Prudence or ambition?

[Naturalcynic 489]

I see the mighty Fulham’s new main stand is well on the way to completion and is looking good.  Whether by accident or design, the lack of crowds over the last 18 months has worked in their favour as it’s allowed them to crack on with the building work.  Despite being a yo-yo club much like ourselves, they’ve clearly decided that improving their ground and taking their capacity up to the 30,000 mark is a good investment for the future wellbeing of the club and is the right thing to do.  Sadly this is something that appears unlikely ever to happen with little old Norwich.

[TIL 1010 4,290]

Ben Kensell had plans to move things along in that respect but now he has gone i fully expect the club to wait until there are issues with the safety certificate as what happened with the South Stand .

[PurpleCanary 5,276]

1 minute ago, TIL 1010 said:

Ben Kensell had plans to move things along in that respect but now he has gone i fully expect the club to wait until there are issues with the safety certificate as what happened with the South Stand .

I can imagine that if the club have already started having warnings, which is what I believe happened with the South Stand. It got tyo a point where the club could no longer put it off. Has that started to happen already with the City Stand? If not I believe the timing of an expansion there will depend entirely on financial factors.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,219]

Little old Norwich

 

 

 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

16 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I see the mighty Fulham’s new main stand is well on the way to completion and is looking good.  Whether by accident or design, the lack of crowds over the last 18 months has worked in their favour as it’s allowed them to crack on with the building work.  Despite being a yo-yo club much like ourselves, they’ve clearly decided that improving their ground and taking their capacity up to the 30,000 mark is a good investment for the future wellbeing of the club and is the right thing to do.  Sadly this is something that appears unlikely ever to happen with little old Norwich.

Let’s say you’re not a multi millionaire, and you want an Aston Martin DB name your number and a Ferrari, very nice to upgrade to but not something immediately pressing. Do you get a loan plus sell the family home? 

Would love to see Carrow Rd expanded, but there’s a lot of cheques being cashed right now on such things as this and players that would take us way over our overdraft. Not very wise in any situation unless you want to end up homeless of course.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,219]

This has been discussed to the nth degree previously with some valuable input from both sides of the argument.

I think the general upshot was that for or all the outlay and upheaval, the benefits, if at all, were minimal in terms of bringing extra revenue into the club (and it would be many years before we saw any sort of return on investment) and especially not if we have an extended run in the Premier League.

 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

24 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Let’s say you’re not a multi millionaire, and you want an Aston Martin DB name your number and a Ferrari, very nice to upgrade to but not something immediately pressing. Do you get a loan plus sell the family home? 

Would love to see Carrow Rd expanded, but there’s a lot of cheques being cashed right now on such things as this and players that would take us way over our overdraft. Not very wise in any situation unless you want to end up homeless of course.

Or.. let’s say you own a house but you have outgrown it and want a bigger house. Do you go to the bank for a mortgage when you finances are in order and on a big wage or when your struggling to make ends meat on a lower income?

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,219]

Why do we want a bigger house, though? Shall we see how the next few years map out and reaceess then.. 

[Badger 2,328]

7 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Why do we want a bigger house, though? Shall we see how the next few years map out and reaceess then.. 

Well one reason is that youngsters can't get into the ground like they did when many of us started. This surely can't be good for the future.

Nor am I sure that it is financially unviable as some people have suggested as well (assuming that we can get some sort of mortgage finance on it over 25 years). 

[Mr Angry 1,367]

Shame they haven’t got rid of the Johnny Haynes stand, that corner bit looks awful now.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

10 minutes ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Or.. let’s say you own a house but you have outgrown it and want a bigger house. Do you go to the bank for a mortgage when you finances are in order and on a big wage or when your struggling to make ends meat on a lower income?

Think we tried spending beyond our means when we were temporarily on a big wage a while back, and it didn’t work out too well. Fortunately we’re moving in the right direction again, and with some smart moves in the transfer windows I have no doubt we will be able to enhance both the squad and the ground in time without the risk of borrowing from banks etc. It is unnecessary at this moment in time. We must focus any spare monies on the squad right now, the ground we can think about later.

