2 jabs to attend matches?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

32 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I am not a fan of forcing people to take vaccines and I think that some genuine people unable to take vaccines (due to health reasons) could find themselves excluded or a second class citizen all due to circumstances beyond their control. On the other side if not enough people take up the vaccines then society as a whole doesn't achieve the immunity everyone craves, and the virus finds it easier to mutant meaning it can render those vaccines uneffective. Difficult one....

Some people decide not to have a vaccine for sensible reasons.

I know a 35 year old woman who fears the impact on her fertility, its a valid concern - she hasn't got much of a window left, her GP thought she was wise, so she'll probably value his opinion over that of all these pseudo-scientists on internet forums. 

[Foxy2600 297]

2 minutes ago, AJ said:

This is exactly it. The vaccination doesn't stop the virus whatsoever, just protects you from getting it so badly. In theory it wouldn't make a difference if you were shut in a room full of vaccinated people, or unvaccinated people. In theory, your risk of catching it would be virtually the same.

Not so. Being vaccinated reduces how ill you get yes but in turn drastically reduces the virus ability to make virus factories in your throat and therefore reduces the viral load expelled into the surrounding area.

We'd have taken this last year - it's the new normal we all craved. Suck it up.

[Ray 111]

3 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

We'd have taken this last year - it's the new normal we all craved. Suck it up.

Is that the Royal We Foxy, because I certainly wouldn't.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

14 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

I’m vaccinated but I’m getting very uneasy about all this. Can you really see all this banning and restrictions ending well? Are walls and barriers the bedrock of a well functioning society?

So what about dress codes? For years, many clubs, nightclubs etc said you can't come in if you are wearing jeans. And everyone knew that and dressed accordingly.

I have never been a supporter of compulsion per se and if someone has a genuine reason for not wanting to be vaccinated then fine. But accept that that rejection may put you offside with the rest of the population.

I called the owner of a Golf Club a hypocrite, not nastily but in discussion. He is 50 but will not have the jab. Fine. But then he tells us we have to follow the protocols. I accept that there was a legal reason for some, but not all. You weren't allowed to touch the flag in case of contamination. But you could all put your hands in the cup, which is plastic below ground level, to take your ball out.

I suppose we all have a measure of hypocrisy in our attitude to the pandemic but assume we are doing our best.

[Foxy2600 297]

1 minute ago, Ray said:

Is that the Royal We Foxy, because I certainly wouldn't.

That is your prerogative mate. Free country. The attitude of not accepting anything other than the 'old normal' will be the Western World's undoing.

The Chinese knew what they were doing when they unleashed this.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

Not so. Being vaccinated reduces how ill you get yes but in turn drastically reduces the virus ability to make virus factories in your throat and therefore reduces the viral load expelled into the surrounding area.

We'd have taken this last year - it's the new normal we all craved. Suck it up.

Spanish Flu is supposed to have emanated from a climate change prior to 1918. We are undoubtedly in climate change (I'm not here to discuss whether its man made or not) and if the suspicions about 1918 are correct, then we have the perfect climate for even more viruses to emerge.

You may be right about the new normal.

[Ray 111]

2 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

That is your prerogative mate. Free country. The attitude of not accepting anything other than the 'old normal' will be the Western World's undoing.

The Chinese knew what they were doing when they unleashed this.

Free country, I'm not so sure anymore Foxy, and I guess that is the crux of this discussion.

[OTBC06 39]

19 minutes ago, Well b back said:

This is a strange one and I can see the for’s and against’s. 
Here’s one for you though, flu causes a lot of deaths each year, in the average year nowhere near as many as COVID, but every few years far more. In the past not particularly high numbers of people had the flu jab, should they have in the past, or in the future be banned from FCR.

Past history has shown that making vaccines compulsory, tends to drive those against further away. We should be doing everything we can to ‘ encourage ‘ people to take the vaccine. Our youngest son is 17 he would love to take the vaccine, but in this country unlike the rest of the world he is not allowed it.

