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TeemuVanBasten

Hope Sargent isn't true.

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On 12/12/2021 at 00:11, chicken said:

And add to all of that he is 21. It can have a huge impact on a young player not to be played in their preferred position and then to lose confidence owing to that. The fact that he was a regular for a Bundesliga side at 19/20 would suggest there is quality there.

For those that don't know the three phases, one of them is when the opposition have the ball. He made a number of interceptions today, positionally was good, looking to move into space and his eye for a pass was good although a couple didn't come off.

Passing is the easiest part of the game to drill. Weight of pass is easy enough to improve but can be massively impacted by fitness, confidence and calmness. In my experience, if players are too keen to impress and trying too hard touches are heavy as they are too many steps ahead an not focusing on the now. You get overhit passes and skied shots, sometimes over-zealous tackling. If a player lacks confidence they often undercook passes, shots lack that instinctive snap behind them that confidence brings. Players often look to play safe, strike with the instep rather than the laces, place and pass the ball towards the goal rather than swing though for power for fear of messing it up.

We can see Sargent knows where to be, both going forwards and in helping tracking back. He's good in the air and helped defend set pieces today getting his head to the ball first. We know he is good at tackling and using his strength and muscle to give oppo players a tough time. We have seen this all season. This isn't "all huff and puff" - this is a player working hard, knowing what to do and where to be and how to do it, sometimes instinctively.

That is quality. He's clearly still adapting to the English game. People were slating Rashica until a few games ago too. He has a decent touch, decent vision... just appears to lose that bit of composure in the final third, which to me has to be down to confidence and calmness.

For an example of calmness, see Sorensen. You could fly in at knee height and Jacob would just step out of the way with the ball, glance as you flew past and be passing to a team mate before you could stop sliding. That isn't to do with just technical ability, that's to do with breathing, focus and calm.

Edit: the one footed bit still doesn't have anything to do with it.

On Saturday I said to my neighbour in the stand that on Saturday that Josh needed dancing lessons. I wasn’t joking. At times he seems static with the weight on the back foot and with a wide stance. Poor position to react to and when receiving the ball. Box to box he brings a lot to the team. I’m sure when Chris Sutton was a young player he had extra coaching re movement and balance. I would prefer to see Josh not central in penalty area but waiting on the flanks for cross or quick ball across goal. If Hugill does join us I look forward to  a day at the barbers for Josh for stream lining purposes and to minimise the effect of turbulent winds at Carrow Rd. 👍 Perhaps a charity raiser?

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2 hours ago, Block Y Seat 176 said:

On Saturday I said to my neighbour in the stand that on Saturday that Josh needed dancing lessons. I wasn’t joking. At times he seems static with the weight on the back foot and with a wide stance. Poor position to react to and when receiving the ball. Box to box he brings a lot to the team. I’m sure when Chris Sutton was a young player he had extra coaching re movement and balance. I would prefer to see Josh not central in penalty area but waiting on the flanks for cross or quick ball across goal. If Hugill does join us I look forward to  a day at the barbers for Josh for stream lining purposes and to minimise the effect of turbulent winds at Carrow Rd. 👍 Perhaps a charity raiser?

Dancing is never a bad thing for sports folks. Loosens up the ankles which can help with the finer technical skills too.

A wide stance in itself isn't actually a bad stance to start from, it just depends upon where you place your weight and whether you are flat on your heels. Standing upright with your feet close together is actually the worse stance you can hold.

Footy wise, they always try to drill it into you that your feet need to be at least should width apart - though to not over extend either. And ideally on the balls of your feet if not your toes. Doing that for 90mins is a chore in it's own right, but a wide stance in itself isn't always a bad thing, especially when receiving the ball, it gives you more strength. Only works if the ball is whipped into you though, not so much if passed to you and you need to meet it. 

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He's clearly trying to hard.  Cut him a little slack and he has the attributes to develop into a good player I think, but if folk jump on his back and he loses confidence, we may never see that.

I'd like to hope that he will come good, glass half full!

