Jamal Lewis vs Talk Norwich City

[cambridgeshire canary 6,716]

Interesting..

[lake district canary 4,531]

Fair comment from Jamal. That first season was a huge step for such a young inexperiemced squad. This season is plainly going to be different as the noises coming from CR are much tougher sounding.

[chicken 2,624]

Confirms what I was saying at the time and since though. I'm not sure people fully realise that we had a very young and mentally vulnerable squad that had to be managed superbly well.

Aarons - 19
Lewis - 21
Godfrey - 21

Those were the mainstays in defence.

Cantwell - 21
Buendia - 22

Again, almost ever presents. That is 5 of our regular starting 11 aged 22 or younger. That's massive. Idah was 18. A huge lack of experience in that side, you can't just throw boots or give the hair dryer treatment of a squad that young.

[sgncfc 1,227]

Farke has been saying this since he arrived - his expectations of young players and his understanding of them is clearly one of his strengths. Getting them to that level where defeat or a poor performance is simply unacceptable is a different mindset and takes some time. An 18 year old may be physically ready, but maybe not mentally on the right level and of course others will mature at different times. I doubt there's really much difference between the levels at Norwich and Newcastle to be honest; but the mentality at a top 6 club compared to them must be on a different scale.

Maybe Gareth Southgate would have something to add, having instructed young players to take the penalties against Italy, when he had a number of more senior players available? I wonder if he still thinks that was a good idea?

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

Great reply from Jamal.

[king canary 7,605]

The mentality came from above though- '38 free hits', 'little miracle' all fed into the idea that if we lost it didn't matter.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

It’s also the role of senior pros in the team to have this battling mentality.

I think it was Scot Parker who had a short loan spell with City remarked on this when going into the changing room at half time losing the game at Carrow Rd. Senior pros with families to feed and mortgages to pay wanted that “win bonus” at the time and made their feelings known. It was a reality check for him.

[JB 115]

Not sure Jamal said much wrong here. Norwich and Newcastle were both different scenarios and would therefore warrant a different reaction. 

[Bill 1,788]

If the players had given their all, then what point is there in berating them ?

Maybe the comments at N'castle were based on the fact the team had not given it's all

 

[cornish sam 953]

30 minutes ago, king canary said:

The mentality came from above though- '38 free hits', 'little miracle' all fed into the idea that if we lost it didn't matter.

And what was wrong with that at the time? We always said it was a year too early, the squad was very young. If we put too much on their shoulders it could have affected their whole career had we still failed. If they played badly then I would think they got told that and that wasn't acceptable, but chewing them out for losing when playing well (which we did a lot of before the restart) would have been counter-productive for a lot of the players.

[BobLoz3 492]

Exactly. We went up too early. A very young squad and some terrible injuries too. 

Jamal is right to clap back. Although I don't think the TNC post was that bad. 

Newcastle's fan base will always have way more inflated sense of who they are than Norwich. So the pressure/expectation is always going to be different. Add to that the fact they paid a decent wedge for Jamal (while we didn't, we developed him, admittedly still a big investment) and there you have it. 

[Evil Monkey 52]

He's absolutely right about his quotes being taken out of context, but it's worth pointing out that TNC simply repeated the tweet put out by the Newcastle Chronicle. His ire should be directed at them. 

It should also actually say something about the mentality of Newcastle fans in general at the moment. Yes it's great to want to win every game but they're a long, long way from being the force they once were. Lovely ambishun from the fans and all, but a young talent playing in a poor team (and, as revealed the same interview, playing with long Covid) shouldn't be subjected to their vitriol because the fans can't accept they're now no better than a Crystal Palace... 

[hogesar 9,658]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

The mentality came from above though- '38 free hits', 'little miracle' all fed into the idea that if we lost it didn't matter.

Clearly an intentional attempt to relieve pressure of a very young and inexperienced squad. Unfortunately didnt work well enough although it was great to see the freedom some of them played with pre lockdown.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Civil stuff between both. Jamal's gently corrected them and provided context. And as others have said, Farke's management was spot on.

Without that gentle touch on young players asked to do hard work, especially with so many centre-halves out, we wouldn't have had such a good season this time around as they would have been mentally shot.

If it hadn't been for the lockdown and so many injuries to centre-halves, we wouldn't have been talking about "worst points haul ever in the top flight in NCFC history". We'd have been talking about a lot of battling performances and about being the best team that was bottom. And we'd have had a chance of staying up, little miracle or not.

[king canary 7,605]

54 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

And what was wrong with that at the time? We always said it was a year too early, the squad was very young. If we put too much on their shoulders it could have affected their whole career had we still failed. If they played badly then I would think they got told that and that wasn't acceptable, but chewing them out for losing when playing well (which we did a lot of before the restart) would have been counter-productive for a lot of the players.