But when you look at amount of deaths by Flu the past year the number has dropped dramatically, because they were being reported as Covid deaths. You get run over and die, they test you for covid, the test is positive, your reported as a covid death. 

[Foxy2600 297]

1 minute ago, Ray said:

Free country, I'm not so sure anymore Foxy, and I guess that is the crux of this discussion.

But back 'On Topic' - I'm double jabbed, carry the NHS App on my phone, happy to wear a mask and use hand wash. I would be allowed into CR. The new normal is exactly that. If I don't want to be jabbed etc, its my free God given right to watch it on TV.

[Well b back 3,190]

2 minutes ago, OTBC06 said:

But when you look at amount of deaths by Flu the past year the number has dropped dramatically, because they were being reported as Covid deaths. You get run over and die, they test you for covid, the test is positive, your reported as a covid death. 

Your posts were good and informative until then with good arguments, but flu is not COVID. There were lots of reasons why there was no flu season last year, and lots of reasons why flu this year ‘ could just possibly ‘ be a major problem. People are not tested by the way if they are dead.

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

I've been waiting for the sniffer dog approach to detection which was apparently so foolproof to be used OR is that just another myth/ contradiction in the time of Covid 19?

Foxy2600 brought some sound medical sense to what seems like a randomly dished out piece of legislation which contradicts that which is allowed in equally dangerous situations.

This morning's am programme (Sky news) presented yet another expert who said that nasal testing was soon to be available.

Perhaps quick and accurate testing in such a way such as this might solve it all.

Broadly speaking our useless government has embarked upon the right course by now relying upon fatalities and hospitalisations as the main indicators of social behaviour. I just wish that the infection rate was lower. From day one they have never managed to shut all doors.

Once we have gotten over the Wembley, Wimbledon etc. laxities then the rate will hopefully decline.

Sars 1. ended because, although very fatal (10%,) it was not easily spread. Covid 19 (Sars 2, esp. delta,) seems to have overcome that, whilst unable to kill us off that easily.

This could disappear as easily as it came. Could being the operative word as it is worldwide though. It is therefore good to encourage vaccination, whilst not discriminating against those unable to take the jab for medical reasons.

The anti-vaxxers should recall how small-pox was all but eliminated. To say nothing of the unpleasantness of measles, shingles and a few other virusses of note.

[Ray 111]

4 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

But back 'On Topic' - I'm double jabbed, carry the NHS App on my phone, happy to wear a mask and use hand wash. I would be allowed into CR. The new normal is exactly that. If I don't want to be jabbed etc, its my free God given right to watch it on TV.

Blimey Foxy, you've introduced religion now🤣 Therefore is it a God given right to stop me roaming the planet unless I've injected a foreign substance into my arm, twice.

[OTBC06 39]

12 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

That is your prerogative mate. Free country. The attitude of not accepting anything other than the 'old normal' will be the Western World's undoing.

The Chinese knew what they were doing when they unleashed this.

Ok so as this has cropped up today and is topical 

Would you accept, as the new normal, that fancying children is just a sexual preference? As I have seen the woke mob flying banners at protests, saying just this. That to me, is not normal, and never should be. But when the Elite start pushing this agenda, well to be honest they already have, will you accept it as its moving forward with the times. 

Dress codes etc are non comparable, they are not interfering with your body. maybe what we should be doing, rather than arguing with each other about who is the biggest risk or idiot or whatever. maybe we should be fighting against the people who make this sh1t in labs and let them loose on us. They are the people we should be against, the controlling few. Follow the money, who is getting stinking rich off this and who isn't. I know it isn't Brenda who opened up a little cafe 2 years ago selling coffee and cakes. No, she had to shut down whilst Starbucks stayed open and steamrolled her small business.

[OTBC06 39]

5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Your posts were good and informative until then with good arguments, but flu is not COVID. There were lots of reasons why there was no flu season last year, and lots of reasons why flu this year ‘ could just possibly ‘ be a major problem. People are not tested by the way if they are dead.

