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England Vs Italy

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I’m gutted so probably shouldn’t be posting but that was horrific tactically tonight. Southgate got almost everything wrong he could have done. Nice guy, great ambassador, good ethos etc etc but as a tactical coach he remains poor and cost us that tournament.

Since the World Cup all we’ve needed to do is find a midfield combo to give us control in gsmes and some creativity and he can’t do it. Sat off them, invited pressure and let them score. Then to top it off let two players take pens who’ve not touched the ball and a 19 year old who has been utterly **** miss the crucial kick. Gutted.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

You want to walk around straight after that game with a literal reminder of the failure to win it round your neck? I wouldn’t and it’s not something unusual. It’s not like they threw them in the bin or something.

Each to their own, I guess, but I wouldn't rip it off straight away in front of the UEFA President and the TV cameras. Just leave it ten seconds.

Edited by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I’m gutted so probably shouldn’t be posting but that was horrific tactically tonight. Southgate got almost everything wrong he could have done. Nice guy, great ambassador, good ethos etc etc but as a tactical coach he remains poor and cost us that tournament.

Since the World Cup all we’ve needed to do is find a midfield combo to give us control in gsmes and some creativity and he can’t do it. Sat off them, invited pressure and let them score. Then to top it off let two players take pens who’ve not touched the ball and a 19 year old who has been utterly **** miss the crucial kick. Gutted.

Just me feeling smug about all the times I have said that while Southgate has done well he's still poor when it comes to tactics

 

Also crying but you know, expected

Edited by cambridgeshire canary

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Posted (edited)

Interesting the other day he subbed Grealish off after subbing him on and that was hailed as clever management.

 

Yet tonight he watched on as Saka messed up everything that came to him all the way through to the final and decisive kick.

Edited by GJP
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Great to get the early goal then terrible from minute 2. Tactics were bad, subs were bad, but the performance of the subs was even worse! Saka is a lovely kid but looked completely lost and scared on that pitch. Seems mad to let a 19 year old that’s been that poor let him take one.

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Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

Just me feeling smug about all the times I have said that while Southgate has done well he's still poor when it comes to tactics

Can't agree there - his line-ups have generally been spot-on and the changes made to starting line-ups were often a real plus. Trippier started tonight as the only change, and set Shaw up! Everyone was bemused at the formation against Croatia, but it got the win - same with Germany too.

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Have to agree with the general opinion. We just seemed to run out of steam after 35 mins and thereafter really only one team in it. Gareth had a good tournament but poor decisions to ask three rookies to take the penalties particularly as two them had hardly touched the ball on the pitch.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, GJP said:

Interesting the other day he subbed Grealish off after subbing him on and that was hailed as clever management.

 

Yet tonight he watched on as Saka messed up everything that came to him all the way through to the final and decisive kick.

clever management? Pretty much everyone I saw was confused at the time

Edited by cambridgeshire canary

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The big problem for me was starting Trippier. It was clear early on that Italy could be exploited in that area but we picked a player who can't exploit those situations. Fair enough he put a decent ball in for the goal (most players can do a decent cross with time and space) but he can't put defenders to the sword. If you're the Italian left back you're happy to see him in the team. Did them a favour. Too cautious from Southgate.

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6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I’m gutted so probably shouldn’t be posting but that was horrific tactically tonight. Southgate got almost everything wrong he could have done. Nice guy, great ambassador, good ethos etc etc but as a tactical coach he remains poor and cost us that tournament.

Since the World Cup all we’ve needed to do is find a midfield combo to give us control in gsmes and some creativity and he can’t do it. Sat off them, invited pressure and let them score. Then to top it off let two players take pens who’ve not touched the ball and a 19 year old who has been utterly **** miss the crucial kick. Gutted.

Jesus the revisionism has started quick. Southgate got everything right up until the last 75 mins of this tournament and even then we weren’t beaten on the field.

He’s not infallible and I think we can all analyse the mistakes (without context) that lost us the game, but to suggest he’s been tactically inept just doesn’t match reality.

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Posted (edited)

Hughtonesque, all tournament. Time to get back to watching proper one touch, pacy and entertaining football not that anti-football cr@p. The look on Grealish’s face at the end said it all - why don’t England managers trust our flair midfield players - ever?  

