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BigFish

Seems like the Tories don't want football to come home

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11 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

What exactly does kneeling before, bowing before, or indeed (in extreme cases) prostrating yourself before someone actually symbolize? It means you consider that person or institution in some way superior to yourself (e.g. God as the ultimate being or The Queen representing the UK).

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

They're not 'kneeling before' anything or anyone.

Gareth Southgate said the England team's actions were not in support of the Black Lives Matter organisation. He said: "We have got a situation where some people seem to think it is a political stand that they don't agree with. That is not the reason the players are doing it. We are supporting each other."

England defender Tyrone Mings said: "It's never been about supporting Black Lives Matter as an organisation. That was a cheap argument that people threw at the movement."

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11 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

What exactly does kneeling before, bowing before, or indeed (in extreme cases) prostrating yourself before someone actually symbolize? It means you consider that person or institution in some way superior to yourself (e.g. God as the ultimate being or The Queen representing the UK).

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

They're not 'kneeling before' anything or anyone.

Gareth Southgate said the England team's actions were not in support of the Black Lives Matter organisation. He said: "We have got a situation where some people seem to think it is a political stand that they don't agree with. That is not the reason the players are doing it. We are supporting each other."

England defender Tyrone Mings said: "It's never been about supporting Black Lives Matter as an organisation. That was a cheap argument that people threw at the movement."

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14 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

What exactly does kneeling before, bowing before, or indeed (in extreme cases) prostrating yourself before someone actually symbolize? It means you consider that person or institution in some way superior to yourself (e.g. God as the ultimate being or The Queen representing the UK).

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

They're not 'kneeling before' anything or anyone.

Gareth Southgate said the England team's actions were not in support of the Black Lives Matter organisation. He said: "We have got a situation where some people seem to think it is a political stand that they don't agree with. That is not the reason the players are doing it. We are supporting each other."

England defender Tyrone Mings said: "It's never been about supporting Black Lives Matter as an organisation. That was a cheap argument that people threw at the movement."

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29 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

What exactly does kneeling before, bowing before, or indeed (in extreme cases) prostrating yourself before someone actually symbolize? It means you consider that person or institution in some way superior to yourself (e.g. God as the ultimate being or The Queen representing the UK).

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

Oh dear! You obviously didn't watch the much ridiculed balls-up that Dominic Raab made of trying the idiotic "taking the knee is subservient" line of argument. All it takes is a few seconds on Google to disabuse yourself of your total misapprehension of the symbolism and significance behind taking the knee.

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22 hours ago, Too Bad said:

It's insulting because the vast majority of migrants to Western democracies are people of different races and religions who are fleeing real, actual bigotry and abuse, and are generally welcomed. But self-loathing pant wetters try to portray our civilization as cruel when it is the exact opposite. 

In other words, they should be grateful regardless of their treatment. Does that apply to descendants of those colonised who had no choice to be taken over and exploited, or shipped to another colony as cargo? Does it apply to those fleeing hideous regimes set up by western "democracies" to further geopolitical goals? Welcomed? Don't make me laugh.   

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

What exactly does kneeling before, bowing before, or indeed (in extreme cases) prostrating yourself before someone actually symbolize? It means you consider that person or institution in some way superior to yourself (e.g. God as the ultimate being or The Queen representing the UK).

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

Taking the knee means that you oppose racism. Isn’t that obvious, ron?

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30 minutes ago, Jerzy Krukowski said:

In other words, they should be grateful regardless of their treatment. Does that apply to descendants of those colonised who had no choice to be taken over and exploited, or shipped to another colony as cargo? Does it apply to those fleeing hideous regimes set up by western "democracies" to further geopolitical goals? Welcomed? Don't make me laugh.   

