Jump to content

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Until we get nasty like Italy, we will never win anything. While we have Sterling falling down at every opportunity and getting the ref believing he is diving, an Italian falls down holding his face in extreme pain. Then he gets his team mates to surround the ref with that pleading gesture that the chap is near death.

Then straightaway Chielini will cynically I would say wrench Saka's shirt and just get a booking while he gets his team mates to using the pleading gesture proclaiming Mrs Chielini's little boy wouldn't harm a fly.

Rugby is trying hard to stamp it out while many say its part of the game. Football appears to want to ignore foul play hence the foul on Grealish being deemed just a yellow. Jorginho's studs were showing went went for the tackle and luckily he got the ball square on or might have put Grealish out of the game.

You can be sent off for kicking the ball away, yellow card and then taking your shirt off in celebration, yellow card.

Football isn't even trying.

The yellow card for taking your shirt off is a political and financial one. 

1. it stops (theoretically)  players revealing messages on their undershirts. (political) 

2. it ensures the shirt sponsors are in full view, and the emphatic joyous scenes of celebrating a goal (Financial)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Kicking the ball away is delaying the restart of play. That's actually a good call for a yellow card, simply as it's a moronic thing to do - dissent likewise. That said, I have long taken the view that contact fouls are often punished a bit too harshly in card terms and it's part of the reason we have so much simulation now.

I'd also say that referees should start using the dangerous play free-kick offence (which is indirect) for penalising anything studs-up, even if they get the ball first.

Edited by TheGunnShow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

image.thumb.jpeg.13ee779990422de4cd6a615ade317e51.jpeg 

Not just a shirt pull, but one round the neck, clear risk of causing injury to the throat/choking injury. An orange is probably about right. (Photo from the telegraph)

Jorginho’s probably a red and how he hadn’t already got a yellow before that after about 463 fouls I have no idea.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Agreed. Hence the terms 'professional foul'  as you say & also 'Taking one for the team' 

I bet Chellini would have been happy to take a red there over being almost-certainly being the 36 year old who got skinned by the teenager for the late winner in the final of his last tournament, as Italy could always have had a go at parking the bus through extra time if it remained 1-1.

Any of us would have pulled him down, I'd want an England player to pull an Italy player down in that exact situation at that stage in the game. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of the whole 90 + 30 mins of the final.....I wonder how much of that time was football in play?....

No sour grapes because it's what I expected from Italy, they do Gamesmanship very well - and have it down to a distinct art.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Aggy said:

image.thumb.jpeg.13ee779990422de4cd6a615ade317e51.jpeg 

Not just a shirt pull, but one round the neck, clear risk of causing injury to the throat/choking injury. An orange is probably about right. (Photo from the telegraph)

Jorginho’s probably a red and how he hadn’t already got a yellow before that after about 463 fouls I have no idea.

Exactly this. Definite danger to the player. In the absence of an orange card, deliberate dangerous play is a sending off offence.

Edited by lake district canary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hauled him down like a rag doll. Proper Centre Half.

I'm more upset by the racial abuse he had to suffer tbh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Exactly this. Definite danger to the player. In the absence of an orange card, deliberate dangerous play is a sending off offence.

No it isn't, not according to the rules. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Calling it a shirt pull is just bonkers it was more like a wrestling move when someone gets pulled back and slammed to the floor. Can’t remember seeing that, with such force, in a football game before.

 

In the Prem I’d have expected Jorginho probably to have a straight red and wouldn’t have been surprised for Chiellini also for that challenge, normally the Italians know how to make a foul look not too bad, but not that time!

 

The refs in this tournament have let a lot go and while it lets the game flow, it does allow cynical challenges to stop an attacker getting away, like that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Exactly this. Definite danger to the player. In the absence of an orange card, deliberate dangerous play is a sending off offence.

No, the phrase is "serious foul play", and that is most categorically not it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d have not been surprised to have seen a red card for either of those offences. I’d also like to see a replay of what looked a clear penalty on sterling. It seems var was not obviously not working last night

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joginho should have gone for a second yellow at the very least, how VAR watched that back and decided against a red is absolutely ridiculous. Think Emi, or even Dimi against Pierson this season. Definitely should have walked but got away with it by faking an injury and getting some sympathy. Grealish rightfully livid. I'd have been tempted to chop him down 2 minutes later so fair play to Grealish for letting it go!

