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Jim Smith

Cantwell. Surely there comes a time to draw the line on more

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27 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

we have money because we continue to sell our best players

Well done for getting a vital part of our long-term strategy right at last. Not that the club haven't been shouting out the necessity of this from the rooftops. More than happy for you to name us one of those billionaires desperate to throw hundreds of millions at the club to negate this current requirement in squad development.

Edited by horsefly

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33 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

It is just a bit convenient to me that the players who then actually get sold are the want-away bad eggs who will drive to villa park Peter Odemwingie style if they don’t get their moves - and all the ones who happen to stay are obviously completely happy here!

Completely off topic, but I really feel sorry for Peter Odemwingie that his legacy in English football is as the poster boy for wantaway players when I don't think that was even the case.

It was transfer deadline day and QPR were in advanced talks to sign him, so either his agent or someone at West Brom must have told him to get down to QPR so the deal could be completed before the deadline. Sky Sports collared him outside the ground and he gave the interview as if the deal was done, then talks broke down and it didn't go through. I don't really think it was his fault.

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

personally I think it’s worth us taking the risk we get less (but still probably £15m plus) for him next summer if we have to sell then. 

So very easy to say when you're not the one who has to explain to the rest of the board why you chucked away the opportunity of reaping £40m to spend on squad development and the financial security of the club.

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We have money because we continue to sell our best players. That's exactly how a self-funded model works. Buy low, develop, sell high. Buy at higher level than previous low, develop, sell higher. Rinse, repeat. Get a stronger basic squad of seasoned players that are better than what went before as a base for the real talent to shine.

Four years ago we bought in Marley Watkins on a free and sold him for over a million (now getting a million for that guy was impressive!). We bought in Lukas Rupp with the proceeds. We sold Maddison for £25m. We bought in Buendia for a total, incl. clauses, of around £5m. Then sold him for £33m and both have sell-on clauses so our earning off them isn't done yet if they're sold again. We sold Godfrey for £25m. Got Gibson in for less than half that, and won another Championship. Sold Lewis for £15m, bought in Giannoulis for half that. And you can readily argue that Gibson and Giannoulis are better players right now than the men they replaced. Not to mention already well integrated in the team forming part of that backline which held up so well in the Champs.

Lees-Melou is looking an absolute steal at £5m in terms of potential, but only Premier League time will tell.

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

What do you mean “oh dear”. The notion we can replace Cantwell with “better players” when we basically can’t spend more than £10m or pay wages above £30,000 a week is frankly nonsense. 

Lees-Melou cost £3.5m and I bet he's on around £30k per week. He looks a good player to me and time will tell this season whether his numbers get close to Todd's. Rashica cost three times that and is probably on a similar wage. 

The idea that Todd is irreplaceable with these quoted figures is pure (negative) conjecture on your part, unsurprisingly. 

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20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But you've been one of those advocating for owners with more money to give to Webber to spend? We're generating more money to spend and now the jury is out? You can't have it both ways.

Unless you want new owners to come in, sack Webber and Farke and start from scratch? Which one is it?

No you have obviously not been listening. The current owners do not invest money into the club... I get that they don't have it. The jury is obviously out in that we sold our talisman for £33m (looking very cheap don't you think with Grealish going for £100m) because we had no cash flow. We don't know if the replacements will have anywhere near the impact Buendia obviously would have had.  I would like a sensible amount of investment in the squad that allows Farke & Webber to keep their best players whilst strengthening. Watford & Brentford seem to have been able to do it. Surely even you can see that argument even if you disagree,

We are always struggling because it takes time to take a raw recruit and turn him into Buendia. We don't have that luxury if we want to stay in the top flight but I guess that's not important to you.

So no I don't want a squillionaire (what a pathetic insult that was 1/10... got to try harder smiley face...zzzzzzzz) just a sensible level of investment to give to Webber (you have already said he is a genius so there will be no risk.. can't have it both ways) to aim to keep us in the top flight with the huge money that brings (imagine 5/6 /7 years of premiership investment).

Cue the same tired insults. No wonder this board is so badly populated these days.

