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cambridgeshire canary

Hull in deep, deep trouble

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2 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

A number of clubs are currently under a transfer embargo, including Hull

This could get messy in a year or two, maybe less.  Its gonna be survival of the fittest, and we're  in decent shape  thankfully.  

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This is where premier league should give efl clubs money and not expect it back. Ok everyone's lost out in the awful pandemic but all the TV money that gets thrown about makes the richer, richer and see lesser clubs struggle and even some go out of business. Look at Bury. Such a shame the premier league is so greedy.

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If I've read that article right, Hull aren't in "deep, deep trouble" and have been able to reject bids for players since they were promoted.

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13 minutes ago, Ward 3 said:

This is where premier league should give efl clubs money and not expect it back. Ok everyone's lost out in the awful pandemic but all the TV money that gets thrown about makes the richer, richer and see lesser clubs struggle and even some go out of business. Look at Bury. Such a shame the premier league is so greedy.

Exactly this - but alas it wont happen. 

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20 minutes ago, Ward 3 said:

This is where premier league should give efl clubs money and not expect it back.

On the contrary unfortunately. Premier League clubs are looking to swipe lower leagues talented players at a discounted rate. 

They aren't looking to help anybody out. They're thinking how can this work for us.

Sadly this philosophy will not change.

The attempt at a European super League during a pandemic exposes the mindset. 

This isn't going away ever. Have to live with it and survive, those that can.

 

Edited by Chelm Canary
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I think the article is just telling supporters what is going on and sounds more positive than negative.

Edited by keelansgrandad
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3 hours ago, FenwayFrank said:

A number of clubs are currently under a transfer embargo, including Hull

That's not what the statement says.

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Assuming Hugill leaves and Aarons makes his expected move do you think we could raid them for Malik Wilks? 

Exactly the type of player we need, strong, fast, technically good and has a decent scoring record for his age. I'd prefer him over Armstrong to be honest . I think if Hull were financially stable they would probably ask at least 15m but I wonder if we could tempt them we a smaller offer but throw in more upfront. Assuming we get 30m for Aarons and 2m for Hugill I don't think it would be unreasonable for us to spend a bit to improve our striking options. 

I have no idea if we would even be interested, but I really like him as a player

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4 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Exactly this - but alas it wont happen. 

 

5 hours ago, Ward 3 said:

This is where premier league should give efl clubs money and not expect it back. Ok everyone's lost out in the awful pandemic but all the TV money that gets thrown about makes the richer, richer and see lesser clubs struggle and even some go out of business. Look at Bury. Such a shame the premier league is so greedy.

I somewhat disagree. The PL doesn't have to give anything of the money which it has negotiated with broadcasters etc. It does give a significant amount of money to the EFL in solidarity payments, most of which is squandered by Championship clubs in an effort to get promotion.

If I was the PL and saw that those payments essentially go on player purchases and wages, I'd be pretty annoyed about it, and that's exactly what happens to most of the money that the PL basically donates to EFL clubs.

And per the article, it is an interest free loan from PL/EFL that has saved Hull from a fire sale.

If clubs ran themselves the way NCFC now does, they wouldn't need such loans to get them out of trouble. That's perhaps simplistic because it takes certainly 3 or 4 years minimum to get an academy off the ground, but many of these clubs are spending well beyond their means and I don't see why the PL should have to come in and bail them out, especially with clubs like Hull who were supposedly bought by 'rich foreign investors' of the kind that some on this forum would like to see installed at NCFC.

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5 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

 

I somewhat disagree. The PL doesn't have to give anything of the money which it has negotiated with broadcasters etc. It does give a significant amount of money to the EFL in solidarity payments, most of which is squandered by Championship clubs in an effort to get promotion.

If I was the PL and saw that those payments essentially go on player purchases and wages, I'd be pretty annoyed about it, and that's exactly what happens to most of the money that the PL basically donates to EFL clubs.

And per the article, it is an interest free loan from PL/EFL that has saved Hull from a fire sale.

If clubs ran themselves the way NCFC now does, they wouldn't need such loans to get them out of trouble. That's perhaps simplistic because it takes certainly 3 or 4 years minimum to get an academy off the ground, but many of these clubs are spending well beyond their means and I don't see why the PL should have to come in and bail them out, especially with clubs like Hull who were supposedly bought by 'rich foreign investors' of the kind that some on this forum would like to see installed at NCFC.

