Gay footballers...

[horsefly 4,297]

3 minutes ago, Captain Holt said:

Because I was looking for a thoughtful discussion on something that is long overdue addressing in football. Every bloody thread on here turns into the same nonsense by the same people. It's the reason I came off twitter and its now ruining this place too. Have a great day shouting between yourselves.

So do feel free to show me where I and others have not attempted to engage in a "thoughtful discussion" about the issues. Just which bits are the "same nonsense"? Where is your "thoughful" contribution? The truth is you came here to sound off your bigotry, or are you claiming " I come on here to read about football and the topics surrounding it, not your absolutely pointless s h itty echo chamber opinions." constitutes a "thoughtful" contribution?

[Badger 2,405]

9 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I hate to align myself with the likes of Dean Coneys boots, but do you really think there is anything controversial or incorrect in saying that the proportion of gay men in ballet, acting and the arts is higher than society in general?

Yes, I think that it might be - I don't know what evidence there is to support this? I am not aware of any.

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Plenty of evidence. Professional dance is reckoned to be 60% gay men. Here is an article to read 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dancemagazine.com/amp/gay_men__dance-2306861099

I read the article, the fact that you think it it supports your assertion below is illustrative of your inability to comprehend the requirements of evidence - it admits to be "anecdotal" and it is a tiny ,non randomized sample  that covers only a tiny proportion of the groups you talk about.

I did a sample of my own and 100% of the people I sampled thought that you don't have a clue about what you are talking. The sample wasn't random or very big, but it is still better evidence than you have provided, because at least it covered the entire population being discussed. (It is still very poor evidence - but better than yours.)

The fact that you have obviously google searched this and it is the best that you can come up with speaks volumes: I think that it is pretty clear evidence that you don't really know what you are talking about.

9 hours ago, Badger said:

Meanwhile gays are over represented in acting, the arts and ballet.

 

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, Captain Holt said:

Christ alive, some people on this forum need to get over themselves. I come on here to read about football and the topics surrounding it, not your absolutely pointless s h itty echo chamber opinions.

So the fact that even today footballers do not seem to be willing to "come out" is not a topic related to football?

You don't think that it might be a cultural issue, which at its worst sees the national team being booed by its own, the same fans booing the national anthems of other countries and the disgraceful scenes that we saw at Wembley recently?

If you are not interested in football in the wider community and just want to discuss tactics or whether a player is good or not, I suggest you avoid threads like these - it is not difficult, it is pretty clear what the thread was about.

[Captain Holt 522]

21 minutes ago, Badger said:

So the fact that even today footballers do not seem to be willing to "come out" is not a topic related to football?

You don't think that it might be a cultural issue, which at its worst sees the national team being booed by its own, the same fans booing the national anthems of other countries and the disgraceful scenes that we saw at Wembley recently?

If you are not interested in football in the wider community and just want to discuss tactics or whether a player is good or not, I suggest you avoid threads like these - it is not difficult, it is pretty clear what the thread was about.

See my earlier post, badger boy. I'm very interested in it, I'm not interested in the people who think it's all about them.

[canarydan23 4,060]

27 minutes ago, Badger said:

Yes, I think that it might be - I don't know what evidence there is to support this? I am not aware of any.

Really? You don't think that there is a higher proportion of gay people in ballet, dancing and the arts than society in general? Really? I mean, really?

@horsefly apologies, my interpretation of your post was that because Marcus Rashford was an unbelievably talented footballer and top drawer human then you could dismiss the available evidence that suggests, generally, children do better growing up in two-parent families. Forgetting any dated, moral arguments, it's the logistics of it for me. I'd be willing to wager than only children in two-parent families generally have better life outcomes than larger families. My kids miss out on opportunities because there are too many of them so we don't have the transportation abilities or money to give them all the opportunities they and we would like them to have. If we'd have stuck at one, then they could have tried out a lot more activities and sports that could have led to who knows what. Also, I think seeing the term "over-represented" as pejorative comes from you, rather than DCB. You could only really find offence in that if you actively look for it, and if you actively look for it, you can find it anywhere.