As for Chiellini, in his defence I don't think intended to hurt Saka at all. Knowing he was far too quick just grabbed his shirt and pulled him down, definitely don't think he intentionally went for the neck of the shirt. I can understand the frustration but it's a yellow all day long and we'd be very upset if a Norwich player got sent off for a similar thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

Of the whole 90 + 30 mins of the final.....I wonder how much of that time was football in play?....

No sour grapes because it's what I expected from Italy, they do Gamesmanship very well - and have it down to a distinct art.....

When Barcelona were winning everything in sight, they could also be nasty. It's a part of football. How do you manage the opposition. The "game management" and "gamesmanship" is that you disrupt, you hassle, you prevent the opposition from finding a rhythm, from being able to flow and to stop them getting to top gear and on their A game. As horrible as it is, that is part of football unless they change the laws of the game.

Man Utd under Ferguson used to be good at it too. It's why there was a clash of culture between him and Wenger in terms of footballing styles. Kean and Scholes were very capable of dishing out professional fouls of that type.

Chiellini is clever. Nearer the half way line than the goal, with defenders further back than him. Saka would have broken away and England had the breaking numbers to cause a threat if Saka didn't go all the way himself - doubtful IMHO. Yellow all day long. Horrible, cynical and nasty, but a yellow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone who doesn't win hates the winners. Leeds, Man Utd, Italy, whoever it is. Denmark hate us because Sterling dived; the fact that we were the better team is irrelevant to them.

Chiellini and his team won, so whatever he did to make that happen is justified. 

I can't remember the last time any football team won anything by being completely fair, honest and admirable.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

 

I can't remember the last time any football team won anything by being completely fair, honest and admirable.

2006 FA Cup Final

2015 Championship Play-off Final

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:
19 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Exactly this. Definite danger to the player. In the absence of an orange card, deliberate dangerous play is a sending off offence.

No, the phrase is "serious foul play", and that is most categorically not it.

Just because it was pulling the shirt, does not mean it was not serious foul play.  It was pulling the shirt which in the way it was done was serious foul play - the front of his shirt was pulled into his neck and he went headlong backwards on to his back.  Dangerous in the extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Just because it was pulling the shirt, does not mean it was not serious foul play.  It was pulling the shirt which in the way it was done was serious foul play - the front of his shirt was pulled into his neck and he went headlong backwards on to his back.  Dangerous in the extreme.

So John Ruddy should have been sent off when he KO'ed Drogba then? That was more dangerous every single time. Complete accident, but still more dangerous.

You will not find a single top-level referee ANYWHERE who takes the stance that Chiellini should have walked for a shirt grab under the guise of serious foul play. Not one. Sure, it was a cynical piece of defending. If he'd been the last man, then yes, serious foul play would kick in there.

Saying this is a red card is the call of a bad loser with no sense of reality.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

So John Ruddy should have been sent off when he KO'ed Drogba then? That was more dangerous every single time. Complete accident, but still more dangerous.

You will not find a single top-level referee ANYWHERE who takes the stance that Chiellini should have walked for a shirt grab under the guise of serious foul play. Not one. Sure, it was a cynical piece of defending. If he'd been the last man, then yes, serious foul play would kick in there.

Saying this is a red card is the call of a bad loser with no sense of reality.

Totally agree - however Ruddy's was totally accidental, Chiellini's wasnt.

However neither warrant a red, according to the rules. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Totally agree - however Ruddy's was totally accidental, Chiellini's wasnt.

However neither warrant a red, according to the rules. 

I know, I said as such that it was a complete accident. Not get a much better example of a challenge where a serious issue can come around though.

Edited by TheGunnShow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You did indeed Gunny! 