 

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4 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

No you have obviously not been listening. The current owners do not invest money into the club... I get that they don't have it. The jury is obviously out in that we sold our talisman for £33m (looking very cheap don't you think with Grealish going for £100m) because we had no cash flow. We don't know if the replacements will have anywhere near the impact Buendia obviously would have had.  I would like a sensible amount of investment in the squad that allows Farke & Webber to keep their best players whilst strengthening. Watford & Brentford seem to have been able to do it. Surely even you can see that argument even if you disagree,

We are always struggling because it takes time to take a raw recruit and turn him into Buendia. We don't have that luxury if we want to stay in the top flight but I guess that's not important to you.

So no I don't want a squillionaire (what a pathetic insult that was 1/10... got to try harder smiley face...zzzzzzzz) just a sensible level of investment to give to Webber (you have already said he is a genius so there will be no risk.. can't have it both ways) to aim to keep us in the top flight with the huge money that brings (imagine 5/6 /7 years of premiership investment).

Cue the same tired insults. No wonder this board is so badly populated these days.

 

1) I have been listening. You and others have repeatedly talked on this forum about giving Webber and Farke proper money to play with to sign players. If we sold Cantwell, plus the money already available, we'd be talking a possible 50-60 million pounds. Is that not proper money? It doesn't make sense to one day talk about giving Webber proper money to spend via different investment / new owners and then the next day bemoaning Webbers record in the prem and saying the Jury is still out. The two don't go hand in hand and you've ignored that point completely and tried to make a different one.

2) We're not taking recruits as 'raw' as Buendia, in theory. We're not fishing in the £1.5 million market, we're fishing in the 10x that market.

3) I didn't insult you.

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Again, the tired nonsense that Buendia was sold cheap makes an appearance.

1. British players will always command considerably higher fees from fellow UK clubs than foreign players of similar ability simply due to home-grown regulations and the need to put home-grown players in the squad. This means any comparison of a foreign player and a UK player in terms of price within this market is a classic case of comparing apples with pears.

2. Arsenal sniffed around but didn't bid as much as Villa. No-one else even bid. So the market paid the rate they thought Buendia was worth. Wasn't that he was an unknown property here in the top echelons of UK football as he'd already played there, so plenty of time for clubs to get their bids together. Classic example of the free market in action. Also a classic example of how we can get a bit too emotional as fans in our rating of a player.

I can accept an argument that Buendia could have been sold later on and potentially grabbed a few more millions, but I'd practically guarantee we'd be over a barrel and not had the likes of Rashica and Lees-Melou already signed, or be seemingly well on our way with Tzolis without this sale. We'd basically be looking for a slightly better version of Marley Watkins again and worse still, paying massively through the nose for it. In other words, this proactivity probably saved us far more money in fees paid out than what we lost in what we - potentially - could have gained through Buendia.

Edited by TheGunnShow
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1 minute ago, Kenny Foggo said:

The jury is obviously out in that we sold our talisman for £33m (looking very cheap don't you think with Grealish going for £100m) because we had no cash flow.

Evidence?

2 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

So no I don't want a squillionaire (what a pathetic insult that was 1/10... got to try harder smiley face...zzzzzzzz) just a sensible level of investment to give to Webber

What is a "sensible level of investment?" How is it to be paid for?

4 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I would like a sensible amount of investment in the squad that allows Farke & Webber to keep their best players whilst strengthening.

Any evidence that a "sensible level of investment" would allow Farke and Webber to keep their  best players? If Southampton had more investment, would they have kept Ings and Bertrand? If Villa had more investment, would they have kept Grealish (assuming he goes)?

Please provide some detail and evidence rather than unsubstantiated platitudes.

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10 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Well we know that you would response this way.. so no surprise you are happy at another major talent leaving for a rival.

My somewhat flippant point being, as Alex and others have posted, Jim has said exactly the same many, many times and is saying nothing different in this new thread. We already understand his position, even if it paints most of us as “blind” and passive, (which frankly is a little insulting), but he seems to think repeating it often enough will change our minds. Well so far the argument is failing, so maybe it either needs to be made more effectively, or - heaven forbid - it’s wrong.

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15 minutes ago, Badger said:

Evidence?

