Jump to content

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Then the rules are WRONG. It should be possible for a ref to deem any incident that is sufficiently dangerous to be able to decide for himself that a red card is the right decision.

 What you describe there is precisely what the notion of serious foul play covers if a tackle is seriously that bad. You will not find a single top-level referee who shares your interpretation of the foul or considers it as dangerous as you apparently seem to.

The rule in this case is fine. The referee's interpretation is absolutely correct. Anyone saying it's a red is WRONG. End of story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

 What you describe there is precisely what the notion of serious foul play covers if a tackle is seriously that bad. You will not find a single top-level referee who shares your interpretation of the foul or considers it as dangerous as you apparently seem to.

The rule in this case is fine. The referee's interpretation is absolutely correct. Anyone saying it's a red is WRONG. End of story.

Oh I doubt that 😀

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

You will not find a single top-level referee who shares your interpretation of the foul or considers it as dangerous as you apparently seem to.
 

If a referee can't see the danger in that incident, then maybe they shouldn't be refereeing.  It was not "just" a shirt pull. It was very dangerous and it was lucky Saka fell straight backwards because at the speed he was moving, an awkward fall could have led to serious injury. Most shirt pulls are not of that type, most are just slight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No-one said they can't see the danger, just that compared to the usual tackle / contact situations that might merit a straight red for serious foul play, it doesn't remotely compare in terms of danger. Any collision at high speed could result in the same type of awkward falls you describe. They don't necessarily have to be fouls either.

Most shirt pulls, which are slight, aren't even a yellow card either unless it's committed as part of persistent infringement. So this one got treated more harshly than usual anyway to reflect the extra zing in it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again - Its the incident that gets punished, as per the rules, not the outcome of said incident. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can’t believe this thread is still going 4 pages in.

Let me remind you what you asked Lakey:
“Anyone take the view that his challenge on Saka was worthy of a red card? “

Nearly everybody has told you no and from what I can see even from the few that think it should have been a red admit it wasn’t under the rules.

What are you still arguing for? Are you just determined to have the last word?

It wasn’t a red, no referee would have given a red and it’s over, we lost.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a cynical, irritating foul but if that's a red then the game is gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We could have a lot of suspensions next year if a shirt pull becomes a red card. If as suggested it is for dangerous play as well they will be 3 game suspensions. 
Good news though is I don’t see it happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

To be fair deliberate/ late fouls can be more dangerous in that often the fouled player cannot see it coming and brace/ relax muscles/ sort his feet out for impact. I don’t think a shirt pull is dangerous for a neck injury but potentially for muscular/ ligament damage. 

Edited by Jezzard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Monty13 said:

 

Can’t believe this thread is still going 4 pages in.

Let me remind you what you asked Lakey:
“Anyone take the view that his challenge on Saka was worthy of a red card? “

Nearly everybody has told you no and from what I can see even from the few that think it should have been a red admit it wasn’t under the rules.

What are you still arguing for? Are you just determined to have the last word?

It wasn’t a red, no referee would have given a red and it’s over, we lost.

He seems to be saying that the rules should be changed if a foul like that is not seen as a red card due to the danger involved. That's absurd as you'll end up with a cheater's charter if such a law was ever made. If you think simulation's bad now, this would make it infinitely worse.

IMO if we need to do anything re. contact fouls, it's lighten up a bit, not get stricter. Diving and simulation is the biggest cancer in the game, at least on the pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please say Laws . Association Football is governed by interpreting Laws , and not applying rules . 
 

I know I’m a pedant 😀but I was brought up in a household which lived and breathed refereeing. A close family friend was a Prem Ref and he still assesses today .
 

It was a yellow by the way. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Most shirt pulls, which are slight, aren't even a yellow card either unless it's committed as part of persistent infringement. So this one got treated more harshly than usual anyway to reflect the extra zing in it.

Not sure this is really true.

It has always been pretty clear that the kind of shirt pull Chellini did- ie player is past you and your yanking them back as you know you wont catch them- is a yellow, zing or no  zing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yellow all day long Jorginho however on Grealish is red and I am amazed how so many people aren't commenting on that.  Pundits saying he is potential Ballon D'or winner......really !!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not sure this is really true.

