Hull in deep, deep trouble

[BigFish 1,986]

6 hours ago, chicken said:

Lets take a look at the team:

Pickford - Sunderland whilst in the PL, but 6 loans to EFL teams.
Walker - Shef Utd, not PL.
Maguire - Shef Utd, not PL.
Stones - Barnsley, not PL.
Trippier - Man City, with loans to EFL.
Shaw - Southampton, not always in the PL during that time though.
Philips - Leeds, not PL.
Rice - Chelsea/West Ham, PL.
Mount - Chelsea, with loan to Derby in EFL.
Raheem Stirling did not come purely through a PL academy. He was at the QPR academy when scouted by Liverpool. 
Kane - Arsenal/Watford/Spurs with loans to 2 EFL clubs.

I think that pretty much proves my point. There is only one player that came through a PL academy and who wasn't loaned out to EFL clubs to further their development and ready them for first team contention.

What happens with not EFL? Where do those players cut their teeth? Where do the others come from without earning their merit coming through the ranks at lower league clubs?

Not really sure that it does prove your point. It looks like ALL the players were with the EPL Elite Players Performance Plan system at a Cat 1 or Cat 2 academy, largely from the age of 8. No exception, none could really be said to have come through the grass roots or climbed the pyramid. There was some element of player farming and loans but you don't need 92 professional clubs for that. In Europe B teams compete in the lower Leagues and pretty much have the same function. My point was it is a different game.

[CirclePoint 200]

18 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

That's true but then Arsenal have lost an absolute fortune, and no other clubs are going to bail them out. If Tesco ended up in trouble, they wouldn't expect Morrisons to help them out, would they?

I sometimes just think it's a little easy to blame the greedy PL. The majority of clubs outside the PL that get themselves in trouble do so by chasing the PL dream or through the appointment of terrible owners.

 

This.

It seems the model of capitalism is lost on some. The EPL is not a socialist system.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

1 hour ago, CirclePoint said:

This.

It seems the model of capitalism is lost on some. The EPL is not a socialist system.

I haven't been able to source more up to date figures but the Premier League simply gave away more than £100m to the EFL in 2018/19, not including parachute payments etc.

Easy to forget that is something which the PL is not obligated to do by any means. 

[chicken 2,604]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

Not really sure that it does prove your point. It looks like ALL the players were with the EPL Elite Players Performance Plan system at a Cat 1 or Cat 2 academy, largely from the age of 8. No exception, none could really be said to have come through the grass roots or climbed the pyramid. There was some element of player farming and loans but you don't need 92 professional clubs for that. In Europe B teams compete in the lower Leagues and pretty much have the same function. My point was it is a different game.

That's just changing the goalposts.

Not only that, but there is another issue: https://www.premierleague.com/youth/EPPP

Quote

Introduced in 2012 

So has nothing to do with Walker, Maguire, Stones, Trippier, Stirling or Kane.

The Europe B teams do not provide the same exposure or function really. They flesh out leagues, but the issue is for each one of those teams that exist, there is one less professional team. This tends to make those nations lower leagues a bit like the EFL Trophy. Which means sometimes they are playing other B teams and sometimes they are playing other clubs who have only one team etc.

It's utter tosh. And the system we have here is far, far better. But it is a system that needs respecting. And it is worth noting that originally, the argument for the riches that the PL would generate would "trickle down", that fun old term, to the EFL. In reality, player fees in the PL have risen to £80m+ and wages of over £100k pw are not unheard of. In fact, it is well known some players are on more than double that.

Yet how much have the wages and fees changed the further down the tiers you go? Not even remotely the same.

That's the point of the EPPP... a lot of the money went to foreign leagues due to players being brought in from abroad. Has the EPPP changed that? Or the homegrown rule? Or the U23's rather than reserves or the U21 rules and squad size limit? No. Not really. It's just seen a sharp rise in youngsters being imported so they will count as homegrown.

[chicken 2,604]

7 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

I haven't been able to source more up to date figures but the Premier League simply gave away more than £100m to the EFL in 2018/19, not including parachute payments etc.

Easy to forget that is something which the PL is not obligated to do by any means. 

I mean it is obligated to as it signed up to do them. And it does it because the league itself would quickly become uncompetitive without them.

Teams would cut their cloth and take fewer risks or go all in and get relegated and go bust teaching other clubs not to do the same thing. In reality that would leave about 12/10 sides being risk averse in case they were relegated. They wouldn't gamble as big fees on players nor would they pay out such big wages.