Indeed! Imagine being so stupid that you would say to an immigrant, "Ok, we invaded and colonised your country, then we stole its natural resources, and we also stole and enslaved a lot of its human beings. Indeed, we made ourselves a very wealthy nation by profiting from the theft of your natural and human resources. Now could you please show some gratitude that we have given you leave to stay in the UK. Unless of course you arrived on the Windrush (or are a descendant of someone who did) and we destroyed all your documentation which you now can't produce, so you can f*uck right off back to Bongo-Bongo land."

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

🥴

They are simply making a small gesture against racism. They are not Marxists nor do they support a career criminal: the attempts to try to portray their gesture in such a way is bizarre and one wonders at the motivation behind it.

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

What exactly does kneeling before, bowing before, or indeed (in extreme cases) prostrating yourself before someone actually symbolize? It means you consider that person or institution in some way superior to yourself (e.g. God as the ultimate being or The Queen representing the UK).

So who is meant to be the person or institution we should kneel before in this case? It appears to be a career criminal who became a victim & therefore, bizarrely, a hero. Insane.

 

2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

They're not 'kneeling before' anything or anyone.

Gareth Southgate said the England team's actions were not in support of the Black Lives Matter organisation. He said: "We have got a situation where some people seem to think it is a political stand that they don't agree with. That is not the reason the players are doing it. We are supporting each other."

England defender Tyrone Mings said: "It's never been about supporting Black Lives Matter as an organisation. That was a cheap argument that people threw at the movement."

@ron obvious in cheap argument shocker

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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! Imagine being so stupid that you would say to an immigrant, "Ok, we invaded and colonised your country, then we stole its natural resources, and we also stole and enslaved a lot of its human beings. Indeed, we made ourselves a very wealthy nation by profiting from the theft of your natural and human resources. Now could you please show some gratitude that we have given you leave to stay in the UK. Unless of course you arrived on the Windrush (or are a descendant of someone who did) and we destroyed all your documentation which you now can't produce, so you can f*uck right off back to Bongo-Bongo land."

Your self loathing is pathetic. To think England did nothing good for the world thru colonization is laughable. But it's also irrelevant to the emptiness today's fake woke millionaires kneeling before kickoff. What has all this kneeling accomplished? 😄 

2021 Western civilization frowns on racist practices. To beat ourselves up over racism is dumb. It's also patronizing. Why not focus on something that actually is a problem such as the breakdown of the nuclear family. That leads to far more death and violence than racism does. Declining birth rates is another huge problem. Illegal drug use. These are actual things that impact the nation whereas racism is rare and already highly publicized and virtual signalled. 

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Kneeling has been a sign of abasement throughout human history. Trying to change that because you want it to mean something different to suit an agenda is pure arrogance in itself. Mr. Southgate's or Mr. Mings' assertions won't alter anything.

The lack of self awareness on this forum is astonishing - or it would be if it hadn't become normalized through indoctrination.

To continually lump together people you disagree with as being part of a group holding a myriad of other views is itself prejudice - it would be like saying that all black people have the same criminal tendencies as George Floyd. It's lazy, careless childish & dangerous.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to refute opinions one by one, not just shout "you're a fascist!" at people with your fingers in your ears (rather in the manner of Rik Mayall in The Young Ones). Personally I find some people I really like hold opinions I totally disagree with - & vice versa. People are extraordinarily complicated & rushing to judge them is pure folly. 

If you want to stop racism do it on a personal level. Pretending that everyone else is a racist except me & my mates is counterproductive & just plain wrong.

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1 hour ago, Too Bad said:

Your self loathing is pathetic. To think England did nothing good for the world thru colonization is laughable. But it's also irrelevant to the emptiness today's fake woke millionaires kneeling before kickoff. What has all this kneeling accomplished? 😄 

2021 Western civilization frowns on racist practices. To beat ourselves up over racism is dumb. It's also patronizing. Why not focus on something that actually is a problem such as the breakdown of the nuclear family. That leads to far more death and violence than racism does. Declining birth rates is another huge problem. Illegal drug use. These are actual things that impact the nation whereas racism is rare and already highly publicized and virtual signalled. 

