Think our squad looks weak

[Jim Smith 2,314]

4 weeks out from the start of the season and none of Gibson, Gianoullis, Hanley, Byram and possibly Aarons were fit to play at Kings Lynn. Gibson hasn’t played for several months and still does not appear to be training with the first team. 
 

We remain short at the back and it worries me that we are being slow to address this. If they have genuinely learnt from last time they need to get on with it and show it by strengthening that area. 

[hogesar 9,616]

11 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

4 weeks out from the start of the season and none of Gibson, Gianoullis, Hanley, Byram and possibly Aarons were fit to play at Kings Lynn. Gibson hasn’t played for several months and still does not appear to be training with the first team. 
 

We remain short at the back and it worries me that we are being slow to address this. If they have genuinely learnt from last time they need to get on with it and show it by strengthening that area. 

But this is naive.

"They need to get on with it"

The club have likely been working on it since before the end of last season but thats simply not how transfers work.

This is where the whole thread is completely pointless.

Clubs won't let Good players leave until they have a replacement lined up. The euros only just recently finished and players only just started to come back from holidays.

And let's not pretend NCFC are some unique standout here - has every other club concluded all their transfer business now?

[Canary Jedi 573]

Right now Norwich are like a swan - all looks calm and serene when watching from the riverbank but underneath the water there’s a hell of a lot going on that you don’t see!

Come the Liverpool game, if the doom and gloom scenario above is still the case then fair enough. Until that point I’m expecting players to be available and a couple more signings. Just my uninformed opinion 😀

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

35 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But this is naive.

"They need to get on with it"

The club have likely been working on it since before the end of last season but thats simply not how transfers work.

This is where the whole thread is completely pointless.

Clubs won't let Good players leave until they have a replacement lined up. The euros only just recently finished and players only just started to come back from holidays.

And let's not pretend NCFC are some unique standout here - has every other club concluded all their transfer business now?

Can you imagine the reaction if we'd bought a striker,  two dms, two cbs and a winger  all in the first week of the window  and declared business done? Any money  the same posters would be saying we should be more considered  in our signings. I would love to know what the ideal time frame is and why people think that we are not trying as hard as we can to fulfil targets.  But then, I'm a reasonable man. 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by wcorkcanary

[Coneys Knee 941]

As things stand, as of today, it’s difficult to make a convincing case that we are stronger right now than this time two years ago.

However, it’s still very early on in the transfer window in which activity will have been delayed due to the Euros. 
 

I also think the there is an inclination to over exaggerate the weakness of our squad simply due to the fact we’ve lost Buendia. If we were sitting here now with the exact same transfer business but without losing Buendia I think we’d all be claiming that we would have our strongest premiership squad for decades! 

Its tough but Webber, Farke and team are more than worthy of our trust so that’s what we should do I think.   

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

12 minutes ago, Coneys Knee said:

As things stand, as of today, it’s difficult to make a convincing case that we are stronger right now than this time two years ago.

Really?!? 

I think we're so much stronger than two seasons ago. Line up everyone side by side and I think with the exception of Buendia, I'd sooner pick every player we have now than what we had then.

 

[Coneys Knee 941]

Just now, Terminally Yellow said:

Really?!? 

I think we're so much stronger than two seasons ago. Line up everyone side by side and I think with the exception of Buendia, I'd sooner pick every player we have now than what we had then.

 

Maybe. There are one or two very obvious upgrades but do they outweigh the overall loss of Buendia and Skipp? Maybe, but like I said, not overwhelming convincingly so I’m my opinion. 

[Indy 3,283]

Our starting 11 v Liverpool 2019.

Krul

Aarons

Hanley (c)

Godfrey

Lewis

K McLean
Trybull

Buendia

Steipermann

Cantwell

Pukki

 

So the question right now without any further additions, (I think there will be) is our starting 11 this season v Liverpool stronger?

 

Krul

Aarons

Hanley

Zimmerman

Gannoulis

Gilmour

McClean

Rashica

Cantwell

Dowell

Pukki

 

Right now with Gibsons injury, this starting 11 isn’t much different, might be a very close game if you could play each Norwich 11 against each other, for me no significant improvement.

 

 

[cornish sam 944]

13 minutes ago, Coneys Knee said:

Maybe. There are one or two very obvious upgrades but do they outweigh the overall loss of Buendia and Skipp? Maybe, but like I said, not overwhelming convincingly so I’m my opinion. 

But we didn't have skipp two seasons ago and buendia two seasons ago was a much different proposition to last season, he was more petulant and mercurial....

 

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Our starting 11 v Liverpool 2019.