Personally I found it weirdly defeatist. We were talking like we were a team who'd never reached these rarified heights before rather than a team that had just won the Championship at a canter. Each to their own but I wasn't a fan.

[king canary 7,605]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Civil stuff between both. Jamal's gently corrected them and provided context. And as others have said, Farke's management was spot on.

Without that gentle touch on young players asked to do hard work, especially with so many centre-halves out, we wouldn't have had such a good season this time around as they would have been mentally shot.

If it hadn't been for the lockdown and so many injuries to centre-halves, we wouldn't have been talking about "worst points haul ever in the top flight in NCFC history". We'd have been talking about a lot of battling performances and about being the best team that was bottom. And we'd have had a chance of staying up, little miracle or not.

This is all totally unproveable. All we can really discuss is what did happen, so I struggle to see how you can so confidently say Farke got his management spot on in this regard.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

This is all totally unproveable. All we can really discuss is what did happen, so I struggle to see how you can so confidently say Farke got his management spot on in this regard.

I'll agree that it's educated guesswork at best, but at the same time, we saw Liverpool struggle badly last season with three centre-halves out at once to the point that they - with a pretty settled team and as defending champions - lost six home games on the spin in a title defence that didn't live up to the name. How often do you see teams in the top-flight have three first-team centre-halves out at once? Pretty damned rare if you ask me.

We also know from the statistical evidence that not many teams come straight back to the Premier League the season after relegation. I'd say the fact the team came straight back up is a fairly telling factor, and the fact they did it in such style an additional one.

[horsefly 4,298]

The only time "That's not good enough" is an acceptable response to defeat is if it is clear that the players haven't given their all. Otherwise, the comment implies a remarkably arrogant belief in some sort of divine right not to lose. Indeed, not only is it arrogant, but also blatantly absurd when the team you're talking about is Newcastle. Give me the Farke way any day of the week. Perhaps the stunted development of Lewis' career has been neatly (intentionally or not) diagnosed by the man himself. I wonder where he would be in that development if he had  remained with the side that won promotion so magnificently.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

The only time "That's not good enough" is an acceptable response to defeat is if it is clear that the players haven't given their all. Otherwise, the comment implies a remarkably arrogant belief in some sort of divine right not to lose. Indeed, not only is it arrogant, but also blatantly absurd when the team you're talking about is Newcastle. Give me the Farke way any day of the week. Perhaps the stunted development of Lewis' career has been neatly (intentionally or not) diagnosed by the man himself. I wonder where he would be in that development if he had  remained with the side that won promotion so magnificently.

Exactly my take. Hairdryer if they've slacked off, encouragement if they've manfully tried but fallen short.

[Yellow and Green 334]

1 hour ago, BobLoz3 said:

Exactly. We went up too early. A very young squad and some terrible injuries too. 

Jamal is right to clap back. Although I don't think the TNC post was that bad. 

Newcastle's fan base will always have way more inflated sense of who they are than Norwich. So the pressure/expectation is always going to be different. Add to that the fact they paid a decent wedge for Jamal (while we didn't, we developed him, admittedly still a big investment) and there you have it. 

This is maybe also an example of how we have created such a good environment for young players to start their careers.

After a decent start, Jamal looked a shadow of his former self at times last season, once the abuse started mounting.

This is one of many reasons why it's reccommended that academy players should play 100 games before they move to a bigger club - within that time they will have seen enough of the highs and lows to cope in a place where things aren't so rosy.

[horsefly 4,298]

23 minutes ago, king canary said:

This is all totally unproveable. All we can really discuss is what did happen, so I struggle to see how you can so confidently say Farke got his management spot on in this regard.

Inevitably all these discussions are unprovable because we have no choice but to trade in counterfactual conditionals. However, let's imagine that Farke had taken the approach contrasted to the actual one he took, and harrangued players on the grounds that any defeat is unacceptable; do you really think that it would have made any genuine difference to the season's outcome other than to have left us with a squad of unconfident and humiliated players?

[king canary 7,605]

13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

The only time "That's not good enough" is an acceptable response to defeat is if it is clear that the players haven't given their all. Otherwise, the comment implies a remarkably arrogant belief in some sort of divine right not to lose. Indeed, not only is it arrogant, but also blatantly absurd when the team you're talking about is Newcastle. Give me the Farke way any day of the week. Perhaps the stunted development of Lewis' career has been neatly (intentionally or not) diagnosed by the man himself. I wonder where he would be in that development if he had  remained with the side that won promotion so magnificently.

That just isn't how professional sports works! We're talking about top quality athletes not kids at a school sports day. If a defender tries their best and gives their all but is constantly out of position would be told 'that's not good enough' by any coach worth their salt.

[horsefly 4,298]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

That just isn't how professional sports works! We're talking about top quality athletes not kids at a school sports day. If a defender tries their best and gives their all but is constantly out of position would be told 'that's not good enough' by any coach worth their salt.