I'm quite happy to let your stupidity speak for itself. There really is no need to point out the absurdity of everything you have said. My only dilemma is which Harry Enfield character's voice one should choose to read your bigotry. I'm tossing a coin between the Old Gits and William Ulsterman. I think William Ulsterman wins out.

BTW, if the English football team taking the knee achieves nothing more than upsetting sad old right wing nut jobs like you and Tory bigots, then it will have been more than worth the effort.

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34 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Kneeling has been a sign of abasement throughout human history. Trying to change that because you want it to mean something different to suit an agenda is pure arrogance in itself. Mr. Southgate's or Mr. Mings' assertions won't alter anything.

The lack of self awareness on this forum is astonishing - or it would be if it hadn't become normalized through indoctrination.

To continually lump together people you disagree with as being part of a group holding a myriad of other views is itself prejudice - it would be like saying that all black people have the same criminal tendencies as George Floyd. It's lazy, careless childish & dangerous.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to refute opinions one by one, not just shout "you're a fascist!" at people with your fingers in your ears (rather in the manner of Rik Mayall in The Young Ones). Personally I find some people I really like hold opinions I totally disagree with - & vice versa. People are extraordinarily complicated & rushing to judge them is pure folly. 

If you want to stop racism do it on a personal level. Pretending that everyone else is a racist except me & my mates is counterproductive & just plain wrong.

Hahahahahah! You couldn't make it up! 

"The lack of self awareness on this forum is astonishing"

"To continually lump together people you disagree with as being part of a group holding a myriad of other views is itself prejudice"

Is this meant to be irony or just plain stupidity?

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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Hahahahahah! You couldn't make it up! 

"The lack of self awareness on this forum is astonishing"

"To continually lump together people you disagree with as being part of a group holding a myriad of other views is itself prejudice"

Is this meant to be irony or just plain stupidity?

I apologise. I should have said a large proportion of the most vocal on this forum seem to exhibit little or no self-awareness. I suspect the quieter amongst us have a more nuanced view on people & their opinions.

And straight in with the insults. What a surprise.

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

I apologise. I should have said a large proportion of the most vocal on this forum seem to exhibit little or no self-awareness. I suspect the quieter amongst us have a more nuanced view on people & their opinions.

And straight in with the insults. What a surprise.

Normally I would agree with you, but in this instance you are undeniably being a massive tw4t Ron. Sorry, but there it is.

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Meanwhile the comments re. "breakdown" of the nuclear family invariably will not take into account that extended family set-ups were generally far more common. Furthermore, much of this "breakdown" is due to people choosing to have fewer children (some by choice, some being aware that it's tough to afford it, and both cases are actually a clear sign of responsibility/prudence), not to mention greater opportunities being open to women. 

This is also why declining birth rates are not the problem many think. Unless they want people to have unwanted kids and all the additional myriad problems that causes. That way, madness lies.

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6 hours ago, horsefly said:

I'm quite happy to let your stupidity speak for itself. There really is no need to point out the absurdity of everything you have said. My only dilemma is which Harry Enfield character's voice one should choose to read your bigotry. I'm tossing a coin between the Old Gits and William Ulsterman. I think William Ulsterman wins out.

BTW, if the English football team taking the knee achieves nothing more than upsetting sad old right wing nut jobs like you and Tory bigots, then it will have been more than worth the effort.

Why do you think I'm upset by the kneeling? I find it very amusing. You call me sad, but it is you left wing whingers who are always miserable and demanding other people make changes while they do nothing themselves (except kneel 😄). I love my life. 

Rather than point out the absurdity of everything I said, how about pointing out just 1 that is absurd and bigoted? Then explain what is absurd and bigoted about it. 

Hypocrites like Greta Thumberg  and the kneeling millionaires who hate the West while enjoying its luxuries are so self unaware. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, ron obvious said:

I apologise. I should have said a large proportion of the most vocal on this forum seem to exhibit little or no self-awareness. I suspect the quieter amongst us have a more nuanced view on people & their opinions.

