladies' toilets, have you contacted the club directly about that? You'll probably get a quicker and more informed answer that way. My apologies for not having replied about this sooner.

But have you prioritised the most important matter? Making sure those with 1000 shares are given extra, preferential treatment over us commoners? 😉 

[Duncan Edwards 2,216]

52 minutes ago, essex canary said:

How is it solved?

My son lives in Kent, he only wants to watch matches relatively close to home. He bought an Away Membership last time but now being in Group 5 he knows the system doesn't work for him, he hasn't bought one this time. He has been a season ticket holder both home and away in the past. Not the case for his fiancee who would like to go with him. The Club says it likes to encourage family attendance. The reason for the race to the bottom in terms of away support for young adults must be obvious. If the Club was right that demand was likely to be less for Chelsea it would have been a great chance for him to go with or without Membership yet the Club messed it up.

The issue  regarding myself is that a staff member made a misstatement of fact and hasn't apologised. Sorry seems to be the hardest word.

 

Basically, your son, like me, has to suck it up. There are other posters on here that can testify to the amount of away games I've been to in the past, yet due to personal circumstances I went to only 1 in the season that "counts".

I did Torquay away on a Tuesday night on cabbage. That sort of loyalty (and experience) alone should qualify me for a guaranteed away ticket for erm life...

I don't complain about it. The facts are that the club had to define how they recognised and rewarded loyalty and the manner they chose to didn't suit me personally. But they had to choose a way and I am where I am in the pecking order correctly according to the way they chose. If I was going to moan about something, it would be the way that I can still attend away games using the customer number of someone in a "higher group" that can't go or has chosen not to. That's where the wrong person is being falsely rewarded and away support becomes a bit of a closed shop. So, you spend your money, you follow the team and the guy watching the game on his sofa safeguards his away ticket for the games he can be @rsed to go to next season. 

[TIL 1010 4,717]

25 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But have you prioritised the most important matter? Making sure those with 1000 shares are given extra, preferential treatment over us commoners? 😉 

You forgot to include those that have attended 1500 club matches .

[GMF 735]

13 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

 If I was going to moan about something, it would be the way that I can still attend away games using the customer number of someone in a "higher group" that can't go or has chosen not to. That's where the wrong person is being falsely rewarded and away support becomes a bit of a closed shop. So, you spend your money, you follow the team and the guy watching the game on his sofa safeguards his away ticket for the games he can be @rsed to go to next season. 

This is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post, not touting, as some assumed. It remains my own opinion that this current “ranking” of sales windows is often unnecessary for a lot of games and is actually more likely to make the situation worse over a period of time. 

[TIL 1010 4,717]

31 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

 

I appreciate the frustrations and concerns of the people who have posted on this thread. The communications issues between club and fans are acknowledged by both the club and the panel, and believe me we are in constant contact with the club.

 

Do you get in a queue behind essex to make contact with the club wolfie as i understand that avenue has just got smaller ?

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

8 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Do you get in a queue behind essex to make contact with the club wolfie as i understand that avenue has just got smaller ?

Sorry, not quite sure what you're angling at here Tilly.

[hogesar 9,609]

23 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

You forgot to include those that have attended 1500 club matches .

Oh yeah! Although I think that's less unique than he thinks. I can't compete with that but bet you could!

[Greavsy 2,412]

58 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

We have not been silenced by the club. I'm still keeping an eye on this thread, and I am noting the issues that people are raising, so please don't think we are ignoring you. It's just about choosing the appropriate time and appropriate channel to raise these concerns in the long gap between meetings. Myself and @Lessingham Canary as vice-chair and chair are having ongoing discussions with the club about a lot of these issues, and we will report back when we feel the time is right.

I appreciate the frustrations and concerns of the people who have posted on this thread. The communications issues between club and fans are acknowledged by both the club and the panel, and believe me we are in constant contact with the club.

And @Van wink, regarding the ladies' toilets, have you contacted the club directly about that? You'll probably get a quicker and more informed answer that way. My apologies for not having replied about this sooner.

Thanks Wolfie appreciate the reply. 

Just remember though you are all nominated to represent the fans to the club, not the other way round. They have their own channels to do that, albeit they aren't using them much atm. 

[Greavsy 2,412]

25 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Do you get in a queue behind essex to make contact with the club wolfie as i understand that avenue has just got smaller ?

Essex queues for life! It may be a wait. 

I hear what you're saying Tilly. Another door closes. Interesting times.