Cantwell. Surely there comes a time to draw the line on more

[Uncle Fred 526]

Fortunately Cantwell is no where near a £40 million player so if we can get that for him and we buy well it can only be a win win for both player and club 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Why does ambition have to be about someone else's money.

As I see it some are ambitious to build the club and mix it with the best teams in the country.

Others are ambitious for someone else to come along and put money into the club in order to mix it with the best teams in the country.

Some might say the first group are more ambitious...

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Why does ambition have to be about someone else's money.

As I see it some are ambitious to build the club and mix it with the best teams in the country.

Others are ambitious for someone else to come along and put money into the club in order to mix it with the best teams in the country.

Some might say the first group are more ambitious...

I see what you are saying but every successful business, and we are a professional football club, needs cash flow to take advantage of opportunities such as promotion.

Investment, whether that is in loans, shares or individual contributions can go a long way to strengthening a club (Leicester / Wolves are good examples). 

They way we are attempting this is untried & more difficult but would be a magnificent achievement if Webber & co can pull it off.

Anyway, I am sure people are bored of the argument.....Hope you are good Mr Nutty!

[nutty nigel 7,509]

38 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I see what you are saying but every successful business, and we are a professional football club, needs cash flow to take advantage of opportunities such as promotion.

Investment, whether that is in loans, shares or individual contributions can go a long way to strengthening a club (Leicester / Wolves are good examples). 

They way we are attempting this is untried & more difficult but would be a magnificent achievement if Webber & co can pull it off.

Anyway, I am sure people are bored of the argument.....Hope you are good Mr Nutty!

I'm well thanks Kenny. Trust you are too. Yes both ways are ambitious for different reasons. Heck some people's life ambition is to win the lottery 🙃

[Segura 84]

I for one like reading the OP's views, clearly a passionate fan, but I don't always agree with him.

I certainly don't like the assertion that fans have been 'conditioned' to accept player sales - how can you speak on behalf of thousands of people you don't even know?

And I'm sorry to say but imploring the club to issue a 'hands off warning' is pure fantasy. Perhaps we could have done this over 30 years ago when clubs had much more power over player contracts, but nowadays what would be the point? Cantwell will be sold at some point, I just hope we get top value and top replacement(s).

If Cantwell is sold before the window closes and not replaced, then I think quite rightly, that is the time for some angst. But until then it seems a lot of worry over rumours. And as one poster said, let's give Webber the benefit of the doubt whatever happens, he's earned that and then some.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Words would be cheap.

"If Chris Sutton isn't here at the start of next season neither will I be"

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Investment, whether that is in loans, shares or individual contributions can go a long way to strengthening a club.

It is only investment if the purpose is to make a profit, otherwise it is just spending on your hobby. When you buy a player you immediately take on a liability for his wages for the length of his contract. As an asset this is often both declining and risky in terms of form or injury. We build the best team we can with the budget we have available, increasing that budget through loans, shares and individual contributions insn't investment - it is throwing the money away for fun.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

4 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

Exactly this, Nuff. Could not agree more, and for someone to say I’m condescending or belittling towards Jim, well, the flip side of the coin is that I find his views towards many of us exactly the same. I’m certainly not going to *start* threads that basically call all other posters thick just because we can see the sensibility in selling Todd as this point. Which is exactly what Jim did. If you poke the fire, don’t cry when you get burnt is my feeling. 

Where have I said that? Ive said I find it surprising our fan base just accepts it. I’ve not said anyone is thick. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 hours ago, Badger said:

I don't think anybody wants to lose him. But if an offer is made and he wants to go, what is the alternative and how is it better?

Don’t accept the offer. How many more times! 

[hogesar 9,617]

3 hours ago, Clint said:

This notion that we can sell Todd for £40m and simply spend the proceeds to make the team/squad better is nonsense. 
 

If he goes, we’d have lost 2 of our front 3 from last season and arguably our 2 best players. That’s probably the best part of 50 goals from last season in terms of the goal itself and assists. 

You can’t just go out and replace that for so many reasons. It’s just not that simple.

 

 

I agree it's not easy but it's not impossible, and it's not really our job, it's Webber's, who'll also make the decision to sell Cantwell (or not).

So if Webber believes he can improve the team with the money, who are you to tell him he's wrong?

[Ekoku: The Ambassador Of The People 122]

Its good to see that they are giving Farke a fighting chance this time round. Every season we have had to sell our star performers and if anyone deserved a mini warchest of money was our Daniel. Has worked miracles!!

[Haus 259]

56 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Words would be cheap.