Well I've seen interviews with Coroners, the ones they won't put on TV and have their youtube channels cancelled (modern day book burning) who say this.

Always listen to the people they try to silence. They normally have something worth while to say.

 

[Foxy2600 297]

6 minutes ago, Ray said:

Blimey Foxy, you've introduced religion now🤣 Therefore is it a God given right to stop me roaming the planet unless I've injected a foreign substance into my arm, twice.

Speaking rationally, Ray, please roam the planet all you wish. Just don't share the same space as me at certain times of the day unless you inject yourself with magnetic trace elements and locator nano-chips.

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

3 minutes ago, Ray said:

Blimey Foxy, you've introduced religion now🤣 Therefore is it a God given right to stop me roaming the planet unless I've injected a foreign substance into my arm, twice.

What is all this about "foreign substance," that's only true if you include everything you consume? Alcohol is more of a foreign substance for a start. Do you not drink?

What is the relevance of where it is administered. "Into the arm" sounds emotive, but it is no different from into the mouth.

Perhaps you should read this for information:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html

[OTBC06 39]

10 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Your posts were good and informative until then with good arguments, but flu is not COVID. There were lots of reasons why there was no flu season last year, and lots of reasons why flu this year ‘ could just possibly ‘ be a major problem. People are not tested by the way if they are dead.

Well I've seen interviews with Coroners, the ones they won't put on TV and have their youtube channels cancelled (modern day book burning) who say this.

Always listen to the people they try to silence. They normally have something worth while to say. I will always make up my own mind after doing my own research.

 

[OTBC06 39]

5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Your posts were good and informative until then with good arguments, but flu is not COVID. There were lots of reasons why there was no flu season last year, and lots of reasons why flu this year ‘ could just possibly ‘ be a major problem. People are not tested by the way if they are dead.

Well I've seen interviews with Coroners, the ones they won't put on TV and have their youtube channels cancelled (modern day book burning) who say this.

Always listen to the people they try to silence. They normally have something worth while to say.

 

[Ray 111]

15 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

What is all this about "foreign substance," that's only true if you include everything you consume? Alcohol is more of a foreign substance for a start. Do you not drink?

What is the relevance of where it is administered. "Into the arm" sounds emotive, but it is no different from into the mouth.

Perhaps you should read this for information:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html

Broadstairs, alcohol is a naturally occurring substance and I do my best to eat organic  however I get your point, 

[Ray 111]

18 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

Speaking rationally, Ray, please roam the planet all you wish. Just don't share the same space as me at certain times of the day unless you inject yourself with magnetic trace elements and locator nano-chips.

I may have already make the choice to be injected with said substances, I may not have. Only my health professional and I will ever know and long should it stay that way imo👍

[The Real Buh 3,423]

56 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

So what about dress codes? For years, many clubs, nightclubs etc said you can't come in if you are wearing jeans. And everyone knew that and dressed accordingly.

I have never been a supporter of compulsion per se and if someone has a genuine reason for not wanting to be vaccinated then fine. But accept that that rejection may put you offside with the rest of the population.

I called the owner of a Golf Club a hypocrite, not nastily but in discussion. He is 50 but will not have the jab. Fine. But then he tells us we have to follow the protocols. I accept that there was a legal reason for some, but not all. You weren't allowed to touch the flag in case of contamination. But you could all put your hands in the cup, which is plastic below ground level, to take your ball out.

I suppose we all have a measure of hypocrisy in our attitude to the pandemic but assume we are doing our best.

I’m more worried about what this will do to western civilisation in 5/10 years than the immediate “can I go to a nightclub” scenario.