What is a "sensible level of investment?" How is it to be paid for?

Any evidence that a "sensible level of investment" would allow Farke and Webber to keep their  best players? If Southampton had more investment, would they have kept Ings and Bertrand? If Villa had more investment, would they have kept Grealish (assuming he goes)?

Please provide some detail and evidence rather than unsubstantiated platitudes.

Buendia is a £33m player when Grealish is a £100m. Lots and lots of us think he was too cheap.

A sensible level of investment is want the experts like Webber think would be needed to stay in the top flight. It would be paid by the millions you get for staying in the top flight. You know we get more money being in the top flight yes?

A sensible level of investment would certainly make it easier to keep our best players yes. We have a net spend of £2m so far (time to go I admit) and no club have stayed in this division with that level of investment. 100% fact.

Right got a job to do & you'll never be interested in a civil or mature discussion ("Provide some details please..." LOL! Its a forum & you are not my teacher or boss..)

Have a lovely day! OTBC

 

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31 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

Lees-Melou cost £3.5m and I bet he's on around £30k per week. He looks a good player to me and time will tell this season whether his numbers get close to Todd's. Rashica cost three times that and is probably on a similar wage. 

The idea that Todd is irreplaceable with these quoted figures is pure (negative) conjecture on your part, unsurprisingly. 

French footballers are not that well paid apart from the top few clubs. Apparently he wasn’t hitting £10k a week before come here so maybe £15+ at a push. 

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1 hour ago, Coneys Knee said:

Yes your points are valid. I understand them and agree with some of them. I was making reference more to the condescending style of delivery I think.

Anyway, I think emotions always run high when top players get sold or get talked about being sold. We all would surely want them to stay in an ideal world. It’s a hard life being a football supporter.

That’s totally fair enough, Coney, and I totally respect that. Yes I’m not backwards in coming forwards, but I have reasoned and friendly debate with people regularly on here and have done since it’s inception, the times I might be a bit condescending if you like is when I just get exasperated with repetitive tunnel vision from a certain 1 or 2 who refuse to acknowledge the very reasonable possibility that such a situation can actually end in a fashion that actually benefits us in the end (even if they don’t *think* it will). I have asked Jim perfectly politely a certain question that he refuses to answer, and it’s quite telling that he can’t, but I won’t highlight it a third time on here as this thread is destined to run in circles for pages and pages, and I’m not wasting my time with it any further as I’ve made my feelings known on the Todd situation. On another note, I’m also extremely suspicious of those that can never give credit where credits due to the club when they pull off a blinder - a typical example would be ‘yes Webber did sign Buendia BUT…..’ . There’s always a ‘but’ and that says it all! Faint praise, huh? One thing I’m always aware of is this - it certainly wouldn’t be the first time we’ve had a disgruntled ex Carrow Rd employee post on this forum with a bit of an agenda if you like, and that isn’t being aimed at any particular poster, that’s just a general point.

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57 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

You know we get more money being in the top flight yes?

 

57 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

you'll never be interested in a civil or mature discussion

Would you like to explain the compatibility of those two quotes? 

BTW perhaps you might like to remind Bolton, Sunderland, Portsmouth, etc, etc, etc of that first point. They spent an awful lot of money to get themselves a place in the bottom two divisions and financially wreck their clubs.

Edited by horsefly
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22 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

My somewhat flippant point being, as Alex and others have posted, Jim has said exactly the same many, many times and is saying nothing different in this new thread. We already understand his position, even if it paints most of us as “blind” and passive, (which frankly is a little insulting), but he seems to think repeating it often enough will change our minds. Well so far the argument is failing, so maybe it either needs to be made more effectively, or - heaven forbid - it’s wrong.

Exactly this, Nuff. Could not agree more, and for someone to say I’m condescending or belittling towards Jim, well, the flip side of the coin is that I find his views towards many of us exactly the same. I’m certainly not going to *start* threads that basically call all other posters thick just because we can see the sensibility in selling Todd as this point. Which is exactly what Jim did. If you poke the fire, don’t cry when you get burnt is my feeling. 