[Badger 2,328]

11 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

we tried spending beyond our means when we were temporarily on a big wage a while back, and it didn’t work out too well.

It all depends upon how it is financed. A lot of the money that Spurs borrowed for their new ground was below 3%. We might not be able to borrow at the same rate as Spurs, but anything remotely similar over a long-term loan would make sense financially. As long as it generates greater revenue than the cost of financing it, it would improve our position financially.

[Essjayess 307]

Obviously in the last few years Colney was the area that needed the most upgrading, which seems to have been done wonderfully well considering how new players enthuse  now about the facilities there. We all know the City  stand has been the ongoing spot for possible redevelopment for absolutely yonks so all we can hope is that now Colney is up to spec that somewhere down the line...sooner rather than later of course..City and the local authorities can make this happen.

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

14 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Think we tried spending beyond our means when we were temporarily on a big wage a while back, and it didn’t work out too well. Fortunately we’re moving in the right direction again, and with some smart moves in the transfer windows I have no doubt we will be able to enhance both the squad and the ground in time without the risk of borrowing from banks etc. It is unnecessary at this moment in time. We must focus any spare monies on the squad right now, the ground we can think about later.

We will never have ‘spare money’ for ground expansion it would almost always be treated separately from team building. So what if we don’t see financial gain for 10-15 years, if the future ticket money covers the cost it should be high priority as the fans have proven that we stick by the club in bad times. It will also benefit team building in the meantime as ground size is a large part of being seen as a big club and hence how attractive you are to potential players. I’m not saying there is 0 risk but you appear so brainwashed by the mantra of prudence that even the idea of a structured loan against future income is the end of NCFC.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

It all depends upon how it is financed. A lot of the money that Spurs borrowed for their new ground was below 3%. We might not be able to borrow at the same rate as Spurs, but anything remotely similar over a long-term loan would make sense financially. As long as it generates greater revenue than the cost of financing it, it would improve our position financially.

That’s fair enough, Badger, but I think the day you start seeing our club taking out loans will be the day we see both Webber and Farke leave. It’s each to their own, and I want to see the City stand developed too, of course, but I’d rather we invest in the playing side right now - get that right and we’ll be able to develop the ground sooner rather than later anyway. I guess it depends how much faith you have in this model or not ultimately, but I for one am enjoying the challenge, and am certainly aiming higher than a Burnley or Palace. Won’t add any more as will just be repeating myself in 5 pages time ha ha. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

17 minutes ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

We will never have ‘spare money’ for ground expansion it would almost always be treated separately from team building. So what if we don’t see financial gain for 10-15 years, if the future ticket money covers the cost it should be high priority as the fans have proven that we stick by the club in bad times. It will also benefit team building in the meantime as ground size is a large part of being seen as a big club and hence how attractive you are to potential players. I’m not saying there is 0 risk but you appear so brainwashed by the mantra of prudence that even the idea of a structured loan against future income is the end of NCFC.

That’s because people have different levels of ‘prudence v ambition’ on here. Some are more realistic than others - see Badger’s point. But I guarantee you there’s some that would happily gamble in a manner that genuinely would risk as much as the clubs future in the off chance it might get us to the highest echelons of the PL as quickly as possible - and that’s exactly where my concern lies. Not brainwashed at all - there are levels, and I’m only concerned with the level of loan that could potentially put the clubs future in a sticky spot despite your incorrect assumption.

[Badger 2,328]

20 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

That’s fair enough, Badger, but I think the day you start seeing our club taking out loans will be the day we see both Webber and Farke leave.

We have borrowed money since they have been here - the training ground for a start - Webber was very keen to improve the facilities, as it strengthens in the long term. For the same reason, I can't see why he would oppose stadium expansion if it were affordable.

The last accounts showed that we were due to repay a £10.5 million loan in May.

 

 

[Ward 3 337]

1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Why do we want a bigger house, though? Shall we see how the next few years map out and reaceess then.. 

If you look at it in that aspect we could be waiting another 15 years bud

[Alex Moss 2,165]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

We have borrowed money since they have been here - the training ground for a start - Webber was very keen to improve the facilities, as it strengthens in the long term. For the same reason, I can't see why he would oppose stadium expansion if it were affordable.