I'm not saying they have to but would be the decent thing to do. Think of the respect and appreciation they would get. 

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11 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Oh dear oh dear

Never a good idea to belittle other clubs in difficult situations.

Having lost £20m to the pandemic ourselves, it was a good time to get promoted to mitigate it. Had we remained in the Championship we would likely have lost our star players and been replacing them with much bigger gambles.

I also have no ill feeling towards Hull and can only sympathise with fans of such clubs who could face bankruptcy and going out of existence. 

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10 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

 

I somewhat disagree. The PL doesn't have to give anything of the money which it has negotiated with broadcasters etc. It does give a significant amount of money to the EFL in solidarity payments, most of which is squandered by Championship clubs in an effort to get promotion.

If I was the PL and saw that those payments essentially go on player purchases and wages, I'd be pretty annoyed about it, and that's exactly what happens to most of the money that the PL basically donates to EFL clubs.

And per the article, it is an interest free loan from PL/EFL that has saved Hull from a fire sale.

If clubs ran themselves the way NCFC now does, they wouldn't need such loans to get them out of trouble. That's perhaps simplistic because it takes certainly 3 or 4 years minimum to get an academy off the ground, but many of these clubs are spending well beyond their means and I don't see why the PL should have to come in and bail them out, especially with clubs like Hull who were supposedly bought by 'rich foreign investors' of the kind that some on this forum would like to see installed at NCFC.

The fact that the PL package only gave a Club like Cambridge United two thirds or so of its gate money is a disgrace and typical of PL greed.

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11 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

If clubs ran themselves the way NCFC now does, they wouldn't need such loans to get them out of trouble. That's perhaps simplistic because it takes certainly 3 or 4 years minimum to get an academy off the ground, but many of these clubs are spending well beyond their means and I don't see why the PL should have to come in and bail them out, especially with clubs like Hull who were supposedly bought by 'rich foreign investors' of the kind that some on this forum would like to see installed at NCFC.

Even then a self funding Championship team would have struggled in these circumstances.

Any business where you suddenly take away a major revenue source with no replacement is going to struggle. COVID also killed off the lower league transfer markets meaning the most obvious and quick way to get some money back is suddenly much more difficult and you have a recipe for disaster.

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On 09/07/2021 at 13:34, king canary said:

Even then a self funding Championship team would have struggled in these circumstances.

Any business where you suddenly take away a major revenue source with no replacement is going to struggle. COVID also killed off the lower league transfer markets meaning the most obvious and quick way to get some money back is suddenly much more difficult and you have a recipe for disaster.

That's true but then Arsenal have lost an absolute fortune, and no other clubs are going to bail them out. If Tesco ended up in trouble, they wouldn't expect Morrisons to help them out, would they?

I sometimes just think it's a little easy to blame the greedy PL. The majority of clubs outside the PL that get themselves in trouble do so by chasing the PL dream or through the appointment of terrible owners.

 

Edited by Beefy is a legend

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2 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

That's true but then Arsenal have lost an absolute fortune, and no other clubs are going to bail them out. If Tesco ended up in trouble, they wouldn't expect Morrisons to help them out, would they?

I sometimes just think it's a little easy to blame the greedy PL. The majority of clubs outside the PL that get themselves in trouble do so by chasing the PL dream or through the appointment of terrible owners.

None of that is the fans fault though is it? And it's the fans game and the fans clubs. Especially at a lower level. It's not good enough to just dust off your hands and say "none of our problem" not when these "owners" are passing the fit and proper tests.

On recent evidence  - see Wigan - the fit and proper tests are worthless.

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1 minute ago, chicken said:

None of that is the fans fault though is it? And it's the fans game and the fans clubs. Especially at a lower level. It's not good enough to just dust off your hands and say "none of our problem" not when these "owners" are passing the fit and proper tests.

On recent evidence  - see Wigan - the fit and proper tests are worthless.

But it isn't clubs like Arsenal, Man Utd etc whose job it is to look after Hull City supporters, is it? And even though it isn't, they've still helped to provide Hull with an interest free loan to keep them out of the mire. Maybe they could do more, but they certainly do plenty compared with any other industries where big businesses wouldn't dream of helping out smaller rivals.