Krul

Aarons

Hanley (c)

Godfrey

Lewis

K McLean
Trybull

Buendia

Steipermann

Cantwell

Pukki

 

So the question right now without any further additions, (I think there will be) is our starting 11 this season v Liverpool stronger?

 

Krul

Aarons

Hanley

Zimmerman

Gannoulis

Gilmour

McClean

Rashica

Cantwell

Dowell

Pukki

 

Right now with Gibsons injury, this starting 11 isn’t much different, might be a very close game if you could play each Norwich 11 against each other, for me no significant improvement.

 

 

I would say the current one is much stronger the only weaker player from that match would be Zimmerman < Godfrey. Pukki now is possibly < pukki then as well, but the other players still here are far better than they were then and the new players are all better than the replaced players two years ago (assuming we get rashica hitting the ground running)

[chicken 2,604]

Just now, Coneys Knee said:

Maybe. There are one or two very obvious upgrades but do they outweigh the overall loss of Buendia and Skipp? Maybe, but like I said, not overwhelming convincingly so I’m my opinion. 

The issue with that is that it ignores all of the squad development.

Cantwell, Buendia, Hernandez, Roberts in 2019-20 Vs Cantwell, Rashica, Dowell, Hernandez, Placheta now. We have essentially lost Buendia but gained Dowell, Rashica and Placheta, whilst Cantwell is another season more experienced. AND we want to add another wide player.

Do we have a single player that is better than Buendia? Rashica certainly has comparable stats and arguably has been playing at a higher level for longer - though clearly not the same player.

Worth noting though, that Dowell started 14 games last season and made a further 12 appearances as a sub, scoring 6 goals. Buendia made 39 starts and two sub appearances scoring 15 goals. In 2018-19, Buendia scored 8 goals in 41 appearances.

Buendia was not the player he ended last season as when he first arrived. Dowell has a full season working under Farke behind him now. What's to say he can't transition to be a better player the same as Buendia? Rashica too? We already know a focused and on form Cantwell is capable, but could he become even better?

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

16 minutes ago, Coneys Knee said:

Maybe. There are one or two very obvious upgrades but do they outweigh the overall loss of Buendia and Skipp? Maybe, but like I said, not overwhelming convincingly so I’m my opinion. 

Skipp was never ' ours' ...much as we'd like it. What's more  seems like Emi wasn't that keen either, he played well for us, brilliantly  at times,  but seemed to want  to move on up the footy ladder ASAP.  Such is our lot for a while yet anyway,  maybe forever as it takes being seriously wealthy to say no to the bigger clubs .Even then you can be left with an unhappy player.  

On the OP, I'd say we are heading in the right direction to being stronger. 

[hogesar 9,616]

16 minutes ago, Indy said:

Our starting 11 v Liverpool 2019.

Krul

Aarons

Hanley (c)

Godfrey

Lewis

K McLean
Trybull

Buendia

Steipermann

Cantwell

Pukki

 

So the question right now without any further additions, (I think there will be) is our starting 11 this season v Liverpool stronger?

 

Krul

Aarons

Hanley

Zimmerman

Gannoulis

Gilmour

McClean

Rashica

Cantwell

Dowell

Pukki

 

Right now with Gibsons injury, this starting 11 isn’t much different, might be a very close game if you could play each Norwich 11 against each other, for me no significant improvement.

 

 

I would say so - Cantwell and Aarons have improved from 2 years ago considerably, as has Mclean in all honesty.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, Coneys Knee said:

I also think the there is an inclination to over exaggerate the weakness of our squad simply due to the fact we’ve lost Buendia

Any good reason why Max Aarons was not in the squad? 

As the press seem to be linking him all over the place again.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I would say so - Cantwell and Aarons have improved from 2 years ago considerably, as has Mclean in all honesty.

Honestly think we're keeping hold of Aarons? 

I really doubt it.

[Mason 47 1,373]

In terms of personnel we probably don't look as strong from the outside, but there's a couple of intangibles that I think will make a big difference. 

The amount of top-level experience has improved all the way across our back line- we had 31 total PL appearances in the 4 that started at Liverpool, and those were all Hanley who then got injured forever. The Hanley-Gibson partnership really looked a strong one up until injury split them up, Max is at an age where he will only get stronger and faster and Giannoulis once settled looks every bit a PL fullback.