"If Chris Sutton isn't here at the start of next season neither will I be"

I took 2 years off watching football after this.

[Badger 2,405]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

4 hours ago, Clint said:

This notion that we can sell Todd for £40m and simply spend the proceeds to make the team/squad better is nonsense. 
 

If he goes, we’d have lost 2 of our front 3 from last season and arguably our 2 best players. That’s probably the best part of 50 goals from last season in terms of the goal itself and assists. 

You can’t just go out and replace that for so many reasons. It’s just not that simple.

 

 

I don't think anybody wants to lose him. But if an offer is made and he wants to go, what is the alternative and how is it better?

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Don’t accept the offer. How many more times! 

I was actually asking Clint, Jim, I hadn't you were his spokesman. I am quite clear on your views and that you wouldn't wish to pass up on any opportunity to promote division within the club. Here's a chance to prove otherwise: do you support your fellow travellers views that you hope "the support would show its anger at the board." 

What did you have in mind and how would it help?

 

On 04/08/2021 at 13:58, Kenny Foggo said:

If Villa sign Cantwell as well as Buendia so close to the start of the season, I would hope that the support would show its anger to the board.

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

4 hours ago, Badger said:

I don't think anybody wants to lose him. But if an offer is made and he wants to go, what is the alternative and how is it better?

Don’t accept the offer. How many more times! 

This gets exasperating after a while, but if we don't accept what is a good and fair offer and the player wants to go to that club - what is the point in keeping him?  Better to have players that want to be here.

[dylanisabaddog 4,867]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Don’t accept the offer. How many more times! 

Jim Smith. Sorry Todd, you're staying here 

TC - sits on the pitch for 30 minutes then goes home and makes a video telling people he's going and in the meantime he's not playing. 

 

What are you going to do then Jim? Get real FFS

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

This gets exasperating after a while, but if we don't accept what is a good and fair offer and the player wants to go to that club - what is the point in keeping him?  Better to have players that want to be here.

I agree with you and @Badger, once we have an acceptable offer and the player wants to leave there is little we can do. 

However, that doesn't mean we couldn't have approached things differently before we get to that place. 

I.e. if we never set out our stall as a club willing to negotiate and sell our key players for pretty reasonable prices at the start of the window, then perhaps we would not put ourselves in a position of weakness where we can't then say no later in the window when clubs try to pinch our players with little time for reinvestment. As obviously that will be going back on our word to those players  - and rightly pissing them off. 

What we did to get the Buendia sale done was understandable, and in theory should've been a good way to kick start our incomings (sadly this hasn't really transpired but I am sure that is no fault of our own). 

However, is it now biting us on the bum a little bit? We haven't managed to reinvest from the Buendia sale properly and now we may lose Cantwell late in the window? 

Again, comparing that to the word of other promoted clubs prior to the window and it is no surprise we are finding it far harder to keep our squad together compared to those sides - or indeed any promoted PL side historically.

I am not saying what we have done is right or wrong by the way, I agree that if someone offers £40 million for Cantwell then we should probably take it - assuming we are happy we can reinvest. 

My point is merely to say that our very clear position on selling our top players has now given us less power to resist a transfer which is no longer on our terms and far from ideal for our season's planning. 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Where have I said that? Ive said I find it surprising our fan base just accepts it. I’ve not said anyone is thick. 

You may not have used that word, but your posting history is one long tirade against what you do see as many fans' sheep-like acceptance of the owners and their supposedly unambitious and limiting ownership model. That is tantamount to regarding them as stupid, or gullible. I don't see much difference there.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

8 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I agree with you and @Badger, once we have an acceptable offer and the player wants to leave there is little we can do. 

However, that doesn't mean we couldn't have approached things differently before we get to that place. 

I.e. if we never set out our stall as a club willing to negotiate and sell our key players for pretty reasonable prices at the start of the window, then perhaps we would not put ourselves in a position of weakness where we can't then say no later in the window when clubs try to pinch our players with little time for reinvestment. As obviously that will be going back on our word to those players  - and rightly pissing them off. 

What we did to get the Buendia sale done was understandable, and in theory should've been a good way to kick start our incomings (sadly this hasn't really transpired but I am sure that is no fault of our own). 

However, is it now biting us on the bum a little bit? We haven't managed to reinvest from the Buendia sale properly and now we may lose Cantwell late in the window? 

Again, comparing that to the word of other promoted clubs prior to the window and it is no surprise we are finding it far harder to keep our squad together compared to those sides - or indeed any promoted PL side historically.

I am not saying what we have done is right or wrong by the way, I agree that if someone offers £40 million for Cantwell then we should probably take it - assuming we are happy we can reinvest. 