Totally agree with you on fit and proper persons - that's one for the EFL itself to address.

 

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On 08/07/2021 at 20:58, Ward 3 said:

This is where premier league should give efl clubs money and not expect it back

Why should Premier League clubs bail out clubs like Derby who throw money at fancy managers like Lampard, Cocu and Rooney instead of just hiring within their means and giving a job to Simon Grayson or something.

They've got a player they paid £8m for two years ago, our record transfer isn't much higher... and we should give them a cash gift? 

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43 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

But it isn't clubs like Arsenal, Man Utd etc whose job it is to look after Hull City supporters, is it? And even though it isn't, they've still helped to provide Hull with an interest free loan to keep them out of the mire. Maybe they could do more, but they certainly do plenty compared with any other industries where big businesses wouldn't dream of helping out smaller rivals.

Totally agree with you on fit and proper persons - that's one for the EFL itself to address.

Football is a very different industry. Rather than destroying the football league through over aggressive takeovers and buying up all the popular products, football is a system.

There is no doubt that the premier league could survive if the EFL ceased to exist. However, the level and quality of the game would be seriously compromised.

Despite all of the money, premier league teams still need the talent grown at the lower levels. We've seen it elsewhere, but Vardy didn't come through the ranks of a premier league club academy. Kyle Walker didn't either. There are a great deal of players in the premier league who at the very least were blooded at a lower level, either on loan or sold to a lower level only to return having had more of a chance to develop.

Not only that, those players who don't quite make the grade are sold to lower league clubs, often loaned a few times first as well - which in it's own right is quite a lucrative business.

It isn't about the premier league clubs bailing out the clubs that get it wrong, it's about them ensuring the sport retains integrity.

The point you make about the fit and proper persons procedure could equally be said of clubs overspending and going to the wall. wage caps and tighter restrictions on transfers - such as how some clubs get around FFP, would massively aid that.

Been obvious for ages that footy is broken and needs a complete top down shake up, but it'll never happen. No one dare's interfere with such a cash-cow. 

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On 08/07/2021 at 20:58, Ward 3 said:

This is where premier league should give efl clubs money and not expect it back. Ok everyone's lost out in the awful pandemic but all the TV money that gets thrown about makes the richer, richer and see lesser clubs struggle and even some go out of business. Look at Bury. Such a shame the premier league is so greedy.

Not sure about this. Bury were appallingly run by a nutter. Certainly the fit and proper test should have stopped him taking them over, but why should better run or more successful clubs just bail them out, especially when there are other clubs lower down waiting to take their place.

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I’m firmly of the opinion no money should be given - maybe because I’m sitting here as a fan of a club who are exceptionally run in that dept (they are now anyway!) 

We have earned that right by running the club prudently over the last few years where Covid didn’t cause us as much of a headache as other clubs - as others have said why should say a derby receive a donation after over extending themselves? 

A lot of clubs over the last 25 years have gambled to try and reach the promised land and it is exactly that a gamble, you don’t get a second chance in roulette, why should you in football? 

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10 hours ago, chicken said:

There is no doubt that the premier league could survive if the EFL ceased to exist. However, the level and quality of the game would be seriously compromised.

Not sure this stands up to scrutiny anymore. Elite football exists in its own ecosystem, pretty much removed from what used to be called the grassroots. If you look at the England squad they all pretty much came through the academey system from an early age, many as young as 8. This has raised the level and quality of the Elite game. Those grass roots clubs are almost playing a different game. (Caveat: there are exceptions, but they are exceptions)

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3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Not sure this stands up to scrutiny anymore. Elite football exists in its own ecosystem, pretty much removed from what used to be called the grassroots. If you look at the England squad they all pretty much came through the academey system from an early age, many as young as 8. This has raised the level and quality of the Elite game. Those grass roots clubs are almost playing a different game. (Caveat: there are exceptions, but they are exceptions)

Yes, but a significant number of them went out on loan to clubs down the leagues to be get experience and aid their development. With weaker competition down the ladder they would not have the hardening they got.

 

I do realise that doesn't really include the grass roots and if a significant number of clubs going to the wall the football league would be restructured into probably 3 professional divisions (counting the PL) including some b/academy teams in the bottom one...