And straight in with the insults. What a surprise.

So, the man who who spewed out the following insults:

"The lack of self awareness on this forum is astonishing - or it would be if it hadn't become normalized through indoctrination."

" It's lazy, careless childish & dangerous."

"not just shout "you're a fascist!" at people with your fingers in your ears (rather in the manner of Rik Mayall in The Young Ones)"

complains when someone responds in kind. I suggest you be careful, surely you wouldn't want all those "woke" lefties think you're a bit of a hypocritical  "snowflake". BTW your pantomime depiction of people on here shouting "you're a fascist" at everyone they disagree with is truly pathetic.

Edited by horsefly

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4 hours ago, Too Bad said:

Why do you think I'm upset by the kneeling? I find it very amusing. You call me sad, but it is you left wing whingers who are always miserable and demanding other people make changes while they do nothing themselves (except kneel 😄). I love my life. 

Rather than point out the absurdity of everything I said, how about pointing out just 1 that is absurd and bigoted? Then explain what is absurd and bigoted about it. 

Hypocrites like Greta Thumberg  and the kneeling millionaires who hate the West while enjoying its luxuries are so self unaware. 

Oh dear! let's begin by pointing out the absurdity in your last sentence. Find me one piece of evidence that a single one of the England footballlers has said anything, or acted in any way, to show they "hate the west". 

But let's forego the petty details and get to the fundamental issue which is that your conception of modern western democratic culture (MWDC) is utterly skewed and wrong-headed. Thinkers of the right and left at least all agree that MWDC has its foundations in the central principles of the 18th century culture of the European Enlightenment. The two most important among those principles are the authority of reason over superstition (scientific or rational methodology over superstitious revelation), and the freedom of thought and expression (to allow science and reason to take us where the evidence and facts lead). A culture based on the authority of reason and freedom of speech is a culture that demands that all aspects of society (its beliefs and values) should be subject to a constant process of critical questioning. Thus your objection to a bunch of footballers taking the knee to express their solidarity with the cause of racial equality, is the very antithesis of the fundamental values of MWDC that you claim to support. People who critically question the values and beliefs of their particular society are the very people upholding the fundamental principles that make MWDC possible.  It's people like you who want to suppress such questioning who are its most insidious enemies, despite your claims to the contrary. Peversely you have an awful lot in common with the extreme "no-platformers" who also want to stiffle freedom of expression because they don't happen to like the message being portrayed. Any true believer in MWDC would applaud the England football team for expressing their collective view that they believe all players irrespective of ethnicity and colour deserve equal respect. You may wish to ignore their message (that is your right) but what you can't do is claim to be a supporter of MWDC and call for the supression of their freedom of expression. That is just plain old-fashioned hypocracy, and a very obvious contradiction in terms.

 

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Football post turns into political argument shocker. 
 

one thing is certain we, as human beings have to change and learn from the past to survive otherwise our future will be very short.  Looking at the weather in Canada now shows that. 
 

Equally if we don’t learn from our past mistakes, particularly trying to kill each other and impose our own beliefs on others then we won’t be around much longer. 
 

the next substantial conflict will likely be our last. 
 

 

 

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14 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Kneeling has been a sign of abasement throughout human history. Trying to change that because you want it to mean something different to suit an agenda is pure arrogance in itself. Mr. Southgate's or Mr. Mings' assertions won't alter anything.

The lack of self awareness on this forum is astonishing - or it would be if it hadn't become normalized through indoctrination.

To continually lump together people you disagree with as being part of a group holding a myriad of other views is itself prejudice - it would be like saying that all black people have the same criminal tendencies as George Floyd. It's lazy, careless childish & dangerous.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to refute opinions one by one, not just shout "you're a fascist!" at people with your fingers in your ears (rather in the manner of Rik Mayall in The Young Ones). Personally I find some people I really like hold opinions I totally disagree with - & vice versa. People are extraordinarily complicated & rushing to judge them is pure folly. 

