England Vs Italy

[Petriix 2,834]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

But only one of us is actually addressing the other's points raised. I think there is a reason for that.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but the 'points' I see you making are mostly a subjective assessment of whether we were above or below par. 

I'm looking at a bigger picture: it's a young and evolving team with enormous potential to get better and better over the next few years. There will inevitably be some tweaks to the tactics and hopefully a slightly better balance between attack and defence.

But it's really strange to be looking at this as a failure or shortcoming. It's been really enjoyable and we should all be immensely proud of both the achievement and the way in which the players and manager have conducted themselves.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

But his play absolutely does merit it. If you base it on just simplistic 'goals/assists' then maybe not. But by every conceivable metric and from watching his play, Mount more than deserves to be in the conversation. He's far from limited.

Mount is decent enough. Not sure he merits the “first name on the team sheet” status he seems to have acquired but I agree he should be in the mix. He does the dirty work more than some of the others. 

What bugs me a bit with Mount (and it’s not his fault) though is that he got selected repeatedly a while back at a stage where he probably did not deserve to be playing, at the expense of others such as Maddison, Grealish and Foden. Because of that, Southgate never took a proper look at what Maddison could do and didn’t really give Grealish and Foden a run early enough to work out how we can best fit them in either. I think his mind was made up that he wanted Mount in there from a very early stage. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, king canary said:

Yeah we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. He's a key component of the Champions League winners. To suggest he's just a hard worker is nonsense. 

Again, you're making straw men and trying to imply I'm saying he's ****. He's not, he's a really really good player and would be worth a place in the starting lineup of probably all bar 4 or 5 of the teams competing at the Euros. Sadly, England is one of those 4 or 5 teams, and the fact that he appears to be one of the first names of the team sheet is to the detriment of our performances and potentially a mistake that cost us dearly. Particularly given how woeful he was yesterday in the final (and whilst there are lies, damn lies and statistics, the numbers support this as well, BBC ratings have him as the worst player of all the 22 that started yesterday and in this case, the numbers are bang on the money).

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but the 'points' I see you making are mostly a subjective assessment of whether we were above or below par. 

I'm looking at a bigger picture: it's a young and evolving team with enormous potential to get better and better over the next few years. There will inevitably be some tweaks to the tactics and hopefully a slightly better balance between attack and defence.

But it's really strange to be looking at this as a failure or shortcoming. It's been really enjoyable and we should all be immensely proud of both the achievement and the way in which the players and manager have conducted themselves.

The reason it’s being looked at as a shortcoming is it was a massive opportunity. They don’t come around often. Other sides will have rebuilt by the next tournament too. 

[Well b back 3,186]

I think some need to put a bit of perspective on this. I wish I could find the thread but only a few years ago the FA stated we are going to put things right from top to bottom. The academy’s, the under age teams, the senior national team will all come under one banner, we have learnt from around the world. It was then stated under Southgate we would reach the Euro’s 20/20 semi final and win the World Cup in 2022. Since we have reached a Nations cup semi, the 2018 World Cup semis and a Euros final. Also worth mentioning the younger groups have won major tournaments as well. This plan has not just helped the national senior team, it has even helped the clubs, our young talent coming from younger football is sensational and finally England’s young talent can keep the ball and indeed have the extra wow factor.

Of course the FA were ridiculed and laughed at. This team will be around probably another 4 major tournaments, but constantly being added to by the next group of talent. The last golden generation won nothing, let’s be proud of this group and see what they can go on and achieve.

On a side note as we play a lot of the big clubs early on I wonder if any of you will feel it correct to boo Sancho, Rashford and Saka or even Sterling ?

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but the 'points' I see you making are mostly a subjective assessment of whether we were above or below par. 

I'm looking at a bigger picture: it's a young and evolving team with enormous potential to get better and better over the next few years. There will inevitably be some tweaks to the tactics and hopefully a slightly better balance between attack and defence.

But it's really strange to be looking at this as a failure or shortcoming. It's been really enjoyable and we should all be immensely proud of both the achievement and the way in which the players and manager have conducted themselves.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. That's what I'm doing. I'm looking at the individual results. You're sat there going, "semi-final and a final so ner, ner, ner". That's not the bigger picture, that's about as small as you could make the picture, as I attempted to show you with my reference to Millwall's 2004 FA Cup run.

[lake district canary 4,531]

A mistake imo not trying to change the game to counter Italy rather than what we did which was just try and contain them.  Italy changed their tactics and players earlier than us - pro-active management and positive decisions. 

As for bringing rashford and sancho on in the last two minutes (last few seconds in effect) no wonder they found it hard - not even properly warmed up.  Sancho would have been a better choice earlier in the match than Saka too imo.  Sterling was poor in the second half (imo) and why he and Grealish didn't take penalties is a mystery. 