It has always been pretty clear that the kind of shirt pull Chellini did- ie player is past you and your yanking them back as you know you wont catch them- is a yellow, zing or no  zing.

Sure, but most shirt pulls aren't carded, that was the point. The fact this one did showed it was penalised more harshly and reflects circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, the laws of the game may say this is a yellow card, but within most yellow card situations, there is a line that can be crossed that turns it into a red card - and that challenge on Saka, to me would appear to cross a line in severity that the laws don't cover. What if a player grabs a shirt by the neck and turns it in his hand so that it has the effect of half strangling the player?  Is that not more than a yellow card?  I think there is a fault in the system if a ref can't make a free judgement based on the severity of the crime - and again, in this case, it was a case that in rugby would have received a sending off, or at least getting the perpetrator off the pitch for a while....and rugby is much more than a contact sport than football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Ok, the laws of the game may say this is a yellow card, but within most yellow card situations, there is a line that can be crossed that turns it into a red card - and that challenge on Saka, to me would appear to cross a line in severity that the laws don't cover. What if a player grabs a shirt by the neck and turns it in his hand so that it has the effect of half strangling the player?  Is that not more than a yellow card?  I think there is a fault in the system if a ref can't make a free judgement based on the severity of the crime - and again, in this case, it was a case that in rugby would have received a sending off, or at least getting the perpetrator off the pitch for a while....and rugby is much more than a contact sport than football.

You can't have the ref going 'off script' because he deems it more serious than the rules allow. 

Seriously?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, canarycop said:

Yellow all day long Jorginho however on Grealish is red and I am amazed how so many people aren't commenting on that.  Pundits saying he is potential Ballon D'or winner......really !!!!

European Cup Winner and Champions League Winner. Yeah can see why he is being talked about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

You can't have the ref going 'off script' because he deems it more serious than the rules allow. 

Seriously?? 

Why are people being so obtuse? I have said several times the rules need changing to allow refs to judge for themselves in these situations, not that they should flout the rules as they stand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally disagree. If anything, laws for fouls need loosening a little, not tightening up. You have a diver's charter right now because of overly stringent penalties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Why are people being so obtuse? I have said several times the rules need changing to allow refs to judge for themselves in these situations, not that they should flout the rules as they stand.

But surely the refs need guidelines/laws to follow? You can't just allow them to decide for themselves what's a yellow or red based on how they feel on a case-by-case basis. That would be utter chaos.

Edited by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But surely the refs need guidelines/laws to follow? You can't just allow them to decide for themselves what's a yellow or red based on how they feel on a case-by-case basis. That would be utter chaos.

Agreed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But surely the refs need guidelines/laws to follow? You can't just allow them to decide for themselves what's a yellow or red based on how they feel on a case-by-case basis. That would be utter chaos.

Exactly.

Fans moan about refs not applying common sense but also moan about a lack of consistency, not realising these things basically contradict each other. If you leave too much up to refs discretion you'll get wildly varying decisions week in week out depending on which ref you happen to have in charge of the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, king canary said:

Exactly.

Fans moan about refs not applying common sense but also moan about a lack of consistency, not realising these things basically contradict each other. If you leave too much up to refs discretion you'll get wildly varying decisions week in week out depending on which ref you happen to have in charge of the game. 

Didn't Simon Hooper show the extended discretion LDC alludes to as he viewed CJs overhead kick as dangerous. 

No city fan agreed with that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But surely the refs need guidelines/laws to follow? You can't just allow them to decide for themselves what's a yellow or red based on how they feel on a case-by-case basis. That would be utter chaos.