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1 minute ago, BigFish said:

Not sure this stands up to scrutiny anymore. Elite football exists in its own ecosystem, pretty much removed from what used to be called the grassroots. If you look at the England squad they all pretty much came through the academey system from an early age, many as young as 8. This has raised the level and quality of the Elite game. Those grass roots clubs are almost playing a different game. (Caveat: there are exceptions, but they are exceptions)

Lets take a look at the team:

Pickford - Sunderland whilst in the PL, but 6 loans to EFL teams.
Walker - Shef Utd, not PL.
Maguire - Shef Utd, not PL.
Stones - Barnsley, not PL.
Trippier - Man City, with loans to EFL.
Shaw - Southampton, not always in the PL during that time though.
Philips - Leeds, not PL.
Rice - Chelsea/West Ham, PL.
Mount - Chelsea, with loan to Derby in EFL.
Raheem Stirling did not come purely through a PL academy. He was at the QPR academy when scouted by Liverpool. 
Kane - Arsenal/Watford/Spurs with loans to 2 EFL clubs.

I think that pretty much proves my point. There is only one player that came through a PL academy and who wasn't loaned out to EFL clubs to further their development and ready them for first team contention.

What happens with not EFL? Where do those players cut their teeth? Where do the others come from without earning their merit coming through the ranks at lower league clubs?


 

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14 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I do realise that doesn't really include the grass roots and if a significant number of clubs going to the wall the football league would be restructured into probably 3 professional divisions (counting the PL) including some b/academy teams in the bottom one...

This is perhaps looking more and more likely. The sad thing is that it results in fewer professional clubs recruiting and training youth teams which essentially results in a smaller pool of youngsters coming through.

Not only that, but it saps money from football at a lower level as B teams can feature multi-million pound players bought by the wealth of a PL team. It works in some European nations because of the level of football in their lower leagues. English footy is very different. Not only that, what are gates going to be like Vs B teams? Very few, if any, away fans... 

Essentially it would be an end to English football as we know it. 

Edited by chicken

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15 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Why should Premier League clubs bail out clubs like Derby who throw money at fancy managers like Lampard, Cocu and Rooney instead of just hiring within their means and giving a job to Simon Grayson or something.

They've got a player they paid £8m for two years ago, our record transfer isn't much higher... and we should give them a cash gift? 

I see what you're saying and appreciate it. I'm just looking at it as a football family love/community. 

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16 hours ago, chicken said:

Football is a very different industry. Rather than destroying the football league through over aggressive takeovers and buying up all the popular products, football is a system.

There is no doubt that the premier league could survive if the EFL ceased to exist. However, the level and quality of the game would be seriously compromised.

Despite all of the money, premier league teams still need the talent grown at the lower levels. We've seen it elsewhere, but Vardy didn't come through the ranks of a premier league club academy. Kyle Walker didn't either. There are a great deal of players in the premier league who at the very least were blooded at a lower level, either on loan or sold to a lower level only to return having had more of a chance to develop.

Not only that, those players who don't quite make the grade are sold to lower league clubs, often loaned a few times first as well - which in it's own right is quite a lucrative business.

It isn't about the premier league clubs bailing out the clubs that get it wrong, it's about them ensuring the sport retains integrity.

The point you make about the fit and proper persons procedure could equally be said of clubs overspending and going to the wall. wage caps and tighter restrictions on transfers - such as how some clubs get around FFP, would massively aid that.

Been obvious for ages that footy is broken and needs a complete top down shake up, but it'll never happen. No one dare's interfere with such a cash-cow. 

I don't disagree and this is the reason why the PL is giving interest free loans to clubs like Hull. They would help out Huddersfield too if they needed it, even though Hudds don't even bother to run an academy these days.

But there is a limit to the assistance the PL can reasonably be expected to give - clubs like Arsenal have their own problems. And in the end, clubs have to manage their own individual affairs. The football family can, and does, help out other clubs when they are in trouble. But that help doesn't come from a bottomless pit of cash and is limited, and can never become a safety net so as to allow clubs to gamble on promotion without consequences if they fail. 

This is all why NCFC's self-funding approach is so laudable and why Covid hasn't affected us nearly as badly as it would have done say 4 years ago. 

 

 

 

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