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Jim Smith

Cantwell. Surely there comes a time to draw the line on more

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

It depends how the money would be reinvested. We started off with a £20-30m budget allegedly and our net spend of circa minus £10m so far has pushed that even higher, so selling Cantwell could see us having potentially £60m to play with. That's four quality players, or two quality players and a stand.

Our net spend is £2m. As started our top wages are £35k a week.... Reality check

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The key factor is Todd himself. Local lad, grew up at the club, serious talent. But he wasn’t even a Norwich fan, and, as much as I’d love him to stay, his personal ambition/career is what really matters. If we play hardball and upset the player? Not sure. Yeah, we have a years option but if this IS the move that he wants and fits the career progression he desires, what does blocking it achieve for us? 

I really want him to stay but if all the boxes are ticked and we - here is the crux - have irons in the fire to strengthen across the squad, is it THAT bad? Of course, as with all transfer business we won’t find out until after the fact. If we pull in pushing £75-80m on two players and then have a half arsed effort at staying up, criticism will rightly be levelled at the club and I’d be worried that we’d sold our two most creative players following promotion. But….. and it’s a big but…..it COULD facilitate an influx of players that could strengthen us in more than one area. 
 

The difficulty is replacing that ‘spark’. Having money to spend is ace but spending it ‘well’ is inherently more problematic. With ten days to go it is far from ideal but what will happen will happen. I genuinely don’t think there’s a huge amount we can do about it. Just like if someone lumps in for Max, a similar thing will occur. We promise the pathway for these young lads, we won’t sign many more if we start blocking that pathway. 
 

We’re at the next stage now, the second promotion surely means that we buy for now and not only the future. We’ve also got until the window closes, our ****ey start actually gives us a bit more time because we’ve got a start where any point we get is one gained. 

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The board would rightly be crucified if they sold Cantwell and continued to fail to land targets, and I would hope Webber is well aware of this. Our net investment in the squad this window is likely still negative, despite being promoted, and it's far from clear that this season's squad is better than last. 

Farke's interview today about expecting more recruits seemed pretty telling to me. It sounded in part to be a public message to the board about what he expects them to deliver. The fans won't be the only ones upset if Webber sells our best players to Villa upon being promoted and then fails to invest the profit in the team. 

People might suggest that he didn't just send them into battle without a gun; he gave the gun to Villa. 

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6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

But the way it works is that if an offer comes in from anywhere and Cantwell wants to go to that club, then as long as that offer is high enough, then there is nothing you or I can do about it so we have to crack on and look for new heroes. I'm totally with you, I don't think Villa, for all their spending, will necessarily do any better than us this season. I don't think Buendia will do as well there as he did at Norwich, I don't think Cantwell would do well there either - the club has a history of underacheiving and overly high expectations and pressure from the fans.

I wanted Buendia stay and be part of this season, then do so well that a top six club would want him next season for much more money. I want Cantwell to stay for the same reason, but if they want to go and the offer is high enough, that is up to them. It's their careers and if they think Villa is the place to be, let them go and find out for themselves it maybe isn't so great.

The one thing I do know for sure is that mithering about it isn't going to help and that if players are sold we just have to look for how their replacements step into the team.  From what I saw the other night, we have reasons to be optimistic that Gilmour and Lees-Melou offer something that may prove to be superb this season - and we haven't even seen much of Rashica yet - and may yet get other exciting players in, especially if another one of our stars is sold.

 

Your first paragraph is what I have a problem with. That should not be the case when we are trying to build a team. An environment has been created where it is just expected/accepted that we eill allow players to go. 
 

I get that no bid has actually come in or that we don’t yet know if Cantwell will be sold but I want to hear the club issuing a hands off warning not Webber’s continual “well it will take a big fee” lines which make it clear to suitors that we will sell. 

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Hands-off warnings are merely lip service to the gullible, or symbols for the symbol-minded, as George Carlin would have said. Fortunately Webber has a far more pragmatic head on his shoulders and knows player power is much more of an issue, and realises that even one disgruntled player can be toxic in a dressing room (hence the bombing out of players like Oliviera, Leitner, etc.). Ultimately every player has his price and if another club is willing to pay it, let them. Essentially, we're banking on our recruitment and coaching being smarter than theirs.

Furthermore, some young players will always develop such that they outpace the club they are with and Buendia was an obvious case.

The fact we attract so much interest for the quality of our younger players, and earn such fees from them, is a very clear tell that things work. The reward is then getting much more solid, experienced men of quality in like Rashica or indeed Lees-Melou (who looks like the rock-solid all-rounder we needed).