And you really think Farke didn't analyse every game for such instances? There seems to be a strange myth that has developed about Farke that he just wants to pour out love to the youngsters and no criticism. Yet every interview with players that I've seen talk about his genuine honesty about  their performances and his expectations. Buendia and Cantwell certainly knew where they stood at the beginning of last season whenFarke perceived them to be under-performing.

Edited July 28, 2021 by horsefly

[Peanuts 150]

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-insight-pod-leeroy-maguraushe-_xizAw79Suh/

This is the podcast where he makes the comments. It's a good listen and Jamal comes across as very thoughtful, intelligent and well spoken. The quote is accurate but it's clear from the whole conversation that he still has a lot of love for Norwich.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

53 minutes ago, king canary said:

That just isn't how professional sports works! We're talking about top quality athletes not kids at a school sports day. If a defender tries their best and gives their all but is constantly out of position would be told 'that's not good enough' by any coach worth their salt.

There's also the difference between what is said to the media / public at large, and what goes on behind closed doors. Don't forget, Farke was more than happy to publicly have a very quiet word with Omobamidele over some aspects of his game in one of his earliest appearances. Might even have been the Preston one.

Hanging your player out to dry there may well be counter-productive. As Jose Mourinho often finds out the hard way, which is precisely why he can't build teams over time and has to cheque-book his way into fusing players together into effective sides that don't tend to last too long.

[kirku 1,332]

2 hours ago, Evil Monkey said:

He's absolutely right about his quotes being taken out of context, but it's worth pointing out that TNC simply repeated the tweet put out by the Newcastle Chronicle. His ire should be directed at them. 

May well be true, but his comments are for consumption in Norfolk rather than Tyneside.

Personally not a fan of TNC, I get that they're "personalities" and have a decent following but I never see anything of substance from them in terms of analysis or anything like that. Quite the opposite from the little I've seen, to be honest... 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,163]

12 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Farke has been saying this since he arrived - his expectations of young players and his understanding of them is clearly one of his strengths. Getting them to that level where defeat or a poor performance is simply unacceptable is a different mindset and takes some time. An 18 year old may be physically ready, but maybe not mentally on the right level and of course others will mature at different times. I doubt there's really much difference between the levels at Norwich and Newcastle to be honest; but the mentality at a top 6 club compared to them must be on a different scale.

Maybe Gareth Southgate would have something to add, having instructed young players to take the penalties against Italy, when he had a number of more senior players available? I wonder if he still thinks that was a good idea?

Hilarious. Look at the list of senior players who have missed vital penalties for England in shoot outs in the past.

Chris Waddle, Stuart Pearce, David Batty, Paul Ince, Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerard, Frank Lampard etc, etc. 

A little closer to home you might remember senior player Kenny McLean missing the first penalty in the shoot out at Spurs before young players Todd Cantwell and Adam Idah smashed theirs into the top corner. 

 

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

45 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

There's also the difference between what is said to the media / public at large, and what goes on behind closed doors. Don't forget, Farke was more than happy to publicly have a very quiet word with Omobamidele over some aspects of his game in one of his earliest appearances. Might even have been the Preston one.

Huddersfield, I believe. I think it was a clever 'keep your feet on the ground, there's a lot more for you to learn before you're established' publicity stunt by Farke, because a comfortable 7-0 win on your second appearance may well lead to complacency for a youngster.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Webber and Farke knew that finances meant they went into a fight “without a gun” and so it makes perfect sense not to heap unrealistic expectations on young shoulders. I applaud how they handled this - whilst I might question the frugality that caused it,  though to be fair the bounce back does vindicate the small spend last time. This season? Not so much as if we fail to kick on you have to start questioning the ultimate goals and ambition 

[sgncfc 1,227]

1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Hilarious. Look at the list of senior players who have missed vital penalties for England in shoot outs in the past.

Chris Waddle, Stuart Pearce, David Batty, Paul Ince, Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerard, Frank Lampard etc, etc. 

A little closer to home you might remember senior player Kenny McLean missing the first penalty in the shoot out at Spurs before young players Todd Cantwell and Adam Idah smashed theirs into the top corner. 

 

 

It's really not that hilarious, but as you're not bright enough to see my point, let me explain. Southgate instructed them - he clearly thought they were mentally strong enough in the moment and he chose them specifically. As it happens, he was wrong and he took responsibility. In all those previous examples you give the players volunteered and took individual responsibility. 

Would he do that again was my question. Is that good management, trying to accept the pressure, etc when it doesn't get you the result? It wouldn't be an acceptable outcome at a Man City or a Liverpool, which is what Lewis is saying.

The discussion point on this thread is mental strength rather than seniority - clearly some "senior" players may not be as mentally prepared as less experienced ones.