In central mid I do believe we still look a little short-changed but there's a clear attitude in our recruitment for that area, looking for players that can play but also get stuck in (both Gilmour and PLM are variations on that theme)

And finally, we stuck with Farke. He will absolutely know that if we push our fullbacks incredibly high in every game, we'll probably get battered; he'll also be very aware that when Pukki's form dried up we could barely muster a goal. Am I saying I wouldn't care if we didn't sign anyone else? Not at all, I think we are 2 signings away from being truly competitive. But would this team beat us from 2 years ago? Hard to see anything else as an outcome. 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

"Clubs won't let Good players leave until they have a replacement lined up. The euros only just recently finished and players only just started to come back from holidays."

Not true..Buendia...

[Canary dwarf 221]

32 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Honestly think we're keeping hold of Aarons? 

I really doubt it.

Webber will this time hold out for top dollar and although there is interest , will anybody meet are valuation.

[Yelloow Since 72 54]

Looking at the present squad (in bold) and that of our 2019-20 PL season the level of improvement is considerable considering we could have another CB, LB, DM and striker to come. Buendia is the major loss, but it depends on whether Rashica and Lees-Melou can make up for his loss.

GK: Krul, Gunn, McGovern
GK: Krul Fahrmann McGovern

CB: Hanley Zimmerman Gibson Omobamidele Sørensen
CB: Hanley Zimmerman Godfrey Klose

RB/WB: Aarons Byram Mumba
RB/WB: Aarons Byram
LB/WB: Giannoulis Byram Mumba
LB/WB: Lewis, Byram

DM: Sørensen [Skipp? or other] Sitti
DM: Tettey Amadou
CM: Gilmour Lees-Melou McLean Rupp.    CM: McLean Rupp Vrančić Leitner Trybull   

WR:Rashica (Dowell) Rupp                          WR:Buendia Drmic Rupp                              WL:Cantwell Hernandez Placheta              WL:Cantwell Hernandez   

AM: Rashica Dowell Cantwell Rupp.    AM: Stiepermann Vrančić Cantwell Rupp

S: Pukki Hugill Idah
S: Pukki Rhodes Drmic

Edited July 18, 2021 by Yelloow Since 72

[Uncle Fred 526]

We really are fooling ourselves if we think we have significantly strengthened. The article In the athletic today saying all of our CB options have gone is a big worry because clearly the execution of our transfer plan has gone so badly wrong 

once again Farke Is being sent into battle without the right ammunition 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Uncle Fred

[chicken 2,604]

43 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

"Clubs won't let Good players leave until they have a replacement lined up. The euros only just recently finished and players only just started to come back from holidays."

Not true..Buendia...

Is true. Buendia wasn't at the Euro's was he? And we had a replacement lined up... Rashica.

[hogesar 9,616]

1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

"Clubs won't let Good players leave until they have a replacement lined up. The euros only just recently finished and players only just started to come back from holidays."

Not true..Buendia...

 

We already has Rashica lined up, if people itk like Bailey are correct.. 

[hogesar 9,616]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Honestly think we're keeping hold of Aarons? 

I really doubt it.

No idea to be honest but we have to judge the squad on its current state. If Aarons go we could strengthen in 3 areas for example.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

What stuffed us against Liverpool was the naive tactics. Jamal Lewis marking VvD at a corner, Aarons caught out of position way up the pitch. Hanley's unfortunate slice which could have gone anywhere and if I remember simply a great goal from Salah.

Liverpool scored with ease in that game, it was men against boys. Nevertheless I think we had more shots at Anfield than any other opponent for 2 years in that game. Impressive, but also the reason we got picked off with ease.

The personnel may not have changed much, but hopefully all involved are more experineced, less naive and defensively we wont be that embarrassing this time around.

No reason to look at the teams, conclude they're pretty similar therefore the result will be the same. I think the main thing we learned last time is that you cant avoid relegation from the Prem by playing like you're trying to win the championship.

Last season we still won the championship, but did so in a far more controlled, organised and defensively minded set-up. We were able to score goals and win games whilst keeping the back door shut, something we'd previously needed to sacrifce in order to overload in our attacking play.

Where the concern lies is that two vital parts of how we did that have not as yet been effectively replaced, in Emi (perhaps Gilmour will provide this - but still thats just a temporary fix) and Skipp (temporary fix comes to an end).

We must ensure we do adequately replace these players. We never replaced Grant Holt's vital role in the team when he was 'upgraded' and we mustnt make the same mistake.

For me the most important signing this season is an aggressive, combative, physical ball winning DM.

Edited July 18, 2021 by The Great Mass Debater

[FatCanary 249]

20 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Really? Did you watch the match v Kings Lynn? While it was mainly a fitness exercise, it is clear that a back three is quite likely something that will be used this season and that this was a useful experiment in that. Sorensen used in a back three and two wing backs, easily changes to a back four with Sorensen moving forwards into a DM position during a match, so represents a flexible approach - something we should surely be used to after four seasons under Farke.