Edited by Surfer
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2 minutes ago, GJP said:

The big problem for me was starting Trippier. It was clear early on that Italy could be exploited in that area but we picked a player who can't exploit those situations. Fair enough he put a decent ball in for the goal (most players can do a decent cross with time and space) but he can't put defenders to the sword. If you're the Italian left back you're happy to see him in the team. Did them a favour. Too cautious from Southgate.

He got the assist for the goal, he kept getting in loads of space which worked really well for the first 10 mins. But then we sat off them, pleased with 1-0

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Just now, WD40 said:

He got the assist for the goal, he kept getting in loads of space which worked really well for the first 10 mins. But then we sat off them, pleased with 1-0

Yup. He got in loads of space but couldn't do anything with it. Decent cross for the goal but numerous opportunities to drive at them weren't taken because he doesn't have it in the locker. 

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11 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Can't agree there - his line-ups have generally been spot-on and the changes made to starting line-ups were often a real plus. Trippier started tonight as the only change, and set Shaw up! Everyone was bemused at the formation against Croatia, but it got the win - same with Germany too.

The fact we won games does not mean his line ups were spot on. Don’t believe we’ve played our best team at any point in this tournament. 

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

The fact we won games does not mean his line ups were spot on. Don’t believe we’ve played our best team at any point in this tournament. 

Probably because the "best" team of individual players wouldn't have made the most coherent unit.

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8 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Jesus the revisionism has started quick. Southgate got everything right up until the last 75 mins of this tournament and even then we weren’t beaten on the field.

He’s not infallible and I think we can all analyse the mistakes (without context) that lost us the game, but to suggest he’s been tactically inept just doesn’t match reality.

Don’t agree. I’ve not agreed with many of his selections. He’s a great bloke, mentor, man manager, ambassador etc. But tactically he is limited and always has been and his blind spot is the midfield. 

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1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Probably because the "best" team of individual players wouldn't have made the most coherent unit.

Or because they don’t know how to coach anything other than kick and rush, counter attacking. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I’m gutted so probably shouldn’t be posting but that was horrific tactically tonight. Southgate got almost everything wrong he could have done. Nice guy, great ambassador, good ethos etc etc but as a tactical coach he remains poor and cost us that tournament.

Since the World Cup all we’ve needed to do is find a midfield combo to give us control in games and some creativity and he can’t do it. Sat off them, invited pressure and let them score. Then to top it off let two players take pens who’ve not touched the ball and a 19 year old who has been utterly **** miss the crucial kick. Gutted.

Neither team is my team, but perhaps Italy were just better, Jim? Actually that is not a perhaps. They were better. This is not hindsight. I said before the game started that, based on matches so far, Italy looked better in midfield. It is an kind of insular arrogance to think it is just bad team selection that means England didn't have control AND creativity in midfield.

You make that sound so easy but a midfield that is at one and the same time controlled and creative is one of the holy grails of football. Who - from those available - would you have picked?

Edited by PurpleCanary
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4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Or because they don’t know how to coach anything other than kick and rush, counter attacking. 

That's been a problem in English football for decades. Only being remedied in junior football over the last 10-15 years. Hell, I remember refereeing U11 games on full-size pitches in my late teens / early twenties at the turn of the millennium. No wonder you only had pace and power merchants.

They're getting there, slowly.

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Sancho would be in most teams in this tournament but strangley not the one he CAN play for. 

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54 minutes ago, KiwiScot said:

I always want England to win, but everytime I get to laugh. Poor penalties.no ideas in the final third once the opposition start playing. Beaten by first decent team they come across.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

You are aware Scotland only got in it because it was unnecessarily bloated to 24 teams; it was almost impossible not to qualify if your country could kick a ball!

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4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Neither team is my team, but perhaps Italy were just better, Jim? Actually that is not a perhaps. They were better. This is not hindsight. I said before the game started that, based on matches so far, Italy looked better in midfield. It is an kind of insular arrogance to think it is just bad team selection that means England didn't have control AND creativity in midfield.

You make that sound so easy but a midfield that is at one and the same time controlled and creative is one of the holy grails of football. Who - from those available - would you have picked?