Also, for all the apparent organisation we are supposed to have, the passing round of pieces of paper at the end looked amateurish to say the least.

Someone said you couldn't play Foden/Grealish/Sancho/Saka/Sterling/rashford in the same team. Well, you could play three of them and then sub them for the others and so mix it up a bit.  What we ended up with last night was a Sterling who looked to have mentally shot his bolt at half-time as he was not good in the second half on several levels and Grealish not until well into extra time. Five of our best players and hardly a look in.

Don't get me wrong, I thought England were excellent to start with, but Italy were more streetwise, their manager more proactive and positive in making tactical and player changes and ultimately by the end - including the penalties we were shown up by that. 

Mention for Pickford though, who has been criticised by many - me too on occasion. I thought he was brilliant throughout.

[king canary 7,577]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Again, you're making straw men and trying to imply I'm saying he's ****. He's not, he's a really really good player and would be worth a place in the starting lineup of probably all bar 4 or 5 of the teams competing at the Euros. Sadly, England is one of those 4 or 5 teams, and the fact that he appears to be one of the first names of the team sheet is to the detriment of our performances and potentially a mistake that cost us dearly. Particularly given how woeful he was yesterday in the final (and whilst there are lies, damn lies and statistics, the numbers support this as well, BBC ratings have him as the worst player of all the 22 that started yesterday and in this case, the numbers are bang on the money).

As I say, its agree to disagree at this point. I'm of the opinion that Grealish is hugely overhyped from an England perspective and I'd have Mount over him, no debate. 

[Petriix 2,834]

8 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And actually, you can judge which team was the better in a drawn fixture. And I think a team playing on their opponent's home turf and has almost double the possession and treble the amount of shots (either on target or off target) can reasonably claim that they were much better on the day and unlucky to have to resort to penalties to get the win.

Of course the team who fall behind in the 2nd minute are going to have more possession. That's almost an inevitable result of the psychology of the situation. The fact that we were so well organised that they resorted to a bunch of speculative long shots is not reflected in the statistics.

In the second half it was different. Italy adapted and were clearly better. But there was another momentum shift in extra time and there only looked like being one winner. Italy were lucky to get to penalties with all 11 men and they were pretty lucky to win the shoot out.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

A mistake imo not trying to change the game to counter Italy rather than what we did which was just try and contain them.  Italy changed their tactics and players earlier than us - pro-active management and positive decisions. 

As for bringing rashford and sancho on in the last two minutes (last few seconds in effect) no wonder they found it hard - not even properly warmed up.  Sancho would have been a better choice earlier in the match than Saka too imo.  Sterling was poor in the second half (imo) and why he and Grealish didn't take penalties is a mystery. 

Also, for all the apparent organisation we are supposed to have, the passing round of pieces of paper at the end looked amateurish to say the least.

Someone said you couldn't play Foden/Grealish/Sancho/Saka/Sterling/rashford in the same team. Well, you could play three of them and then sub them for the others and so mix it up a bit.  What we ended up with last night was a Sterling who looked to have mentally shot his bolt at half-time as he was not good in the second half on several levels and Grealish not until well into extra time. Five of our best players and hardly a look in.

Don't get me wrong, I thought England were excellent to start with, but Italy were more streetwise, their manager more proactive and positive in making tactical and player changes and ultimately by the end - including the penalties we were shown up by that. 

Mention for Pickford though, who has been criticised by many - me too on occasion. I thought he was brilliant throughout.

Sounds like you did watch it then Lakeyo, did you miss/ conveniently  ignore  the booing?

[Jim Smith 2,314]

3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I think some need to put a bit of perspective on this. I wish I could find the thread but only a few years ago the FA stated we are going to put things right from top to bottom. The academy’s, the under age teams, the senior national team will all come under one banner, we have learnt from around the world. It was then stated under Southgate we would reach the Euro’s 20/20 semi final and win the World Cup in 2022. Since we have reached a Nations cup semi, the 2018 World Cup semis and a Euros final. Also worth mentioning the younger groups have won major tournaments as well. This plan has not just helped the national senior team, it has even helped the clubs, our young talent coming from younger football is sensational and finally England’s young talent can keep the ball and indeed have the extra wow factor.

Of course the FA were ridiculed and laughed at. This team will be around probably another 4 major tournaments, but constantly being added to by the next group of talent. The last golden generation won nothing, let’s be proud of this group and see what they can go on and achieve.

On a side note as we play a lot of the big clubs early on I wonder if any of you will feel it correct to boo Sancho, Rashford and Saka or even Sterling ?