If nothing else, we should expect our play and tactics to evolve further next season and these pre-season games will offer some clues as to how that may occur.  How Sorensen will be integrated into the team is of particular interest.

People get too stuck in their mindsets of formations, because the truth is we change it continually through matches, depending on the various stages of the game.  I would hope - and expect - that we will see even more flexibility of the formations used this coming season as Farke tries to develop things on to match what is needed in the PL this time round. Last time we were stymied by injuries, but hopefully, this season will be better from that point of view and we will a furter development of Farkeball....an increase in the "total football" ideal where opposition teams are bamboozled by our movement and fluidity from front to back.  We are already good at that, but imo it will be taken to a new level.  We'll see.  

 

Case in point really. The rest is just conjecture. Remember when Simon Whaley was going to be our new star winger after one preseason game? We may well be using three at the back more often, or it was entirely facilitated by the players we had available for this game, which is quite far from a first eleven in my book, but it is still too early to tell.

Yes really, I did watch the game thank you. I'm just not naive enough to start shoving pegs into holes in mid July. 

[FatCanary 249]

18 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Doesn't sound like you know much about it.

A player being able to drop right into the training at the same intensity relies on them being at the same stage of their pre-season and having sufficient levels of fitness, and Farke sets that bar very high.

Almost all players who talk seem to mention the intensity of Farke's training sessions, and we have double sessions too (most clubs still don't).

So plonk a player from the French second tier into this squads training and then expecting them to get up to speed and playing games with the rest of the squad, I'd argue that 28 days is not much time at all. 

In terms of signing players who are ready able to start a fixture on GW1, I'd argue that we're fast running out of time.

Can you not remember when we signed Nelson Oliviera on 30th August 2016, and he didn't start a game until November? 

Webber has often spoke about how its important to get players in early when possible, and about how important it was that we were able to dot his last summer to mount a promotion challenge, I'll trust his word on that rather than Mr. Anonymous from the internet who admits that he's fat and therefore knows nothing about keeping any part of him fit apart from his right arm. 

Very disrespectful, really.

I'm not going to reply to that. I disagree that 28 days is a short time in preseason.

you will find your worries to be ill founded.

I don't expect any kind of apology.

All the best.

[Indy 3,283]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I would say so - Cantwell and Aarons have improved from 2 years ago considerably, as has Mclean in all honesty.

Possibly, but that’s at champions level, we’ll see, but we’ve lost Godfrey, Lewis and Buendia all of who were superb, replaced them with Gibson, Giannoulis and Rashica, Trybull and Steipermann were decent enough especially in their champion season prior to us going up last time, so will Gilmour and Dowell be as good, still questionable, time will tell.

In reality I don’t see any huge quality difference, what I do see is our self sustaining model bringing in decent  amount of profit and replacement players of very good quality….

Edited July 18, 2021 by Indy

[nutty nigel 7,509]

If Todwell  hasn't proved he will still need to go out on loan to Rotherham ..

🙃

[hogesar 9,616]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Possibly, but that’s at champions level, we’ll see, but we’ve lost Godfrey, Lewis and Buendia all of who were superb, replaced them with Gibson, Giannoulis and Rashica, Trybull and Steipermann were decent enough especially in their champion season prior to us going up last time, so will Gilmour and Dowell be as good, still questionable, time will tell.

In reality I don’t see any huge quality difference, what I do see is our self sustaining model bringing in dec3n5 amount of profit and replacement players of very good quality….

Re your two examples i don't think you need to be a genius to identify Dowell is far more talented than Stiepermann and ditto Gilmoir over Trybull.

[Indy 3,283]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Re your two examples i don't think you need to be a genius to identify Dowell is far more talented than Stiepermann and ditto Gilmoir over Trybull.

Really, let’s take a look at Steipermann in the championship winning season pre 2019, 43 games played, 9 goals 7 assists. Not too shabby, so why do you think Dowell is better than Steipermann was two years ago? I don’t see that a genius would question Dowell’s ability till he’s played top tier football to make that judgement. Signs are good though!

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

It’s about the same - lost skipp and emi - gained rashica etc 

but we were told we would make a better go of it. So a few weeks left for the board to deliver.

my concern is that we often have the right desire but not enough resources to sign premiership quality players in terms of wages and fees- this seems to be playing out again. 
 

self funding model with poorest owners seems to lead to inevitable relegation, it only takes us so far…