My point is merely to say that our very clear position on selling our top players has now given us less power to resist a transfer which is no longer on our terms and far from ideal for our season's planning. 

Assuming Tzolis goes ahead we will then have spent about £25.5m this window purely on transfer and loan fees. That seems a reasonable kickstart reinvestment to me.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

16 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Assuming Tzolis goes ahead we will then have spent about £25.5m this window purely on transfer and loan fees. That seems a reasonable kickstart reinvestment to me.

This would be true if you hadn't completely ignored our starting budget of £15mil-20mil! 

So I would still expect to see plenty more to be spent from what we already had plus the Buendia sale. I stand by what I said, we haven't managed to properly reinvest the Buendia sale proceeds as yet - I expect we will see two more players come in before we have. 

Regardless, the fact that we are having to wait this long in the window to really see the incomings from selling Buendia is kind of telling that it never 'kickstarted' our transfer business.

What I mean by that is we are only at best midway through spending the Buendia money and correcting the balance in the squad, if we now sell Cantwell we have a backlog of two players to address.

Whereas if we'd already used all the Buendia money with several incomings (as I'm sure Webber would've liked to by now), then it would clearly be an easier task to spend just the Cantwell funds. 

Its just another reason why I am hesitant over selling Cantwell and hope it doesn't happen - even if we do get £40mil. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

10 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

This would be true if you hadn't completely ignored our starting budget of £15mil-20mil! 

So I would still expect to see plenty more to be spent from what we already had plus the Buendia sale. I stand by what I said, we haven't managed to properly reinvest the Buendia sale proceeds as yet - I expect we will see two more players come in before we have. 

Regardless, the fact that we are having to wait this long in the window to really see the incomings from selling Buendia is kind of telling that it never 'kickstarted' our transfer business.

What I mean by that is we are only at best midway through spending the Buendia money and correcting the balance in the squad, if we now sell Cantwell we have a backlog of two players to address.

Whereas if we'd already used all the Buendia money with several incomings (as I'm sure Webber would've liked to by now), then it would clearly be an easier task to spend just the Cantwell funds. 

Its just another reason why I am hesitant over selling Cantwell and hope it doesn't happen - even if we do get £40mil. 

I hadn't forgotten that. But I was factoring in the sheer time and effort it takes to do a deal, so there is always a delay in spending the incoming money. Just getting Tzolis, assuming it happens, has been quite the mini-saga. And a quick and very rough look suggests we have done more incoming deals than most Premier League clubs so far. Seven including Tzolis and making the two loan deals permanent. Liverpool, for example, have only done one.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

57 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

This gets exasperating after a while, but if we don't accept what is a good and fair offer and the player wants to go to that club - what is the point in keeping him?  Better to have players that want to be here.

Because Lakey, we can’t field a team of stacks of pound notes. It’s all very well selling Todd for £40m, but £40m can’t provide goals and assists in the Premier League. Given the apparent difficulty in landing our targets this window I’d rather keep a slightly disgruntled Todd with the promise that we’ll sell him regardless of whether we stay up, do so and then have more cash to replace him next year.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

18 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

This would be true if you hadn't completely ignored our starting budget of £15mil-20mil! 

So I would still expect to see plenty more to be spent from what we already had plus the Buendia sale. I stand by what I said, we haven't managed to properly reinvest the Buendia sale proceeds as yet - I expect we will see two more players come in before we have. 

Regardless, the fact that we are having to wait this long in the window to really see the incomings from selling Buendia is kind of telling that it never 'kickstarted' our transfer business.

What I mean by that is we are only at best midway through spending the Buendia money and correcting the balance in the squad, if we now sell Cantwell we have a backlog of two players to address.

Whereas if we'd already used all the Buendia money with several incomings (as I'm sure Webber would've liked to by now), then it would clearly be an easier task to spend just the Cantwell funds. 

Its just another reason why I am hesitant over selling Cantwell and hope it doesn't happen - even if we do get £40mil. 

We don’t need to spend all the Buendia money and the initial budget, to have ‘properly reinvested’.

Getting Rashica and Tzolis as replacements for significantly less than the fee we got for Buendia, is fantastic business and should be applauded. If you don’t think the replacements are good enough then that’s your opinion but as has been proven numerous times, good players can be bought for less than others (usually in the inflated english leagues) are sold for.

[hogesar 9,617]

Just now, Fiery Zac said:

We don’t need to spend all the Buendia money and the initial budget, to have ‘properly reinvested’.