@Dean Coneys boots no offence, but based on your comments in other threads I don't think we're on the same page on many things and in my humble and irrelevant opinion, you come across as a bit of a wally at times. That's where the "likes of you" comment came from.

@chicken there is no relevance in stating that there are a higher proportion of gay people in arts, ballet and dancing and nor is it an example of stereotyping. It would be stereotyping, and stupid, to say all male dancers are gay. But it's just a fact that for whatever reason, some professions have a higher proportion of homosexuals than others and the arts and dancing are examples of those professions, as is air stewarding. What's up with saying that? Facts matter.

 

[Captain Holt 522]

50 minutes ago, horsefly said:

So do feel free to show me where I and others have not attempted to engage in a "thoughtful discussion" about the issues. Just which bits are the "same nonsense"? Where is your "thoughful" contribution? The truth is you came here to sound off your bigotry, or are you claiming " I come on here to read about football and the topics surrounding it, not your absolutely pointless s h itty echo chamber opinions." constitutes a "thoughtful" contribution?

To sound off my bigotry? Jesus christ, talk about a perfect snapshot of the modern world. Because I didn't agree with you instantly I'm a bigot who hates gays?

It couldn't be further from the truth, I'm almost pathetically of the left and campaigned for Labour in the last 2 GEs.

I'm not complaining about the thread, I'm complaining about the 'Mighty I's' within. Have a good day, still. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

And @Captain Holt, you need to learn what an echo chamber is. This thread features several people robustly arguing against one another. That's pretty close to the opposite of an echo chamber.

[horsefly 4,297]

1 hour ago, Captain Holt said:

To sound off my bigotry? Jesus christ, talk about a perfect snapshot of the modern world. Because I didn't agree with you instantly I'm a bigot who hates gays?

It couldn't be further from the truth, I'm almost pathetically of the left and campaigned for Labour in the last 2 GEs.

I'm not complaining about the thread, I'm complaining about the 'Mighty I's' within. Have a good day, still. 

I don't have a clue what you think about the issue because the only post you have made launched immediately into an abusive tirade. Screaming that, "I come on here to read about football and the topics surrounding it, not your absolutely pointless s h itty echo chamber opinions." and not making any attempt to address others' views is pretty much a prima facie example of bigotry I would have thought.  I can see why Labour failed if that's the way you campaigned on the doorstep.

Perhaps you should avoid threads that might involve people who happen to have the audacity to disagree with whatever opinion it is you happen to hold.

Edited July 23, 2021 by horsefly

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

2 hours ago, Badger said:

Yes, I think that it might be - I don't know what evidence there is to support this? I am not aware of any.

Really? You don't think that there is a higher proportion of gay people in ballet, dancing and the arts than society in general? Really? I mean, really?

I really, I mean really, don't have any evidence to support this - do you?

[canarydan23 4,060]

16 minutes ago, Badger said:

I really, I mean really, don't have any evidence to support this - do you?

Personally I only know two male dancers. They're both gay. If you ask me to name ballet dancers off the top of my head I could only offer you three, Frederick Ashton, Rudolf Nureyev and Wayne Sleep. All gay.

Believe it or not, I've never done any research on it in the same way that I haven't done any research into whether bears sh*t in the woods. However, after a quick Googling yes, there is evidence to support this. An American study of 136 male dancers reported that said dancers estimated half of all their male colleagues in the profession were gay. Dance Magazine states that "gay men do tend to be drawn to dance". The arts is a bit harder to define given its scope, but in dance there is absolutely no way it is controversial to state that the amount of homosexuals as a proportion is higher, significantly so, than the rest of society.

Are you just feeling particularly argumentative today? It's a bizarre thing to contest.

Edited July 23, 2021 by canarydan23

[Badger 2,405]

4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Are you just feeling particularly argumentative today? It's a bizarre thing to contest.