Why would anyone boo them? Not their fault other than perhaps the stupid run up factor with a Rashford. Im hopeful a few of the top players might not be playing in those first two games to be honest. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Of course the team who fall behind in the 2nd minute are going to have more possession. That's almost an inevitable result of the psychology of the situation. The fact that we were so well organised that they resorted to a bunch of speculative long shots is not reflected in the statistics.

In the second half it was different. Italy adapted and were clearly better. But there was another momentum shift in extra time and there only looked like being one winner. Italy were lucky to get to penalties with all 11 men and they were pretty lucky to win the shoot out.

Did you say something about balance earlier!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Petriix 2,834]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

You're not looking at the bigger picture. That's what I'm doing. I'm looking at the individual results. You're sat there going, "semi-final and a final so ner, ner, ner". That's not the bigger picture, that's about as small as you could make the picture, as I attempted to show you with my reference to Millwall's 2004 FA Cup run.

I don't think you quite understand the phrase 'bigger picture'. It's about looking at it with a wider lense (to expand the metaphor). You look at the whole thing from further away so less emphasis on the details and more emphasis on the wider context.

Ultimately I think it comes down to expectations. I guess you let yours get the better of you in the build-up to the game and now you feel let down. That feeling will pass. I hope you're able, in the future, to look back on this with a bit more appreciation for just how good it was. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I don't think you quite understand the phrase 'bigger picture'. It's about looking at it with a wider lense (to expand the metaphor). You look at the whole thing from further away so less emphasis on the details and more emphasis on the wider context.

Ultimately I think it comes down to expectations. I guess you let yours get the better of you in the build-up to the game and now you feel let down. That feeling will pass. I hope you're able, in the future, to look back on this with a bit more appreciation for just how good it was. 

I am able to. Just like Millwall fans will look back fondly on the 2004 FA Cup Final. I'm just able to do it with the awareness that there was more than a little good fortune to the runs to the semis and final in 2018 and this year respectively and that when you're dealt a pair of aces AND a favourable flop, you don't need to be that good a player to win the hand.

We've had pocket pictures the last two tournaments. At some point we'll be dealt a 2 and 7, and we'll need a really good manager to make something out of that. And unfortunately, that isn't Southgate.

So I'm glad you are able to appreciate how good it was, because unless we're dealt a route like Panama, Tunisia, Colombia, Sweden or Scotland, Croatia, Czech Rep, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark again in Qatar, we won't be having as good a time of it as we have this year.

Edited July 12, 2021 by canarydan23

[Well b back 3,186]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

A mistake imo not trying to change the game to counter Italy rather than what we did which was just try and contain them.  Italy changed their tactics and players earlier than us - pro-active management and positive decisions. 

As for bringing rashford and sancho on in the last two minutes (last few seconds in effect) no wonder they found it hard - not even properly warmed up.  Sancho would have been a better choice earlier in the match than Saka too imo.  Sterling was poor in the second half (imo) and why he and Grealish didn't take penalties is a mystery. 

Also, for all the apparent organisation we are supposed to have, the passing round of pieces of paper at the end looked amateurish to say the least.

Someone said you couldn't play Foden/Grealish/Sancho/Saka/Sterling/rashford in the same team. Well, you could play three of them and then sub them for the others and so mix it up a bit.  What we ended up with last night was a Sterling who looked to have mentally shot his bolt at half-time as he was not good in the second half on several levels and Grealish not until well into extra time. Five of our best players and hardly a look in.

Don't get me wrong, I thought England were excellent to start with, but Italy were more streetwise, their manager more proactive and positive in making tactical and player changes and ultimately by the end - including the penalties we were shown up by that. 

Mention for Pickford though, who has been criticised by many - me too on occasion. I thought he was brilliant throughout.

Your constant criticism of Sterling over 3 or so years really is showing you really don’t like the guy. You have openly admitted you didn’t watch any games, had we have won Sterling would have been named player of the tournament.

Southgate explained the penalties. They used the same process as when shootouts were won in the World Cup. Constantly taking penalties in training ( there is a story that Saka never misses ) confidence and belief, and how you get on in pressure penalties for your club. Sterling has missed several at club level in pressure situations and I can never recall Grealish taking a penalty.

[king canary 7,577]

2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Your constant criticism of Sterling over 3 or so years really is showing you really don’t like the guy. You have openly admitted you didn’t watch any games, had we have won Sterling would have been named player of the tournament.

Its a theme. He has the same issue with Cantwell but will never admit it.

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

Another thing about the penalties that seems to have been missed is that Donnarumma saved two and the third was literally three inches off going in. It's not as if it got launched over the bar like Bale did against Turkey (has that landed yet?)

Criticising players there when the opposition goalie's come up with the goods strikes me as harsh.