The result would be that better players would go elsewhere for the more lucrative contracts and essentially lead to a lower level of player quality in the premier league. It would also further cement the very well established teams as untouchable.

So whilst they don't have to agree to the terms of an agreement that obligates them to commit to parachute payments, don't be fooled into thinking that it is genuinely to just help out those poor relegated clubs. There is a much wider impact to them.

[BigFish 1,986]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

That's just changing the goalposts.

Not at all, you posted There is no doubt that the premier league could survive if the EFL ceased to exist. However, the level and quality of the game would be seriously compromised. This is untrue, Elite football now has nothing to do with the grass roots. It is pretty much a closed system when it comes to player quality. Outside the EPPP clubs there is no overlap, there is no evidence of the grass roots feeding the Elite game beyond marketing and culture. They are different games. That is not to say the EFL has no value, it is just not the point you made.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

9 minutes ago, chicken said:

I mean it is obligated to as it signed up to do them. And it does it because the league itself would quickly become uncompetitive without them.

Teams would cut their cloth and take fewer risks or go all in and get relegated and go bust teaching other clubs not to do the same thing. In reality that would leave about 12/10 sides being risk averse in case they were relegated. They wouldn't gamble as big fees on players nor would they pay out such big wages.

The result would be that better players would go elsewhere for the more lucrative contracts and essentially lead to a lower level of player quality in the premier league. It would also further cement the very well established teams as untouchable.

So whilst they don't have to agree to the terms of an agreement that obligates them to commit to parachute payments, don't be fooled into thinking that it is genuinely to just help out those poor relegated clubs. There is a much wider impact to them.

I'm certainly not arguing that the PL are great philanthropists. But whatever their reasons, they do give a significant amount of money to the EFL every season, most of which is spent on wages and fees by Championship clubs. 

[chicken 2,604]

18 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Not at all, you posted There is no doubt that the premier league could survive if the EFL ceased to exist. However, the level and quality of the game would be seriously compromised. This is untrue, Elite football now has nothing to do with the grass roots. It is pretty much a closed system when it comes to player quality. Outside the EPPP clubs there is no overlap, there is no evidence of the grass roots feeding the Elite game beyond marketing and culture. They are different games. That is not to say the EFL has no value, it is just not the point you made.

I used England as an example of where players had come from and why without the lower league clubs those players wouldn't have gotten their break.

That is still accurate. EPPP or not, you still need clubs in those areas picking out players. Vardy is a glaring example. And he isn't alone. I just used the England team as an example of where players are from. The EPPP - doesn't mean the Cat1 and 2 academies are under the control of the EPL. Its a system of feeding money into grass roots. But to get the money, the clubs that have the academies have to meet criteria to be accredited Cat 1 or 2 status.

Those players are not then premier league owned or even coached.

Mings is another example of a player that has come from much lower down. There are plenty of them. Many wouldn't have the route to premier league football if the EFL ceased to exist, even if just as a professional system. It's full of them and every time a team is promoted to the EPL that number is increased.

All of the evidence that is there to be assessed says that the English game will suffer immeasurably if the EFL were to cease to exist or provide the means of which to help players find a way to the EPL through the tiers. Conor Hourihane is another example. He dropped down to League 2 with Plymouth Argyle to get regular game time and then slowly worked his way up the tiers to promotion to the EPL with Villa, albeit he only had one season in the top flight with them before being sent on loan to the Championship. 

[BigFish 1,986]

13 hours ago, chicken said:

I used England as an example of where players had come from and why without the lower league clubs those players wouldn't have gotten their break.

That is still accurate. EPPP or not, you still need clubs in those areas picking out players. Vardy is a glaring example. And he isn't alone. I just used the England team as an example of where players are from. The EPPP - doesn't mean the Cat1 and 2 academies are under the control of the EPL. Its a system of feeding money into grass roots. But to get the money, the clubs that have the academies have to meet criteria to be accredited Cat 1 or 2 status.

Those players are not then premier league owned or even coached.

Mings is another example of a player that has come from much lower down. There are plenty of them. Many wouldn't have the route to premier league football if the EFL ceased to exist, even if just as a professional system. It's full of them and every time a team is promoted to the EPL that number is increased.

All of the evidence that is there to be assessed says that the English game will suffer immeasurably if the EFL were to cease to exist or provide the means of which to help players find a way to the EPL through the tiers. Conor Hourihane is another example. He dropped down to League 2 with Plymouth Argyle to get regular game time and then slowly worked his way up the tiers to promotion to the EPL with Villa, albeit he only had one season in the top flight with them before being sent on loan to the Championship. 