But making judgements on how they think or feel is what they do all the time, it goes with the job. If a particular type of incident is prescribed as at the maximum a yellow card, then I think this incident shows that it needs to be rethought. Grabbing hold of the neck of a shirt and roughly pulling to the ground could easily be construed as being violent. It is definitely deliberate and much more worthy of a severe sanction than many cards that are given for genuine attempts to get the ball and are just accidental mistimed tackles. Deliberate foul play should always be at least a yellow and as in this case, if more serious, a red should be an option. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

But making judgements on how they think or feel is what they do all the time, it goes with the job. If a particular type of incident is prescribed as at the maximum a yellow card, then I think this incident shows that it needs to be rethought. Grabbing hold of the neck of a shirt and roughly pulling to the ground could easily be construed as being violent. It is definitely deliberate and much more worthy of a severe sanction than many cards that are given for genuine attempts to get the ball and are just accidental mistimed tackles. Deliberate foul play should always be at least a yellow and as in this case, if more serious, a red should be an option. 

As a few have mentioned the Chellini challenge sits in a awkward middle ground where a yellow doesn't feel punishment enough but a red feels very OTT. 

A yellow card doesn't actually have any immediate negative affects for the team/player in question. Sure they have to tread a careful line but experienced pros like Chellini are used to that. The risk/reward when it comes to making a challenge like that is out of whack. However a red card is a huge, game altering decision and feels too heavy a punishment for a simple shirt pull near the halfway line.

I've always been interested in the idea of sin bins for fouls like this. So Chellini is risking leaving his team with 10 men for 10 minutes or so which may either make him think again or give the opposition an actual advantage as punishment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, king canary said:

As a few have mentioned the Chellini challenge sits in a awkward middle ground where a yellow doesn't feel punishment enough but a red feels very OTT. 

A yellow card doesn't actually have any immediate negative affects for the team/player in question. Sure they have to tread a careful line but experienced pros like Chellini are used to that. The risk/reward when it comes to making a challenge like that is out of whack. However a red card is a huge, game altering decision and feels too heavy a punishment for a simple shirt pull near the halfway line.

I've always been interested in the idea of sin bins for fouls like this. So Chellini is risking leaving his team with 10 men for 10 minutes or so which may either make him think again or give the opposition an actual advantage as punishment.

Can't agree with the bit in bold at all. A yellow card is clearly an offence which should not be repeated, otherwise the player is off. That's bang on with this.

The problems we have in the game right now are largely due to contact fouls being too strictly penalised, or the rewards for getting them are too much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You expect this from the Italians. And so do the officials. And so you make allowances for professional fouls and gamesmanship. If you are too nice you win nothing. Italy have 6 major championships. England have 1. Italy have appeared in 10 major finals. England 2. In any case, I like watching the Italians. You get the total package.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Can't agree with the bit in bold at all. A yellow card is clearly an offence which should not be repeated, otherwise the player is off. That's bang on with this.

The problems we have in the game right now are largely due to contact fouls being too strictly penalised, or the rewards for getting them are too much.

For me, absolutely not on the first part.

Saka was past Chellini, basically in behind the Italian defence with a great chance to create a goalscoring opportunity. The pullback denies that. There is no attempt to play the ball just a cynical stopping of what could have been an excellent chance for England. I don't see a 'don't do it again' punishment as being enough for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Greavsy said:

You can't have the ref going 'off script' because he deems it more serious than the rules allow. 

Seriously?? 

I don’t necessarily agree this was a red, but not sure this is quite right either.

Bottom line is that if a player does something that risks the safety of an opponent, it can be serious foul play and be worthy of a red. There isn’t anything which says a shirt pull can’t be a red - but obviously it’s going to be rare that a shirt pull is dangerous enough to put an opponent at risk.

But there clearly is an element of subjectivity there. Yanking someone back, round the neck, when they’re setting off at full speed has potential to cause injury to the opponent and therefore be serious foul play. The Chiellini one probably not a red, but if the ref had given it I’m not convinced VAR would have overturned it and I don’t think there would have been all that much outcry about it either. 

The ref wouldn’t have been going “off script” by giving it as a red, and nor do the rules mean a red couldn’t have been given. It is just the case that the ref (and most other people) in this case don’t think it was quite serious or dangerous enough to warrant a red. 


 

Edited by Aggy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...