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Sargent is already a good player and is improving all the time although some on here haven't yet noticed because they just judge "strikers" on the goals they score.

When he was 21 Pukki moved from Helsinki to Shalke. In two seasons there he scored 8 goals. In the next two at Celtic he scored 7 goals. It wasn't until he was 25 or 26 that he developed his game enough to become a goalscorer.

Sargent is a player. Maybe not yet a PL striker, but he will be.

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1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

 

Sargent is a player. Maybe not yet a PL striker, but he will be.

Well he had better get his skates on or we will be back in the Championship.

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So bored of this topic. Maybe trust that Dean Smith and Craig Shakespeare know a good footballer when they see one? I'd overthink every time I received the ball in front of goal if I'd ever read any Norwich City social media comments from 2 games in. Some hideously vicious criticism.

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6 hours ago, Penelope Catchpole said:

As the Beatles said, I've Got a Feeling...

Wasnt that the Black Eye Peas? 😉 

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3 hours ago, RobertRosariosBeefTomatoes said:

So bored of this topic. Maybe trust that Dean Smith and Craig Shakespeare know a good footballer when they see one? I'd overthink every time I received the ball in front of goal if I'd ever read any Norwich City social media comments from 2 games in. Some hideously vicious criticism.

Even Ronaldo mimicked Sargent's recent airshot at the weekend.  

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5 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Sargent is already a good player and is improving all the time although some on here haven't yet noticed because they just judge "strikers" on the goals they score.

When he was 21 Pukki moved from Helsinki to Shalke. In two seasons there he scored 8 goals. In the next two at Celtic he scored 7 goals. It wasn't until he was 25 or 26 that he developed his game enough to become a goalscorer.

Sargent is a player. Maybe not yet a PL striker, but he will be.

It isn't just about a lack of goals though is it? He's barely involved in the games when he's on the pitch outside of lots of running he doesn't contribute a great deal. He doesn't really create, his passing is pretty poor, he loses the ball quite a bit and when he does get into a good position he tends to panic.

I'm not writing him off, he has some potential, but lets not pretend he's actually been really good and its just stupid fans judging on a lack of goals that aren't impressed.

 

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9 minutes ago, king canary said:

It isn't just about a lack of goals though is it? He's barely involved in the games when he's on the pitch outside of lots of running he doesn't contribute a great deal. He doesn't really create, his passing is pretty poor, he loses the ball quite a bit and when he does get into a good position he tends to panic.

I'm not writing him off, he has some potential, but lets not pretend he's actually been really good and its just stupid fans judging on a lack of goals that aren't impressed.

I think a large part of the problem is that there is a perception about him that isn't backed up by any stats you can find. His passing success rate, by several sources, is actually better than Pukki's... 

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1 minute ago, chicken said:

I think a large part of the problem is that there is a perception about him that isn't backed up by any stats you can find. His passing success rate, by several sources, is actually better than Pukki's... 

I don't know where you're looking but it is backed up by plenty of stats.

Yes his pass success rate is better than Pukki's -Sargent has a solid but unspectacular rate of 78.5%, so me saying his passing is pretty poor may be unfair in comparison to others in his position. However in terms of creativity he's creating 0.5 chances per game (less than almost all our players in similar positions other than a wildly out of form Cantwell) and actually is averaging less than 13 passes a game, easily the lowest of anyone with a regular starting berth.

Nobody has been dispossed more or had more unsuccesful touches this season and quite staggeringly for an attacker, he has one shot on target all season- for context that means Kabak, Gibson, Aarons and Hanley have all had more.

All stats are from whoscored.

 

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't know where you're looking but it is backed up by plenty of stats.

Yes his pass success rate is better than Pukki's -Sargent has a solid but unspectacular rate of 78.5%, so me saying his passing is pretty poor may be unfair in comparison to others in his position. However in terms of creativity he's creating 0.5 chances per game (less than almost all our players in similar positions other than a wildly out of form Cantwell) and actually is averaging less than 13 passes a game, easily the lowest of anyone with a regular starting berth.