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Just now, Alex Moss said:

Exactly this, Nuff. Could not agree more, and for someone to say I’m condescending or belittling towards Jim, well, the flip side of the coin is that I find his views towards many of us exactly the same. I’m certainly not going to *start* threads that basically call all other posters thick just because we can see the sensibility in selling Todd as this point. Which is exactly what Jim did. If you poke the fire, don’t cry when you get burnt is my feeling. 

Exactly this. From my experience, those who complain about forum drama the most are usually those who perpetrate it.

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It’s very frustrating Emi £33 million Grealish £100 million of course we sold way way below the market rate, it can’t be denied 

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4 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

It’s very frustrating Emi £33 million Grealish £100 million of course we sold way way below the market rate, it can’t be denied 

Except it obviously can, because the market rate is determined by what other clubs are willing to pay for a player. If clubs other than Villa had thought he was worth more they would have gazumped their bid. No club did, ergo Buendia's market value was £38m (including add-ons).

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

If Cantwell had been signed last summer abd was 1 year into a 3 year contract would there be this fuss?

personally I think it’s worth us taking the risk we get less (but still probably £15m plus) for him next summer if we have to sell then. 

Pointless "what if". I have only dealt with facts - you are arguing now that if he was a different player, if he hadn't come through the academy, if he had signed last summer and not had the two seasons with us and one on loan before it...

None are relevant. The interest in him is based upon his success in the premier league last time out, his success last season and probably some on his form in pre season.

He has been at the club for a long time, he has ambitions to play as high a level as he can, champions league and for England.

You cannot force a player to want to stay. It is that simple. And as Webber has said before, the only thing for a club to do at that point, is to try and realise the best possible value in a player.

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45 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Right got a job to do & you'll never be interested in a civil or mature discussion

On the contrary, I would very much welcome one, but I little evidence of the maturity or the civility in what you state. I'd be happy to discuss information and facts with supported by evidence, but frankly you have provided none. You tend to make trite statements which are merely a repetition of the exactly the material that other malcontents make.  They are equally unsupported by fact and nevertheless, expect them to be treated with reverence.

All I am asking you to do is support what you say, however, you seem unwilling or unable to do so.

1. Asked to provide evidence that the wage offer we could make to Buendia was £30,000 and you cited none.

2. Denying that you want a billionaire, and asked that you consider to be a sensible level of investment you say ""

52 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

A sensible level of investment is want the experts like Webber think would be needed to stay in the top flight. It would be paid by the millions you get for staying in the top flight. You know we get more money being in the top flight yes?

Is this the mature and civil debate of what you speak? To me it sounds vacuous - it doesn't identify a level of investment nor how it would be paid for. you criticise Webber on one hand for selling Buendia too cheaply and then within a paragraph describe him as an expert? There is no intellectual coherence to what you say.

3. Then you say

54 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

We have a net spend of £2m so far (time to go I admit) and no club have stayed in this division with that level of investment. 100% fact.

Even you qualify your own point! But then assert it as 100% Fact (whatever that means).

I would very much welcome a mature and sensible discussion on the matter Kenny, but you don't seem to want one. Perhaps I am being too harsh, so I ask again, what is a sensible level of investment and how would you pay for it?

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3 hours ago, chicken said:

Where has he expressed this? 

Think back to his almighty strop at the start of last season when he was left out of the team 

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4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Armstrong who has one year left on his contract so is presumably worth very little applying the logic on here? Blackburn don’t seem to be losing him for a pittance.

Blackburn have yet to sell Armstrong. 

We have put a £40m price on Cantwell. Obviously that's just setting expectations but we're certainly not giving him away 

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5 minutes ago, Badger said:

On the contrary, I would very much welcome one, but I little evidence of the maturity or the civility in what you state. I'd be happy to discuss information and facts with supported by evidence, but frankly you have provided none. You tend to make trite statements which are merely a repetition of the exactly the material that other malcontents make.  They are equally unsupported by fact and nevertheless, expect them to be treated with reverence.

All I am asking you to do is support what you say, however, you seem unwilling or unable to do so.