We’ve had every western government have a taste of totalitarianism, a good percentage of those are going to abuse that power in one way or another. We’ve had the biggest companies that have every existed inflate to levels that they are able to act with total impunity and monopolise markets and we have a surging superpower rising that is acting with impunity and we’ve given them the keys to the kingdom years ago because we like iPhones so much. Able to hack, influence or threaten us in any way they like and our government and all western governments our terrified of them

f@£k brexit, that wasn’t and isn’t anything compared to what we are about to enter into. A very, very strange time with the passing of the torch from america to China as the dominant world superpower and the rise of some very, very powerful technology that will change everything about what it means to be human let alone “British” or “western” or whatever.
 

This might be the civilisation membrane they talk about when people discuss the Fermi paradox

[The Real Buh 3,423]

It’s people like this that worry me. With covid they are a “somebody” without it… back to the scrapheap they go.

It definitely suits some people to have a locked down, over-authoritative state of affairs and some will fight to protect it.

there is no “going back to normal” and I don’t think there ever was. Now we just pick up the pieces and try to do a good job. Maybe it’ll be more fair, more tolerant. Maybe it’ll be an ultra-technological version of the horrors of authoritarian left and right wing regimes of the 20th century

watch this space basically

[Foxy2600 297]

11 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

It’s people like this that worry me. With covid they are a “somebody” without it… back to the scrapheap they go.

It definitely suits some people to have a locked down, over-authoritative state of affairs and some will fight to protect it.

there is no “going back to normal” and I don’t think there ever was. Now we just pick up the pieces and try to do a good job. Maybe it’ll be more fair, more tolerant. Maybe it’ll be an ultra-technological version of the horrors of authoritarian left and right wing regimes of the 20th century

watch this space basically

Buh, he's been removed for 3 weeks to make way for the BBC coverage of the Olympics. So, you can see where the BBC's priorities lie.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

2 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

Buh, he's been removed for 3 weeks to make way for the BBC coverage of the Olympics. So, you can see where the BBC's priorities lie.

He’ll be back lol and he’s a symbol of the kind of “economy” That’s built up around covid. Without covid, this guys a nobody, same with that Scottish woman. Covid is some people’s “moment in the sun” and they will fight to protect it

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

18 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

It’s people like this that worry me. With covid they are a “somebody” without it… back to the scrapheap they go.

It definitely suits some people to have a locked down, over-authoritative state of affairs and some will fight to protect it.

there is no “going back to normal” and I don’t think there ever was. Now we just pick up the pieces and try to do a good job. Maybe it’ll be more fair, more tolerant. Maybe it’ll be an ultra-technological version of the horrors of authoritarian left and right wing regimes of the 20th century

watch this space basically

I'm not sure these people are nobodies. Some have a technical knowledge whereas others just have an opinion.

Since Diana, I'm not just blaming her totally but it was her era that began it, people have become important for no other reason than people have made them important by embracing them. A minor, as she was at the time, and an aristocratic nobody, becomes the front cover of every magazine and first news item.

Jade Goody becomes a celebrity with an earner because she's an ugly no-mark who shouts at people. And the list goes on.

In terms of social mobility as it was once called, I have no idea what is next or what effect it will have. Andy Warhol was certainly correct about the 15 minutes.

I am convinced our country has never been so divided whether politically or geographically. How could Corbyn be so popular one minute and blown away the next? How can a Government get most things so completely wrong and yet become more popular in the polls?

The lifespan of anything seems to be short at the moment. And when this panic dies down, as you say, we will probably never hear of these people again.

[CirclePoint 200]

1 hour ago, Foxy2600 said:

But back 'On Topic' - I'm double jabbed, carry the NHS App on my phone, happy to wear a mask and use hand wash. I would be allowed into CR. The new normal is exactly that. If I don't want to be jabbed etc, its my free God given right to watch it on TV.

This.

The same with airport security? Anyone remember not having to go through all of the security?

The same for children needing proof of vaccination for a whole number of viruses before they go to school.

Anyone ask any questions when they got their TB shot in school?

 

It truly fascinates me that there are so many people choosing to not get vaccinated. Such a simple thing to do, yet the social divide is so strong.