The last accounts showed that we were due to repay a £10.5 million loan in May.

 

 

Interesting Badger, when was that loan taken out?

[Alex Moss 2,165]

1 minute ago, Alex Moss said:

Interesting Badger, when was that loan taken out?

Scrap that, just seen it was taken out last year (I think). I have to say I’m very very surprised indeed, I didn’t think we had been in debt to anyone recently.

[Badger 2,328]

1 minute ago, Alex Moss said:

Scrap that, just seen it was taken out last year (I think). I have to say I’m very very surprised indeed, I didn’t think we had been in debt to anyone recently.

It was one of the reasons my Jim's point about cash flow, on multiple threads, was nonsense.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

It was one of the reasons my Jim's point about cash flow, on multiple threads, was nonsense.

It is indeed a very good example of people only seeing the incoming money, and completely ignoring the huge expenditure that goes into simply running a club. That loan is certainly no small sum of money, and there will be many hidden costs associated with running the club on top of that too. 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,219]

2 hours ago, Badger said:

Well one reason is that youngsters can't get into the ground like they did when many of us started. This surely can't be good for the future.

Nor am I sure that it is financially unviable as some people have suggested as well (assuming that we can get some sort of mortgage finance on it over 25 years). 

So you're advocating queuing up  outside the Barclay waiting for the gates to open at 1 o'clock again

[Terminally Yellow 2,329]

3 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I see the mighty Fulham’s new main stand is well on the way to completion and is looking good.  Whether by accident or design, the lack of crowds over the last 18 months has worked in their favour as it’s allowed them to crack on with the building work.  Despite being a yo-yo club much like ourselves, they’ve clearly decided that improving their ground and taking their capacity up to the 30,000 mark is a good investment for the future wellbeing of the club and is the right thing to do.  Sadly this is something that appears unlikely ever to happen with little old Norwich.

Then do feel free to **** right off and support Fulham.

[Naturalcynic 489]

14 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Then do feel free to **** right off and support Fulham.

A touch unnecessary.

[Badger 2,328]

48 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

So you're advocating queuing up  outside the Barclay waiting for the gates to open at 1 o'clock again

 Those were the days!

But it is a serious point - loads of us used to go one out own from the age of about 11 or 12, but I can't see how many an manage it nowadays. We need more capacity or run the risk that a whole generation* of young people will never discover the delights of Carrow Road!

 

* Or large part of it.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,219]

17 minutes ago, Badger said:

 Those were the days!

But it is a serious point - loads of us used to go one out own from the age of about 11 or 12, but I can't see how many an manage it nowadays. We need more capacity or run the risk that a whole generation* of young people will never discover the delights of Carrow Road!

 

* Or large part of it.

They certainly were the days

You do raise a good point about youngsters attending, and how times have changed. Me and a mate (both aged 13) used to hitch hike from Yarmouth to Norwich if we couldn't afford the train. I'm not sure that would be encouraged now.

[Daz Sparks 1,006]

19 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Me and a mate (both aged 13) used to hitch hike from Yarmouth to Norwich if we couldn't afford the train.

I picked a hitch-hiker the other day, he was most grateful, he went on to say that most people are worried they might pick up a serial killer, I told that the chances of us both being serial killers was millions to one.

[chicken 2,485]

The sort of elephant in the room here is the FFP rules.

I believe they only apply to the playing staff / squad, so in reality their wealthy owner can only throw so much at the team. He can, however, invest in the business assets of the club and try increase income through that revenue, thus, in the long run, enabling him to spend more on the squad. So there is a very good reason for their owner wanting to expand their stadium.

This is probably one example of why the FFP rules can have positive impacts on the long term future of clubs... so long as he doesn't walk off and leave them saddled with the debt of the construction.

[Badger 2,328]

21 minutes ago, chicken said:

This is probably one example of why the FFP rules can have positive impacts on the long term future of clubs... so long as he doesn't walk off and leave them saddled with the debt of the construction.

I think the Fulham guy is genuine - he has spent so much at Fulham, I can't see how he will ever get his money back. There must be some masterplan of which I am unaware.