Not really - I just don't think that there is any evidence to support what you have said. Even the evidence you have provided is anecdotal on a very small sample and covers just dancers which a very small part of the total arts community.

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

That just tells me that even if the figures are true, dance and performing arts are an environment that is far more tolerant of homosexuals than many others. Such as sports.

[Haus 259]

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

That just tells me that even if the figures are true, dance and performing arts are an environment that is far more tolerant of homosexuals than many others. Such as sports.

More welcoming and less of a hostile environment definitely. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

16 minutes ago, Badger said:

Not really - I just don't think that there is any evidence to support what you have said. Even the evidence you have provided is anecdotal on a very small sample and covers just dancers which a very small part of the total arts community.

I'm really struggling to get my head around this being a genuine discussion; I'm not entirely convinced that you're not just trolling here.

Anyway, there is more evidence. In 2016 employees of the Arts Council England stated that 12% of their staff were homosexual or bisexual, 68% heterosexual and 20% preferred not to say. In 2019, an ONS study into sexual orientation concluded that 2.2% of the UK population were gay, lesbian or bisexual.

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

That just tells me that even if the figures are true, dance and performing arts are an environment that is far more tolerant of homosexuals than many others. Such as sports.

It tells me that too. I'm sure if football was as tolerant as the performing arts sector then there would be more openly gay footballers. The standard would probably improve as well. You never know, there may have been a future England star who didn't stick with football because of the inherent homophobia who may have gone on to help us win a major trophy; it'd be pretty ironic if the attitudes of the gammon, knuckle-dragging element of England football fans has denied us the success they are desperate for.

That said, with the ONS figure of 2.2% of the population being gay, this is an average across the country so some sectors and fields will be significantly lower than 2.2% and some (despite some people's flat out refusal to accept it) will be significantly higher. It's a fact, seemingly an uncomfortable one for some of you, that certain fields will attract gay men and others won't.  Performative arts and dance is clearly (and it is clear) one sector where the number of gay people is disproportionately high compared to the national average. On the flip side, I suspect that men's football is disproportionately low. For pathetic and inexcusable reasons, football repels gay people. There are undoubtedly, and have been in the past, gay footballers who feel/felt unable to come out, but I very much doubt that there have been 100s and 100s. Not that it makes it any better. If one gay footballer feels they have to suppress who they are due to bigoted idiots then it's too many. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by canarydan23

[Badger 2,405]

16 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm really struggling to get my head around this being a genuine discussion; I'm not entirely convinced that you're not just trolling here.

Anyway, there is more evidence. In 2016 employees of the Arts Council England stated that 12% of their staff were homosexual or bisexual, 68% heterosexual and 20% preferred not to say. In 2019, an ONS study into sexual orientation concluded that 2.2% of the UK population were gay, lesbian or bisexual.

This is the best evidence provided so far. It is however, far from conclusive. Kinsey reported numbers similar to the Arts Coucil 80 years ago, although his work is deeply flawed.

David Speihelhalter, who is probably the best known statistician in the country published a book called "Sex by numbers." Without going into the arguments too deeply, he separates identity from behaviour and concludes,

"Identity aside, ten per cent of the population, it seems, could well be involved in same sex behaviour after all."

I think that culture is the nub of the argument and where we started really: I would contend that someone working in the arts is more comfortable acknowledging their homosexuality/ bisexuality etc than a footballer. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/10-per-cent-population-gay-alfred-kinsey-statistics

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

I think that culture is the nub of the argument and where we started really: I would contend that someone working in the arts is more comfortable acknowledging their homosexuality/ bisexuality etc than a footballer. 

Completely agree. And because of that, I think homosexual people are more likely to be attracted to those worlds and repelled from others. And let's be honest, talented sports people are generally athletic and not just good at one thing. Someone who is a technically gifted footballer is likely to be good at other athletic pursuits that they put their mind too. So if you're a gay teenager talented at football and dance, are you likely to head down the field where you are welcomed and accepted, or mocked and bullied?