Elite football is about more than the EPL, the current EPPP system includes clubs at Cat 1 and 2 that are outside the top tier and equally the top tier include clubs outside the system, most notably Brentford. NONE of the England statting 11 come from clubs outside the system though so it is clearly wrong to assert they wouldn't have got their breaks but for the grassroots clubs. Vardy is an exception and I am surprised you didn't mention him before but he is 34 so his career breakthrough is an anachronism and even then he played his junior football at Sheff Weds (now Cat 2). It is certainly not a system of feeding money to the grass roots. Membership is ruiniously expensive and transfer fees are capped. Cat 1 clubs even have the right to poach young players from lower ranked clubs. Mings spent 8 years at Southampton (now Cat 1) and then had a football scholarship at an expensive public school. Hourihan was at Sunderland (now Cat 1). Admittedly, they dropped out of the Elite system and used the grassroots to fight their way back but this is different from asserting that they developed outside a increasingly segregated elite. Don't get me wrong, I am not argueing that the EFL is without merit, just that merit is increasingly disconnected from from the Elite game.

[chicken 2,604]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Elite football is about more than the EPL, the current EPPP system includes clubs at Cat 1 and 2 that are outside the top tier and equally the top tier include clubs outside the system, most notably Brentford. NONE of the England statting 11 come from clubs outside the system though so it is clearly wrong to assert they wouldn't have got their breaks but for the grassroots clubs. Vardy is an exception and I am surprised you didn't mention him before but he is 34 so his career breakthrough is an anachronism and even then he played his junior football at Sheff Weds (now Cat 2). It is certainly not a system of feeding money to the grass roots. Membership is ruiniously expensive and transfer fees are capped. Cat 1 clubs even have the right to poach young players from lower ranked clubs. Mings spent 8 years at Southampton (now Cat 1) and then had a football scholarship at an expensive public school. Hourihan was at Sunderland (now Cat 1). Admittedly, they dropped out of the Elite system and used the grassroots to fight their way back but this is different from asserting that they developed outside a increasingly segregated elite. Don't get me wrong, I am not argueing that the EFL is without merit, just that merit is increasingly disconnected from from the Elite game.

Again, the Elite football system and EPPP didn't start until 2012. 9 years ago. Every player over 25 was unlikely to have really benefitted from it as such so it's null and void in terms of the examples given.

But also, my point still remains, you haven't countered it. Vardy was rejected and rebuilt his career from Non-league. There are quite a number of those players. Grant Holt is another. The fact they attended a Cat 1 or 2 means nothing. In reality, without the footballing pyramid in place, without tiers of professional football, many would have been forced to give up the game to focus on earning a wage they can live off.

Even if they stuck at it, it would be semi-pro at best meaning that they trained less frequently, had to find a job alongside it. And you only need to look at the FA and League cups to see the vast differences between levels in that regard. It would be utterly devastating to the English game. This are no "ifs" or "buts" about it.

[BigFish 1,986]

12 minutes ago, chicken said:

Again, the Elite football system and EPPP didn't start until 2012. 9 years ago. Every player over 25 was unlikely to have really benefitted from it as such so it's null and void in terms of the examples given.

But also, my point still remains, you haven't countered it. Vardy was rejected and rebuilt his career from Non-league. There are quite a number of those players. Grant Holt is another. The fact they attended a Cat 1 or 2 means nothing. In reality, without the footballing pyramid in place, without tiers of professional football, many would have been forced to give up the game to focus on earning a wage they can live off.

Even if they stuck at it, it would be semi-pro at best meaning that they trained less frequently, had to find a job alongside it. And you only need to look at the FA and League cups to see the vast differences between levels in that regard. It would be utterly devastating to the English game. This are no "ifs" or "buts" about it.

Vardy and Holt are relics of a bygone age, they prove nothing because that world has gone and it is not coming back. The game has been progressing in this direction since at least 1992 and EPPP is just the latest version.  It is a system developed solely because the grassroots singularly failed to develop players with the technical ability to allow England to compete at international level. It is beyond imagination that an England player would come from the grass roots now without spending a significant or 100% period within the system. There may be players who use the grass roots as a second chance, but they are already honed within the system. In Elite development terms the impact of the grassroots is now negligable, and as a result the technique of the players has greatly increased.

[K Lo 221]

On 08/07/2021 at 21:07, Mr Angry said:

If I've read that article right, Hull aren't in "deep, deep trouble" and have been able to reject bids for players since they were promoted.

Yes, I can't see how that article can be construed as the club being in "deep, deep, trouble'. I think the fans' dislike of their owner is a bigger problem.