If you want to stop racism do it on a personal level. Pretending that everyone else is a racist except me & my mates is counterproductive & just plain wrong.

 

7 hours ago, Too Bad said:

Why do you think I'm upset by the kneeling? I find it very amusing. You call me sad, but it is you left wing whingers who are always miserable and demanding other people make changes while they do nothing themselves (except kneel 😄). I love my life. 

Rather than point out the absurdity of everything I said, how about pointing out just 1 that is absurd and bigoted? Then explain what is absurd and bigoted about it. 

Hypocrites like Greta Thumberg  and the kneeling millionaires who hate the West while enjoying its luxuries are so self unaware. 

The question is will you guys be supporting the England team tonight?

They seem the complete antithesis of everything you believe and will be proudly taking the knee, they reflect modern progressive values, multiculturalism, immigration and diversity.

I can say I will proudly support them and what they stand for.

Can you?

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1 hour ago, duke63 said:

Football post turns into political argument shocker. 
 

one thing is certain we, as human beings have to change and learn from the past to survive otherwise our future will be very short.  Looking at the weather in Canada now shows that. 
 

Equally if we don’t learn from our past mistakes, particularly trying to kill each other and impose our own beliefs on others then we won’t be around much longer. 
 

the next substantial conflict will likely be our last. 
 

 

 

Indeed! I guess, when certain individuals come on here to post claims that the England football team are part of a Marxist conspiracy to overthrow western democracy, they can expect some of us to respond by pointing out those claims are utterly absurd. Like BF I shall be 100% behind this fantastic multi-racial team who have proved what genuine solidarity behind the principle of equality of respect for all their fellow players can achieve. What a great example to set for all aspects of our society.

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15 hours ago, ron obvious said:

To continually lump together people you disagree with as being part of a group holding a myriad of other views is itself prejudice

Now here I agree with you - you mean like "lumping together" all people who take the knee are Marxists, or bizarrely, supporters of a career criminal!

As you say, such an act could be seen as,

15 hours ago, ron obvious said:

... lazy, careless childish & dangerous.

However, I fear that it something more than this: I think the attempt to "lump all people" together is in the way in which you seem to have done, is part of a process of indoctrination, of which you may have been a victim. In an attempt to try to help you in the future, if you see an argument that is reductive and simplistic, like for example, taking the knee is "supporting Marxists" just stop and think about the purpose of the person trying to  push such a simplistic line.

 

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15 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Kneeling has been a sign of abasement throughout human history.

Taking the knee != kneeling.

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Furthermore, when Colin Kaepernick decided to take the knee as a gesture, he initially asked a former Army veteran, namely Nate Boyer, for advice on how to not be disrespectful as initially his idea was to remain seated rather than stand.

"And, you know, people - in my opinions and in my experience, kneeling's never been in our history really seen as a disrespectful act. I mean, people kneel when they get knighted. You kneel to propose to your wife, and you take a knee to pray. And soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave to pay respects. So I thought, if anything, besides standing, that was the most respectful. But, of course, that's just my opinion."

The Veteran And NFL Player Who Advised Kaepernick To Take A Knee : NPR

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

 

The question is will you guys be supporting the England team tonight?

They seem the complete antithesis of everything you believe and will be proudly taking the knee, they reflect modern progressive values, multiculturalism, immigration and diversity.

I can say I will proudly support them and what they stand for.

Can you?

Once again "you guys".

I've no idea who Too Bad is or who he'll be supporting, but I 'll be supporting the England team tonight, no matter who's in it. With one or two exceptions they seem to be a likeable bunch.

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

Once again "you guys".

I've no idea who Too Bad is or who he'll be supporting, but I 'll be supporting the England team tonight, no matter who's in it. With one or two exceptions they seem to be a likeable bunch.

Even though they support Marxists and career criminals...?

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Football brings us together far more than it divides us, and I’m a Taff but will be behind the English lads today, whether they kneel or not I really am not bothered. Enjoy the game 👍

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