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

29 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

That said, with the ONS figure of 2.2% of the population being gay, this is an average across the country so some sectors and fields will be significantly lower than 2.2% and some (despite some people's flat out refusal to accept it) will be significantly higher. It's a fact, seemingly an uncomfortable one for some of you, that certain fields will attract gay men and others won't.  Performative arts and dance is clearly (and it is clear) one sector where the number of gay people is disproportionately high compared to the national average. On the flip side, I suspect that men's football is disproportionately low. For pathetic and inexcusable reasons, football repels gay people. There are undoubtedly, and have been in the past, gay footballers who feel/felt unable to come out, but I very much doubt that there have been 100s and 100s. Not that it makes it any better. If one gay footballer feels they have to suppress who they are due to bigoted idiots then it's too many. 

Highlighted the key bit in bold and fully agree there. For me, this leads to two following questions - why was such stigma enabled and allowed to run rampant in the first place, and why does it endure despite old messages being comprehensively debunked?

Misplaced religious evangelism would be my guess as a key factor (glorious irony, the King James behind the King James Bible was long suspected to be involved in homosexual acts).

[Captain Holt 522]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I can see why Labour failed if that's the way you campaigned on the doorstep.

I thought the bumming went down particularly well actually. 

[Badger 2,405]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

So if you're a gay teenager talented at football and dance, are you likely to head down the field where you are welcomed and accepted, or mocked and bullied?

Possibly, I don't know. I suspect that there are far more openings to a talented athlete in football than in Dance - look at scouting departments etc of football teams + the rewards of being a footballer, far outweigh those of being a dancer. Therefore,  I suspect that it more likely that a gay footballer will hide his* sexuality than a gay dancer. 

I'm sorry, I still don't agree with DCB's allegation that: I think it is the culture that allows people to be more open and honest.

16 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Meanwhile gays are over represented in acting, the arts and ballet.

*I deliberately gendered this, as I suspect that the issue might be different in women's football.

[Mr Angry 1,554]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm really struggling to get my head around this being a genuine discussion; I'm not entirely convinced that you're not just trolling here.

Anyway, there is more evidence. In 2016 employees of the Arts Council England stated that 12% of their staff were homosexual or bisexual, 68% heterosexual and 20% preferred not to say. In 2019, an ONS study into sexual orientation concluded that 2.2% of the UK population were gay, lesbian or bisexual.

It tells me that too. I'm sure if football was as tolerant as the performing arts sector then there would be more openly gay footballers. The standard would probably improve as well. You never know, there may have been a future England star who didn't stick with football because of the inherent homophobia who may have gone on to help us win a major trophy; it'd be pretty ironic if the attitudes of the gammon, knuckle-dragging element of England football fans has denied us the success they are desperate for.

That said, with the ONS figure of 2.2% of the population being gay, this is an average across the country so some sectors and fields will be significantly lower than 2.2% and some (despite some people's flat out refusal to accept it) will be significantly higher. It's a fact, seemingly an uncomfortable one for some of you, that certain fields will attract gay men and others won't.  Performative arts and dance is clearly (and it is clear) one sector where the number of gay people is disproportionately high compared to the national average. On the flip side, I suspect that men's football is disproportionately low. For pathetic and inexcusable reasons, football repels gay people. There are undoubtedly, and have been in the past, gay footballers who feel/felt unable to come out, but I very much doubt that there have been 100s and 100s. Not that it makes it any better. If one gay footballer feels they have to suppress who they are due to bigoted idiots then it's too many. 

I looked at those ONS figures too-93.7% identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as gay or lesbian, 1.1 % as bisexual, 0.7% as Other and 3.0% either did not know or refused.to answer. For males, the figure for gay or lesbian was 2.1% and bisexual was 0.8%. (754,000 in total). There is a vast difference in the distribution by age. Of those males who identified as LGB, 52% were aged between 16 and 35. This is 392,080. I'm not exactly sure how this information was collected, but it seems to be from the UK as a whole rather than an extrapolation from a smaller survey.