Have said this all tournament that the Rice/Philips midfield is an issue but to be honest it should have been sorted before the tournament. Both played very well. But both play better without the other. They give us a degree of defensive security although not as much as they should do. The answer is one of them next to a ball player. It’s similar to the Tettey/ Trybull combo at Norwich. Needs a ball player/passer who can transition the ball quicker from the CBs to the attacking players. 
 

we should have been playing Foden/Grealish or Maddison in a deeper role for about  two years now. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

If we can agree on anything can we agree that having two players who have hardly played any game time whatsoever and the youngest player on the team, who's never taken a pen for neither England or Arsenal to pin all of 50 years worth of an entire nations hopes and dreams on during a shootout is very, very poor managment?

Edited by cambridgeshire canary
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My God, what a dreadful final it was in terms of football. Completely underwhelming. We bottled it.

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With the ability to make 5 subs in normal time I think it's criminal that Southgate and his backroom team couldn't see the inevitability of the Italian equaliser and make a proactive substitution in an attempt to change the flow of the match in the 22 minutes of the second half before Italy scored.

It might not have worked, but it couldn't have made things any worse in my opinion. 

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You guys need to look at Italy to find the reason England lost. They came back from halftime a new team. England faced a superior opponent and it went to pens. That's an achievement. A great national team full of young players... England's future looks very bright.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Matt Juler said:

With the ability to make 5 subs in normal time I think it's criminal that Southgate and his backroom team couldn't see the inevitability of the Italian equaliser and make a proactive substitution in an attempt to change the flow of the match in the 22 minutes of the second half before Italy scored.

It might not have worked, but it couldn't have made things any worse in my opinion. 

I agree. Those of you saying that Southgate was tactically inept can't have been watching the first 30 minutes. We absolutely shocked them with our formation, which was designed to get Shaw and Trippier free and worked almost straight away. It worked twice more but the delivery wasn't good enough - Italy's far post has been their weakness all tournament, and by dropping Kane deep and moving Sterling onto their centre backs we had them on the ropes; they didn't know what to do.

But then, for some unknown reason, we sat off them and tried to hold on to 1-0. God knows why. At half time, it should have been changed - Sancho or Grealish, even Rashford for Trippier at that point and revert to four at the back. But nothing changed and Italy got stronger and stronger - they knew they would win. One missed near post header was the difference, but Pickford made some decent saves whereas Donnarumma had nothing to do.

So, the Southgate plan didn't ultimately work, but it was damn close. We didn't concede a goal in open play and still didn't win the thing - maybe that will finally convince him that leaving all the flair on the bench doesn't win trophies.

No one can say that we deserved it on the night because we didn't; we stopped trying to win it and reverted to the Hughton-eque tactics which have served him well. But if we hadn't stood off them after 30 minutes we could have been out of sight.

Edited by sgncfc
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3 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I agree. Those of you saying that Southgate was tactically inept can't have been watching the first 30 minutes. We absolutely shocked them with our formation, which was designed to get Shaw and Trippier free and worked almost straight away. It worked twice more but the delivery wasn't good enough - Italy's far post has been their weakness all tournament, and by dropping Kane deep and moving Sterling onto their centre backs we had them on the ropes; they didn't know what to do.

But then, for some unknown reason, we sat off them and tried to hold on to 1-0. God knows why. At half time, it should have been changed - Sancho or Grealish, even Rashford for Trippier at that point and revert to four at the back. But nothing changed and Italy got stronger and stronger - they knew they would win. One missed near post header was the difference, but Pickford made some decent saves whereas Donnarumma had nothing to do.

So, the Southgate plan didn't ultimately work, but it was damn close. We didn't concede a goal in open play and still didn't win the thing - maybe that will finally convince him that leaving all the flair on the bench doesn't win trophies.

No one can say that we deserved it on the night because we didn't; we stopped trying to win it and reverted to the Hughton-eque tactics which have served him well. But if we hadn't stood off them after 30 minutes we could have been out of sight.

He is limited because he is reactive and does not read the game and change it. He’s like Hughton. Our early goal was what worked a treat but we could not have been “out of sight” as we didn’t actually create much else.

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I must admit i never watched the match so cannot comment on it, but from what ive heard on here it was the inevitable. Decades of watching England not win anything put paid to me ever watching them seriously again. Feel sorry for guys much younger than me who  maybe got swept along with this past weeks overhyped hope and euphoria, they will learn to not get hopes up over England ever winning anything..a mix of bad luck and hopeless penalty taking drains you after a few tournaments. Did ok to get to the final but happy i did not bother to  see it happen once again. Stick to club football following.

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