As I've stated before, you can only be charged with the offence (if any) committed as defined by the rules. The outcome of said 'offence' should not affect the judgement of mentioned offence or any punishment applied. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately it could only be given as a yellow but morally a red. Logically any occasion when a player is happier to ‘take a yellow’ should be a red but this would be hard to apply. I’d almost like any deliberate foul to be a red as the player has the choice of not making it; however it would be a minefield to apply. Delighted Harry Wilson got the red v Denmark- he did the an identical deliberate foul in the home match v Cardiff when we were 2-0 up in the last minute. But this had the endangering opponent so was in laws as a red. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

So John Ruddy should have been sent off when he KO'ed Drogba then? That was more dangerous every single time. Complete accident, but still more dangerous.

You will not find a single top-level referee ANYWHERE who takes the stance that Chiellini should have walked for a shirt grab under the guise of serious foul play. Not one. Sure, it was a cynical piece of defending. If he'd been the last man, then yes, serious foul play would kick in there.

Saying this is a red card is the call of a bad loser with no sense of reality.

Rubbish. Nothing to do with losing. It was a horrific assault as shown in the pictures of Saka having his shirt pulled into his neck as he was dragged down flat on his back and head.  It was deliberate too - shirt pulling AND serious foul play in that it endangered the player.  Any decent ref - imo - should look at that and say it was serious foul play. Spouting rules and saying it was only shirt pulling is a cop out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Rubbish. Nothing to do with losing. It was a horrific assault as shown in the pictures of Saka having his shirt pulled into his neck as he was dragged down flat on his back and head.  It was deliberate too - shirt pulling AND serious foul play in that it endangered the player.  Any decent ref - imo - should look at that and say it was serious foul play. Spouting rules and saying it was only shirt pulling is a cop out.

Except it wasn't serious foul play, and that's the end of it.

Go and show me a referee opinion / interpretation backing up what you said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Rubbish. Nothing to do with losing. It was a horrific assault as shown in the pictures of Saka having his shirt pulled into his neck as he was dragged down flat on his back and head.  It was deliberate too - shirt pulling AND serious foul play in that it endangered the player.  Any decent ref - imo - should look at that and say it was serious foul play. Spouting rules and saying it was only shirt pulling is a cop out.

Fella, you're making yourself look silly now, anyway I thought you didn't care about England??? 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Except it wasn't serious foul play, and that's the end of it.

Go and show me a referee opinion / interpretation backing up what you said.

I stressed it is my opinion so I don't need to back up anything.  It was dangerous in the extreme and was not a typical shirt pulling incident where someone grabs your shirt lower down - this was actually more of an assault.  Blah blah it's the rules - so be it, but that doesn't make it right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, lake district canary said:

I stressed it is my opinion so I don't need to back up anything.  It was dangerous in the extreme and was not a typical shirt pulling incident where someone grabs your shirt lower down - this was actually more of an assault.  Blah blah it's the rules - so be it, but that doesn't make it right. 

Then it's an uninformed opinion based merely on your feeling of the situation. That's fine, but realise that the rules have said differently.

The referee is there to apply the rules as they stand. That is not serious foul play. It does not deny a clear goalscoring opportunity. It is not the kind of late impact tackle that would result in a straight red card for serious foul play either. And it can't be violent conduct as that's basically off the ball.

Easiest yellow card decision you'll ever see all tournament. Anything else is quite simply WRONG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Fella, you're making yourself look silly now

Silly to say it was a serious and dangerous challenge?  And if it was serious and dangerous, then it should be possible for a ref to determine that for himself and make his own judgement and not hide behind the rule book.  It should be possible for a physically dangerous shirt pulling incident as this was, to be deemed serious enough to warrant a sending off.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Then it's an uninformed opinion based merely on your feeling of the situation. That's fine, but realise that the rules have said differently.

The referee is there to apply the rules as they stand. That is not serious foul play. It does not deny a clear goalscoring opportunity. It is not the kind of late impact tackle that would result in a straight red card for serious foul play either. And it can't be violent conduct as that's basically off the ball.

Easiest yellow card decision you'll ever see all tournament. Anything else is quite simply WRONG.

Then the rules are WRONG. It should be possible for a ref to deem any incident that is sufficiently dangerous to be able to decide for himself that a red card is the right decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...