Nobody has been dispossed more or had more unsuccesful touches this season and quite staggeringly for an attacker, he has one shot on target all season- for context that means Kabak, Gibson, Aarons and Hanley have all had more.

All stats are from whoscored.

 

Ah yes, so whilst criticising me for one stat you then fail to use others in a balanced way.

0.5 chances per game - when really it's minutes you need to look at. He has 818mins total, 9 starts and 6 sub appearances. One of which for ten mins or so against a Man Utd who were already 3-0 up.

Pukki has started 16 gams and has 1375mins to his name. Pukki has 14.8 passes per game, for someone who has played a lot more minutes and more complete games. So not coming on in games where we are already losing for the last 20mins of games at most.

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39 minutes ago, chicken said:

Ah yes, so whilst criticising me for one stat you then fail to use others in a balanced way.

0.5 chances per game - when really it's minutes you need to look at. He has 818mins total, 9 starts and 6 sub appearances. One of which for ten mins or so against a Man Utd who were already 3-0 up.

Pukki has started 16 gams and has 1375mins to his name. Pukki has 14.8 passes per game, for someone who has played a lot more minutes and more complete games. So not coming on in games where we are already losing for the last 20mins of games at most.

I don't think I criticised you? However I'd argue you're the one presenting an oddly skewed picture by focusing on just comparing him to Pukki, when Sargent has largely played a very different position and role to him.

For context that pass per game stat is bettered by Rashica and Cantwell, both of whom have played less minutes than Sargent, both of whom have less starts than Sargent. The same is true of the chances created, Tzolis, Rashica and Dowell all have less minutes, less starts and yet average a higher chances created per game. So I'm not sure the minutes arguement holds much water.

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51 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think I criticised you? However I'd argue you're the one presenting an oddly skewed picture by focusing on just comparing him to Pukki, when Sargent has largely played a very different position and role to him.

For context that pass per game stat is bettered by Rashica and Cantwell, both of whom have played less minutes than Sargent, both of whom have less starts than Sargent. The same is true of the chances created, Tzolis, Rashica and Dowell all have less minutes, less starts and yet average a higher chances created per game. So I'm not sure the minutes arguement holds much water.

 Chicken knows best. 

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6 hours ago, RobertRosariosBeefTomatoes said:

 I'd overthink every time I received the ball in front of goal if I'd ever read any Norwich City social media comments from 2 games in. Some hideously vicious criticism.

This is part and parcel of modern day football at the top level. Buendia has been getting called a waste of money at Villa.

It is never going to change, and therefore ability to ignore or cope with those comments are one of the ingredients which will go into determining whether a player succeeds or not, it takes mental fortitude, if you haven't got it then playing in the most watched league in the world is a bad decision. 

 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

I don't think I criticised you? However I'd argue you're the one presenting an oddly skewed picture by focusing on just comparing him to Pukki, when Sargent has largely played a very different position and role to him.

For context that pass per game stat is bettered by Rashica and Cantwell, both of whom have played less minutes than Sargent, both of whom have less starts than Sargent. The same is true of the chances created, Tzolis, Rashica and Dowell all have less minutes, less starts and yet average a higher chances created per game. So I'm not sure the minutes arguement holds much water.

I think the main difference is that Tzolis, Rashica, Dowell and Cantwell are not strikers. They are wingers or attacking midfielders and they will have been coached to be so for some time. Sargent is primarily a striker, perhaps not a great one, but has been played wide because of his work rate.

Also, when everyone is fit, Sargent wouldn't be first choice out wide either for that reason.

Whether you rate him or not, the constant bashing is rather ridiculous. Just as it has been with Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Gilmore, PLM...

£50m, ignoring the loans, Gibson, Giannoulis, Sargent, Tzolis, Rashica, PLM, Gunn. About an average of £7m per player. Does anyone think that's enough to make an easy go of this league? Does anyone think that sort of spending gets you sure bets at this level? It might at Championship level. As we saw, an ok Championship striker in Armstrong, who we were supposedly in for over the summer, went to Southampton for £15-20m. Has scored 2 goals this season so far. We certainly couldn't afford to spend £15-20m on that return.