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I've no idea why I bite with this nonsense but 

Man Utd couldn't keep Ronaldo 

Liverpool couldn't keep Coutinho or Winaldum (excuse spelling) 

Spurs are about to lose Kane

Villa are selling Grealish 

Leicester sold Premier League winners and will probably sell Maddison 

 

Welcome to the real world. Cantwell will leave

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7 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I've no idea why I bite with this nonsense but 

Man Utd couldn't keep Ronaldo 

Liverpool couldn't keep Coutinho or Winaldum (excuse spelling) 

Spurs are about to lose Kane

Villa are selling Grealish 

Leicester sold Premier League winners and will probably sell Maddison 

 

Welcome to the real world. Cantwell will leave

They have all achieved things at the top level before selling. They were not trying to establish themselves with limited spending power. 

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3 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

This season Norwich City need Armstrong (or similar) more than they need Cantwell.

Armstrong who has one year left on his contract so is presumably worth very little applying the logic on here? Blackburn don’t seem to be losing him for a pittance.

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

They have all achieved things at the top level before selling. They were not trying to establish themselves with limited spending power. 

Oh dear 😂😂

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4 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Oh dear 😂😂

What do you mean “oh dear”. The notion we can replace Cantwell with “better players” when we basically can’t spend more than £10m or pay wages above £30,000 a week is frankly nonsense. 

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21 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Armstrong who has one year left on his contract so is presumably worth very little applying the logic on here? Blackburn don’t seem to be losing him for a pittance.

I cannot answer for or be beholden to anyone else’s supposed logic or arguments. Yours included, Jim, I am afraid.

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9 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

It depends how the money would be reinvested. We started off with a £20-30m budget allegedly and our net spend of circa minus £10m so far has pushed that even higher, so selling Cantwell could see us having potentially £60m to play with. That's four quality players, or two quality players and a stand.

I think we were allocated £15m from the Buendia sale. Which we then roughly spent on PLM, Gunn and Rashica. Well, ok, most of it covers them.

Problem is, if they genuinely want to add 4-5 players and they want them to be half decent or in some cases better than what we have, then £25m is £5m a piece. Which isn't huge.

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9 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

If the fans really need to be mobilised then the obvious solution is a crowd-funded appeal to pay for a ‘Cantwell must stay’ banner to be flown over Carrow Road.

I thought the correct phrase was "No insert players name here, No Future".

😀

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20 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

What do you mean “oh dear”. The notion we can replace Cantwell with “better players” when we basically can’t spend more than £10m or pay wages above £30,000 a week is frankly nonsense. 

Damn it Jim! Where is you sense of humanity... Sorry, got caught up in a Trekkie moment there.

Logic Jim, logic.

We CAN replace Cantwell if our scouting team repeat the feat of signing the likes of Maddison, Buendia, Dowell, Godfrey etc.

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7 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Our net spend is £2m. As started our top wages are £35k a week.... Reality check

We received an initial £33m for Buendia, and have spent around £9m on Rashica, £5m on Gunn, £4m on Lees-Melou and whatever Gilmour's loan fee may have been, which is a total of around £20m.

Obviously there are other hidden costs like agent fees and other contractual clauses like loyalty bonuses and the like thrown in, and we may not have put the entire £33m into the budget, but we've still made a very healthy profit so far.

If you're trying to count Gibson and Giannoulis in our summer spend by the way, it has been established countless times that their fees were budgeted for last season.

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9 minutes ago, chicken said:

Problem is, if they genuinely want to add 4-5 players and they want them to be half decent or in some cases better than what we have, then £25m is £5m a piece. Which isn't huge.

I was factoring in a potential £30-40m for Cantwell, which would leave our net spend at over £40m profit. How much of that would be reinvested is anyone's guess, however.

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25 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

What do you mean “oh dear”. The notion we can replace Cantwell with “better players” when we basically can’t spend more than £10m or pay wages above £30,000 a week is frankly nonsense. 

I'm afraid I didn't suggest that we could replace Cantwell with a better player. We probably can't. 

In normal circumstances we will struggle to match other clubs spending due to our ownership model which, like it or not, isn't going to change. 

That's in normal circumstances. We have just lost £35m because of Covid. 

As for Cantwell, he clearly wants to leave and who can blame him. He can easily double his wages elsewhere. I've been supporting Norwich for 54 years and remember as a child being baffled that we had sold Ron Davies and Hugh Curran. But I've grown up now and I understand it. 