[dylanisabaddog 4,858]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

🤣

It's the best England squad we've had for years

Absolute nonsense. If I was to pick a team of the tournament I doubt any English players would be in it. The main reason England has done well at the last two tournaments is because of extraordinary luck of the draw. 

You seem to suffer delusions of grandeur like half the rest of the country. England has reached two finals in history and apart from one match all the games in those tournaments were played at Wembley. Last night by contrast was Italy's tenth final. 

The last two tournaments have seen England over perform, aided hugely by the draw. The reality is that there are probably 6 teams in the world that are better at the moment. The first time we play one of those teams in the next World Cup we'll lose. That's not Southgate's fault they just have better players than us, like Italy did last night. 

[king canary 7,577]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Another thing about the penalties that seems to have been missed is that Donnarumma saved two and the third was literally three inches off going in. It's not as if it got launched over the bar like Bale did against Turkey (has that landed yet?)

Criticising players there when the opposition goalie's come up with the goods strikes me as harsh.

The Saka penalty was poor, it was a pretty easy save. But fundamentally I don't think any player deserves criticism for missing a penalty in basically the most high pressure environment going.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Just now, king canary said:

Its a theme. He has the same issue with Cantwell but will never admit it.

Get lost. If you had been paying attention you will see that in recent months i have had nothing but praise for Cantwell and that he has matured into a much more effective and potent player. If you are going to make accusations like that, at least get your facts right.

[king canary 7,577]

Just now, dylanisabaddog said:

Absolute nonsense. If I was to pick a team of the tournament I doubt any English players would be in it. The main reason England has done well at the last two tournaments is because of extraordinary luck of the draw. 

 

So none of the defenders from a team that conceded two goals all tournament? ****.

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

The Saka penalty was poor, it was a pretty easy save. But fundamentally I don't think any player deserves criticism for missing a penalty in basically the most high pressure environment going.

He could have put a bit more oomph on it, but it's only an easy save if the keeper goes the right way.

[WD40 720]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Another thing about the penalties that seems to have been missed is that Donnarumma saved two and the third was literally three inches off going in. It's not as if it got launched over the bar like Bale did against Turkey (has that landed yet?)

Criticising players there when the opposition goalie's come up with the goods strikes me as harsh.

3/5 penalties missed in a major final is poor by any measure. They were not good penalties. 1. Hit the target, 2. Put it in a place that makes the keeper work.

But Southgate has to take some criticism there loading those young players with as much pressure as is possible. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, dylanisabaddog said:

If I was to pick a team of the tournament I doubt any English players would be in it.

That's because you're picking it.

If you cannot see that this England squad is comfortably one of the most talented squads we've had going into a major tournament since arguably 2002, maybe 2006 at a push, then I really don't know what to say to you.

[king canary 7,577]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

That's because you're picking it.

If you cannot see that this England squad is comfortably one of the most talented squads we've had going into a major tournament since arguably 2002, maybe 2006 at a push, then I really don't know what to say to you.

The hope is in 2022 and 2024 players like Foden, Saka, Rice have taken a further step forward and those are the most talented squads we've had. However my concern is having come some close this time the hype and pressure on them is going to be too much.

[dylanisabaddog 4,858]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

So none of the defenders from a team that conceded two goals all tournament? ****.

Do you think it's possible that they only conceded two goals because of the luck of the draw? The average FIFA ranking of the teams England played before last night was more than 20!

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

2 minutes ago, WD40 said:

3/5 penalties missed in a major final is poor by any measure. They were not good penalties. 1. Hit the target, 2. Put it in a place that makes the keeper work.

But Southgate has to take some criticism there loading those young players with as much pressure as is possible. 

By definition, if you hit the target with a penalty and it's saved, you made the keeper work.

There was one penalty shootout, I think it was Italy / Germany in Euro 2016, where the other team scored a couple simply going dead straight as they twigged Neuer in the German goal went early every time.

[Well b back 3,186]

20 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Why would anyone boo them? Not their fault other than perhaps the stupid run up factor with a Rashford. Im hopeful a few of the top players might not be playing in those first two games to be honest. 

Lol

Clearly you have missed the horrendous racial abuse give on social media to Saka, Sancho and Rashford overnight.

I am old enough to remember Beckham and Rooney’s season around the grounds after they were blamed, boos ringing out around all grounds

[WD40 720]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

By definition, if you hit the target with a penalty and it's saved, you made the keeper work.

There was one penalty shootout, I think it was Italy / Germany in Euro 2016, where the other team scored a couple simply going dead straight as they twigged Neuer in the German goal went early every time.

Come on lad. Going mid height, and no where near the corner is not making the keeper work in a penalty shootout. 

[Well b back 3,186]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

So none of the defenders from a team that conceded two goals all tournament? ****.

Or Raheem Sterling.