1. Asked to provide evidence that the wage offer we could make to Buendia was £30,000 and you cited none.

2. Denying that you want a billionaire, and asked that you consider to be a sensible level of investment you say ""

Is this the mature and civil debate of what you speak? To me it sounds vacuous - it doesn't identify a level of investment nor how it would be paid for. you criticise Webber on one hand for selling Buendia too cheaply and then within a paragraph describe him as an expert? There is no intellectual coherence to what you say.

3. Then you say

Even you qualify your own point! But then assert it as 100% Fact (whatever that means).

I would very much welcome a mature and sensible discussion on the matter Kenny, but you don't seem to want one. Perhaps I am being too harsh, so I ask again, what is a sensible level of investment and how would you pay for it?

Can I just add to that the fact that we lost £35m because of Covid. Where on earth do people think that sort of money is coming from? 

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This notion that we can sell Todd for £40m and simply spend the proceeds to make the team/squad better is nonsense. 
 

If he goes, we’d have lost 2 of our front 3 from last season and arguably our 2 best players. That’s probably the best part of 50 goals from last season in terms of the goal itself and assists. 

You can’t just go out and replace that for so many reasons. It’s just not that simple.


 

 

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It is a hard one as a player, look at Jamal, moved to Newcastle just about survived relegation after a very average first half of the season and then fell out of favour meanwhile Cantwell stayed and won a second championship title. Money is nice, but winning things is even nicer. 

I think to be fair to Cantwell he still has the opportunity to become a top player, but at 23 age is not going to be with him much longer. This season, whether he stays with us or moves on will be important for him as to whether he can make the step up. He's definitely better than your average player, but is he a capable of being a top player?

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31 minutes ago, Clint said:

This notion that we can sell Todd for £40m and simply spend the proceeds to make the team/squad better is nonsense. 
 

If he goes, we’d have lost 2 of our front 3 from last season and arguably our 2 best players. That’s probably the best part of 50 goals from last season in terms of the goal itself and assists. 

You can’t just go out and replace that for so many reasons. It’s just not that simple.


 

 

Completely agree with this. Everyone keeps battering me down when I say £40M is nice, but it doesn't buy you the same player in return. Yes we can sign cheaper players with high potential, but it won't help us stay up this season. We need players who can make an instant impact and win us games, Todd is absolutely one of those and won't be cheap to replace like for like

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33 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Can I just add to that the fact that we lost £35m because of Covid. Where on earth do people think that sort of money is coming from? 

Kenny has explained that we would get it it from the extra money we gain from staying up. He suspected that we don't know this - presumably because it is some sort of closely guarded secret that only the experts know? 😁

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35 minutes ago, Clint said:

This notion that we can sell Todd for £40m and simply spend the proceeds to make the team/squad better is nonsense. 
 

If he goes, we’d have lost 2 of our front 3 from last season and arguably our 2 best players. That’s probably the best part of 50 goals from last season in terms of the goal itself and assists. 

You can’t just go out and replace that for so many reasons. It’s just not that simple.


 

 

This..  I feel for Farke & thank god we have him. Let's hope Webber finds that Tank and ammunition for him

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52 minutes ago, Clint said:

This notion that we can sell Todd for £40m and simply spend the proceeds to make the team/squad better is nonsense. 
 

If he goes, we’d have lost 2 of our front 3 from last season and arguably our 2 best players. That’s probably the best part of 50 goals from last season in terms of the goal itself and assists. 

You can’t just go out and replace that for so many reasons. It’s just not that simple.


 

 

I don't think anybody wants to lose him. But if an offer is made and he wants to go, what is the alternative and how is it better?

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It will all come down to how much Villa want him. If they bid 30m... He will almost certainly be off (hopefully with us negotiating the fee a little closer to 40m). The contract situation doesn't leave us in the strongest position - and from the sounds of it, part of the reason we can attract top young talent is that we don't stand in their way when a stronger/more ambitious team comes in for them*.

While I would be surprised if Villa bid the required amount - they will have 100m burning a hole in their pocket and have strong financial backing even before the sale. 

The club make a big deal about having a contingency for any player leaving... I hope it doesn't get put to the test, but I fear we may do. 

* It pains me to say that about Villa - but we don't really have a leg to stand on when arguing otherwise.

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