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Posted (edited)

Its hard but think although its bad timing he will be sold, couple of reasons, I think the rumours will turn his head a bit like last season so not sure how well he will cope with that which may impact his performances, if he has a bad season we will never receive the sort of money touted for him again. Or he could have a great season and he doesn't sign a new contract and we risk losing him on a free..

Edited by Pegz
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8 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

So Jim, ignoring the fact that it was Emi that had decided his time here was done, where are all these shiny new signings going to come from that make us competitive in the Premier League then? You know, the ones that cost shoite loads of money? Seriously, I’m all ears and actually cannot wait for your clear ground breaking solution 👍

So @Jim Smith, would you like to give us your answer, or are you just going to continue to live in your bizarre fantasy world where people are just held hostage within their employment and can’t be allowed to leave for better wages or perceived prospects elsewhere?

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Ive seen this same thread for the past twenty years. The only difference is the prices quoted have gone  from 3 to 4 million up to 30 to 40 million.

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6 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

The key factor is Todd himself. Local lad, grew up at the club, serious talent. But he wasn’t even a Norwich fan, and, as much as I’d love him to stay, his personal ambition/career is what really matters. If we play hardball and upset the player? Not sure. Yeah, we have a years option but if this IS the move that he wants and fits the career progression he desires, what does blocking it achieve for us? 

I really want him to stay but if all the boxes are ticked and we - here is the crux - have irons in the fire to strengthen across the squad, is it THAT bad? Of course, as with all transfer business we won’t find out until after the fact. If we pull in pushing £75-80m on two players and then have a half arsed effort at staying up, criticism will rightly be levelled at the club and I’d be worried that we’d sold our two most creative players following promotion. But….. and it’s a big but…..it COULD facilitate an influx of players that could strengthen us in more than one area. 
 

The difficulty is replacing that ‘spark’. Having money to spend is ace but spending it ‘well’ is inherently more problematic. With ten days to go it is far from ideal but what will happen will happen. I genuinely don’t think there’s a huge amount we can do about it. Just like if someone lumps in for Max, a similar thing will occur. We promise the pathway for these young lads, we won’t sign many more if we start blocking that pathway. 
 

We’re at the next stage now, the second promotion surely means that we buy for now and not only the future. We’ve also got until the window closes, our ****ey start actually gives us a bit more time because we’ve got a start where any point we get is one gained. 

Agree 100% with all of this Duncan, except the sentence in bold. I don’t think any potential players would be put off by the fact we tried to keep our core of players together 10 days before the season started - that is if we did block any further outgoings!

But as you say it’s very much over to Webber and his judgement as to how well he can tip the scales back in our favour after another loss of a huge player.

The final verdict can be left until we’re well into the season, but I don’t think you could fault anyone for letting a little bit of wee out at the fact we could lose Buendia, Skipp and Cantwell without adequate replacements in the squad in the door - yet. I’m sure it would be panic stations behind the scenes too…

If we now sell Cantwell then we could be looking at 5 incomings from now until the end of the window, that’s a hell of a lot of players that need to gel and get used to Farke’s style - which we have seen can take a lot of time in of itself! I would much rather we kept him.

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3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Ive seen this same thread for the past twenty years. The only difference is the prices quoted have gone  from 3 to 4 million up to 30 to 40 million.

Same here, Ricardo. And when pushed on how exactly they would run us as Man Utd, it’s always, without fail, gone very very quiet.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

So @Jim Smith, would you like to give us your answer, or are you just going to continue to live in your bizarre fantasy world where people are just held hostage within their employment and can’t be allowed to leave for better wages or perceived prospects elsewhere?

I would wager that it’s the level of interest in the player that defines whether they stay or go this window, not how much they want to leave the club.

Remember, it was Webber who drummed up the interest in our players - and it wasn’t specific to Buendia - it applied to ALL of our top players.

So imagine if instead of Buendia all the interest came in in respect of Aarons and he was sold and Buendia was kept.

Would Aarons now be your ‘want-away’ player that we had to sell and we would be ‘holding him hostage’ if we tried to keep him?

It just doesn’t make sense.

Buendia wanted a move, yes. Cantwell wants a move, yes. Aarons wants a move, most definitely. I’m sure half our team would want a move to a more established prem team to nearly double their wages, but it doesn’t mean we have to ‘hold them hostage’ to keep them here! Otherwise we may as well sell half the team off now!

You make our position sound much weaker than it is. We were the ones who decided we wanted to sell one or more of our players this window, we were the ones who initiated the interest when we could have equally warned prospective clubs away.