We had no option really. The only other options we had in the summer was to give Vrancic another year, keep hold of Hugill and Hernandez and that's more or less it. Would any of those made a difference today? I don't think so. 

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2 minutes ago, chicken said:

£50m, ignoring the loans, Gibson, Giannoulis, Sargent, Tzolis, Rashica, PLM, Gunn. About an average of £7m per player. Does anyone think that's enough to make an easy go of this league?

Watford's net spend on transfer fees over the past 5 years is £15m, so an average net spend of £3m per season.

They've signed a couple of very expensive players, but have sold a couple for huge fees too, so net spend is the figure worth paying attention to.

They are hugely successful at signing players at around the £2.5m to £5m mark, Dennis is just the latest. 

Meanwhile, have a look at Burnley's incomings and outgoings over the past 6 or 7 years, they also spend very little. 

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On 06/12/2021 at 11:18, Hank shoots Skyler said:

 

The whole team has been **** though, not just Sargent. 

He's also played on the right more than he's played up front.

I'm surprised that people don't understand that when a team is doing poorly, some players individually also struggle. Particularly young players in a new league in a new country with lots of other new players around them who also haven't gelled very well? 

Is Josh the only one struggling here? No. 

Gilmour is getting overwhelmed out of possession in every game. 

PLM has been a bit meh. 

Tzolis has been mostly ineffective but we've not seen much of him.

Williams has a shocking game (Leicester, Newcastle) for every good game (Arsenal, Spurs) he has. 

Kabak has looked miles off the pace and is probably our 4th choice CB now. 

Even Rashica only really got going after 8-9 games. 

The only signing that fit straight in has been Normann. 

Then you've got our long-standing players from last season, and the only ones who deserve any credit for their performances this season IMO is Pukki and possibly Aarons. I would like to have seen more of Giannoulis too. 

So really we've got a squad that overall has not performed well as a team, and surprise surprise that means that individuals are also performing way below their usual standards.

Its a collective thing and if Smith can start to get the base of the team working to the sum of their parts then I am sure individual players including Sargent would start to look better too. We do appear to have improved under Smith so if that continues I am sure we still start to see improved individual performances too. 

I'm just not sure why anyone feels the need to start a witch hunt for only certain individuals when actually there are probably only 3 players who have any genuine credit in the bank (Normann, Rashica and Pukki)!

Reposting this as I think it very much rang true for yesterday's performance. 

What a difference it makes when you're coming into a team that is organised, has gained a little confidence and overall playing quite well. 

Yes we still had stand out players (Idah, Hanley) but players like Williams, PLM, Sorensen, Rashica and Sargent all looked so much more competent and capable. 

Okay Everton were poor and its only one game but we've managed to convert performances against poor teams into defeats at home pretty consistently all season (Leicester, Leeds and Watford). The players coming back have clearly made us into a competitive side again, although I would still say the 3 games where we were hampered were disproportionately and inexcusably bad. 

The signings overall will probably show to not be good enough, that still looks quite certain, but I'm convinced our singings aren't THAT bad, certainly not as= made out, and I think this will show more for the rest of the season now we're nearly back to full strength.

It is clearly so much easier for a new signing or current player to perform within a successful side than one that is struggling really badly (and has deep mentality issues in the PL). Much easier to row with the tide than against it. Lets hope we can build on the improvement and give a good platform for individuals to perform.

Also to keep the tug-of-war going on the Sargent debate. He played well yesterday 😄 

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13 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Shhhhhhhhh 😘

I'm very happy that he's proving me wrong.

Also proving many Pink'un posters wrong of course is Dean Smith.

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Said give him time…he’s going to be a legend! TVB

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Just now, Indy said:

Said give him time…he’s going to be a legend! TVB

I think you may be right, his stamina is insane. 

And if you are wrong, he's already beat RVWs, Elmanders and Drmic's career goals.

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WE WANT FOUR!

Edit - yeh, wrong thread.

Edited by Orly
am stupid.
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