Getting Rashica and Tzolis as replacements for significantly less than the fee we got for Buendia, is fantastic business and should be applauded. If you don’t think the replacements are good enough then that’s your opinion but as has been proven numerous times, good players can be bought for less than others (usually in the inflated english leagues) are sold for.

The reality is a section of our fans would be much happier if we had paid 25m each for both players, despite it not making them any  better on the pitch.

[Badger 2,405]

This is why it is difficult to take what you say seriously KF - you say one thing early in the day and then contradict it within hours. This morning, you don't want "squillonaires", "just a sensible level of investment."

This afternoon, Leicester and Wolves are "good examples" of what you want. That would be

1. The Leicester owner, Aiyawatt Srivaddhanaprabha, "last year named among the richest owners of sports clubs in the world" worth about £3 billion.

2. The Wolves owner, "Guo Guangchang has been named among the richest owners of sports clubs in the world." He is worth $6.8 billion.

You say that it is a pathetic insult to allege that you want a "squillionaire," and then a few hours later the same day identify two as examples of what we should be doing!

Normally when you are caught out you find a weak excuse to avoid responding, or rely simply on insult. Perhaps this time you could give something more substantive in the spirit of "civil and mature discussion" because at the moment you seem either muddled or mendacious.

Spot the difference!

7 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

So no I don't want a squillionaire (what a pathetic insult that was 1/10... got to try harder smiley face...zzzzzzzz) just a sensible level of investment to give to Webber

 

3 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Investment, whether that is in loans, shares or individual contributions can go a long way to strengthening a club (Leicester / Wolves are good examples). 

[lake district canary 4,531]

8 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

This gets exasperating after a while, but if we don't accept what is a good and fair offer and the player wants to go to that club - what is the point in keeping him?  Better to have players that want to be here.

Because Lakey, we can’t field a team of stacks of pound notes. It’s all very well selling Todd for £40m, but £40m can’t provide goals and assists in the Premier League. Given the apparent difficulty in landing our targets this window I’d rather keep a slightly disgruntled Todd with the promise that we’ll sell him regardless of whether we stay up, do so and then have more cash to replace him next year.

You can't run a team, particularlly a Farke team that relies on togethereness of spirit, if you have disgruntled players.

[Badger 2,405]

54 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

My point is merely to say that our very clear position on selling our top players has now given us less power to resist a transfer which is no longer on our terms and far from ideal for our season's planning. 

Your point is reasonable but I'm not sure whether it makes any difference. We all know people who talk tough but have to bow to the inevitable. The truth of the matter is that I don't know if it would make any difference - I'm sort of guessing that if he thought it would Webber would adopt this approach, but who knows?

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

Just now, lake district canary said:

You can't run a team, particularlly a Farke team that relies on togethereness of spirit, if you have disgruntled players.

You won’t have a team capable of staying in the EPL if you keep selling all the talent that got you there in the first place and can’t replace it.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

12 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

We don’t need to spend all the Buendia money and the initial budget, to have ‘properly reinvested’.

Getting Rashica and Tzolis as replacements for significantly less than the fee we got for Buendia, is fantastic business and should be applauded. If you don’t think the replacements are good enough then that’s your opinion but as has been proven numerous times, good players can be bought for less than others (usually in the inflated english leagues) are sold for.

I agree I like the business we've done so far, but we're still some way off where we need to be IMO.

I'd certainly be pretty disappointed if we finished with the team we've currently got plus Tzolis, having sold Buendia. 

As Purple calculated above that's £25.5mil spent discounting additional fees (i.e. not a great deal over our original budget). 

If we sold Buendia just to spend £10 mil of what we got for him then I'd wonder why the hell we bothered putting him in the shop window?! 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[lake district canary 4,531]

2 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

You can't run a team, particularlly a Farke team that relies on togethereness of spirit, if you have disgruntled players.

You won’t have a team capable of staying in the EPL if you keep selling all the talent that got you there in the first place and can’t replace it.

Who says we can't replace it though?  Chances are that what we have brought in so far will do well, others will step up and new players to come in.  Don't like seeing star players go, but if they do, we build up the strength of the team/squad on the proceeds. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

10 minutes ago, Badger said:

Your point is reasonable but I'm not sure whether it makes any difference. We all know people who talk tough but have to bow to the inevitable. The truth of the matter is that I don't know if it would make any difference - I'm sort of guessing that if he thought it would Webber would adopt this approach, but who knows?

Who knows. But I think its a fair comment to assume that it probably has made an impact, seeing as we are the first newly promoted prem side I can think of who have had their best player cherry picked from them - and potentially their second best too!