If I were working on my PhD in behavioral psychology……I’d have my topic and a good body of people to study.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

It's only because of the vaccinations and people getting vaccinated that we're having this conversation at all. Seems like far too many people are happy to let others take the risks for them and expect the same benefits. Personally I don't expect to be put at risk because others can't be arsed or don't feel the need to get jabbed. Different though if you have a valid medical reason not to be vaccinated.

We were so close to nailing this, but an incompetent government and civil liberties **** is threatening to derail everything.

 

 

[Matt Juler 148]

Forty percent of people currently in hospital with COVID related illness have been fully double jabbed.  This isn't knocking the vaccine, the numbers in hospital and dying would be far, far higher without it, but it's not the wonder than many people seem to think it is. 

I would feel more comfortable knowing the person next to me hadn't had the vaccine, but had performed a negative LTF in the 24 hours before the game, than someone coughing away but thinking it's perfectly fine to attend since they were fully vaccinated.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

16 minutes ago, Matt Juler said:

Forty percent of people currently in hospital with COVID related illness have been fully double jabbed.  This isn't knocking the vaccine, the numbers in hospital and dying would be far, far higher without it, but it's not the wonder than many people seem to think it is. 

I would feel more comfortable knowing the person next to me hadn't had the vaccine, but had performed a negative LTF in the 24 hours before the game, than someone coughing away but thinking it's perfectly fine to attend since they were fully vaccinated.

There is a long piece by an NHS consultant in The Guardian today, which is worth reading in its entirety, but this bit is worth quoting, to provide context:

Many of our admissions have not been vaccinated. Some want to achieve “natural immunity”; it is unclear whether they realise that the only way to do this is to get the disease instead. Another wants “to see some real data”, as if all the information assessed by the regulatory authorities before approval, and the clear real-world data about the reduction in cases, is somehow fabricated. Someone’s friend got some side-effects from the vaccine so she didn’t have it; guess which one of them ended up in hospital. Most of these people have the decency to look sheepish, or to describe themselves as “one of those idiots”.

Conversely, well over half of our Covid admissions have been vaccinated. These patients are a mix of ages, and are less unwell than they used to be, for the most part; very few need admission to intensive care after vaccination. The vaccination clearly works, but is not 100% effective in all people.

[Naturalcynic 629]

3 hours ago, OTBC06 said:

No one is happy to catch the virus, (it wiped me out for 3 weeks), but if I (unknowingly) have it, and stand next to and sneeze, or cough or even just breath, I may pass it to you. Does it matter if I have been jabbed or not, no, it doesn't. You will still get it, at whatever level the vaccine will allow. The vaccine doesn't stop me spreading it or reduce the level of which is spread. Which I think is the reason people don't have it. They don't know what they are putting in their body, there is no come back to the manufacturers, and Pfizer have form in Kenya and India with horrendous consequences on the young people given other vaccines there (not for Covid). 

 

There’s ample evidence from a number of studies (and no, I’m not going to spend ages finding links to them) which show clearly that the chance of the virus causing disease is significantly reduced if you’ve been double-vaccinated, and that even if you do catch it your chances of being able to transmit it to others is very much lower than if you were unvaccinated.  And of course if you do get Covid despite having been vaccinated it’s extremely likely that it will be much milder with a much reduced likelihood of it hospitalising or killing you.  

 

As JVT said yesterday, if he crammed 20 unvaccinated people in his shed the transmission of infection would almost certainly be very much higher than if they were all vaccinated.  He used this as an analogy for night clubs but the same argument would apply to attending football matches.
 

Yes, it should be up to the individual whether or not they have the vaccination but in terms of public health it’s up to employers and legislators to decide what the consequences might have to be in terms of being able to attend or do certain things.  That may well mean the unvaccinated will no longer be legally allowed to use public transport, travel to other countries or attend football matches.  As they say, choices have consequences.