It is just a bit convenient to me that the players who then actually get sold are the want-away bad eggs who will drive to villa park Peter Odemwingie style if they don’t get their moves - and all the ones who happen to stay are obviously completely happy here!

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler
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11 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Same here, Ricardo. And when pushed on how exactly they would run us as Man Utd, it’s always, without fail, gone very very quiet.

I don’t expect us to be run like Man United but when you are told you don’t need to sell players financially to sell your two best attacking midfielders would be bizarre. 

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4 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I would wager that it’s the level of interest in the player that defines whether they stay or go this window, not how much they want to leave the club.

Remember, it was Webber who drummed up the interest in our players - and it wasn’t specific to Buendia - it applied to ALL of our top players.

So imagine if instead of Buendia all the interest came in in respect of Aarons and he was sold and Buendia was kept.

Would Aarons now be your ‘want-away’ player that we had to sell and we would be ‘holding him hostage’ if we tried to keep him?

It just doesn’t make sense.

Buendia wanted a move, yes. Cantwell wants a move, yes. Aarons wants a move, most definitely. I’m sure half our team would want a move to a more established prem team to nearly double their wages, but it doesn’t mean we have to ‘hold them hostage’ to keep them here! Otherwise we may as well sell half the team off now!

You make our position sound much weaker than it is. We were the ones who decided we wanted to sell one or more of our players this window, we were the ones who initiated the interest when we could have equally warned prospective clubs away.

It is just a bit convenient to me that the players who then actually get sold are the want-away bad eggs who will drive to villa park Peter Odemwingie style if they don’t get their moves - and all the ones who happen to stay are obviously completely happy here!

There is also a difference between being up for a move it arises and being desperate to leave. 

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2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I would wager that it’s the level of interest in the player that defines whether he stays or goes this window, not how much they wanted to leave the club.

Remember, it was Webber who drummed up the interest in our players - and it wasn’t specific to Buendia - it applied to ALL of our top players.

So imagine if instead of Buendia all the interest came in in respect of Aarons and he was sold and Buendia was kept.

Would Aarons now be your ‘want-away’ player that we had to sell and we would be ‘holding him hostage’ if we tried to keep him?

It just doesn’t make sense.

Buendia wanted a move, yes. Cantwell wants a move, yes. Aarons wants a move, most definitely. I’m sure half our team would want a move to a more established prem team to nearly double their wages, but it doesn’t mean we have to ‘hold them hostage’ to keep them here!

You make our position sound much weaker than it is. We were the ones who decided we wanted to sell one or more of our players this window, we were the ones who initiated the interest when we could have equally warned prospective clubs away.

It is just a bit convenient to me that the players who then actually get sold are the want-away bad eggs who will drive to villa park Peter Odemwingie style if they don’t get their moves - and all the ones who happen to stay are obviously completely happy here!

But just as in normal life, not everyone is head hunted for the more higher paid and prospective jobs, so it’s not really quite as hard to keep the majority happy is it? 

And Todd and Max aren’t ‘bad eggs’. In fact, there’s been blatant interest for some time, and they’ve both stayed, but there comes a point where you can’t hold someone back further and at that point in the journey you then have a responsibility to get as much money as possible for them and respect their wishes. It’s absolutely no different to any other job.

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1 minute ago, Alex Moss said:

But just as in normal life, not everyone is head hunted for the more higher paid and prospective jobs, so it’s not really quite as hard to keep the majority happy is it? 

And Todd and Max aren’t ‘bad eggs’. In fact, there’s been blatant interest for some time, and they’ve both stayed, but there comes a point where you can’t hold someone back further and at that point in the journey you then have a responsibility to get as much money as possible for them and respect their wishes. It’s absolutely no different to any other job.

With respect it is different to most other salaried jobs. They have signed fixed term contracts which they should honour and they are already earning enough money to set them up for life and playing at the highest level possible in English football. 

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I've no idea why I bite with this nonsense but 

Man Utd couldn't keep Ronaldo 

Liverpool couldn't keep Coutinho or Winaldum (excuse spelling) 

Spurs are about to lose Kane

Villa are selling Grealish 

Leicester sold Premier League winners and will probably sell Maddison 

 

Welcome to the real world. Cantwell will leave

 

Topic closed

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3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

With respect it is different to most other salaried jobs. They have signed fixed term contracts which they should honour and they are already earning enough money to set them up for life and playing at the highest level possible in English football. 

Except, the longer they have left on the contract, the more money the club gets out of it if they're such a hot property that another club wants to buy them out of it. You've already seen the panic going around with Ajer and Armstrong, for starters.

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