I would be absolutely amazed if none of the 392,080 males who identified as LGB was not a professional footballer. I suspect that the sexual orientation figures for Western cultures are similar to those for the UK so I think that the probability that there are no gay or bisexual footballers in the UK is infinitesimal.

So why have none of them come out? There was a similar debate on this messageboard in 2018 in which @Bethnal Yellow and Green suggested that there were plenty of LGBT players but they hadn't come out because they wanted to focus on their footballing careers and although they probably weren't afraid of receiving abuse, they didn't want the attention that being the first player to come out would bring.

With the recent stance being taken by players about racism I wonder whether a player will decide to come out.

[chicken 2,624]

4 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

@chicken there is no relevance in stating that there are a higher proportion of gay people in arts, ballet and dancing and nor is it an example of stereotyping. It would be stereotyping, and stupid, to say all male dancers are gay. But it's just a fact that for whatever reason, some professions have a higher proportion of homosexuals than others and the arts and dancing are examples of those professions, as is air stewarding. What's up with saying that? Facts matter.

It's not a fact though is it? So far we have a very small sample 1997 "survey" - are we aware of where the survey is from yet? The impression I got when trying to find out, was the US. So totally irrelevant to a situation in the UK. I really do wish people stopped using the word "fact" when it is anything but. 

We also don't even have an accurate figure of how many people are gay in terms of % of the population. Even a census will be somewhat inaccurate for varying reasons such as being able to decline to state ones sexuality. Not to mention that if a survey drawn from a census states that a % of the population is gay, it will be including the child population which I believe you don't have to complete that question for. Baring in mind that 12.7m of the 67m UK population are children/under 16 (Office of National Statistics).

So when you see population are they including children in that number or not? Important. They make up just under 20% 1/5 of the population.

Another statistic I would be intrigued to see would be those who do not consider themselves as gay but went through conversion therapy/some type of therapy to change their orientation or felt they have no choice to express themselves as straight or bi due to pressure from others.

References:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/annualmidyearpopulationestimates/mid2019estimates

[canarydan23 4,060]

Fine, if you want to believe that there isn't a higher than average proportion of gay men in performative arts and dancing, or air stewarding, that society as a whole then knock yourself out. If it doesn't bother you that it's pretty much on a par with flat earth belief in terms of its connection to reality then great!

Edited July 23, 2021 by canarydan23

[Badger 2,405]

2 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

I looked at those ONS figures too

There are lots of other surveys that put it higher than this. Speigelhalter draws a distinction between identification between identity and activity.

[Mr Angry 1,554]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

There are lots of other surveys that put it higher than this. Speigelhalter draws a distinction between identification between identity and activity.

Sorry Badger, I’m not sure what that means-is it that some men identify as LGB but don’t act on their feelings?

[Badger 2,405]

1 minute ago, Mr Angry said:

Sorry Badger, I’m not sure what that means-is it that some men identify as LGB but don’t act on their feelings?

No - research suggests more people engage in same-sex activity than identify as gay or bisexual. In other words, they have same-sex relations but still identify as heterosexual. (Of curse this leads to the whole area of identity and sexuality/ gender which causes heated argument.)

[Mr Angry 1,554]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

No - research suggests more people engage in same-sex activity than identify as gay or bisexual. In other words, they have same-sex relations but still identify as heterosexual. (Of curse this leads to the whole area of identity and sexuality/ gender which causes heated argument.)

Oh right-is that because they are in denial, or because they don’t consider certain actions to constitute proper sex, or because they don’t answer truthfully for fear of being found out?

[Too Bad 6]

Far more than 2.2% of footballers are homosexual. That is, if you include the women. 

[Midlands Yellow 3,974]

I’m glad this thread is still going strong.

[horsefly 4,297]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I’m glad this thread is still going strong.

Perhaps you could have a word with Captain Holt.