Seems like the Tories don't want football to come home

[Too Bad 6]

11 hours ago, horsefly said:

Oh dear! let's begin by pointing out the absurdity in your last sentence. Find me one piece of evidence that a single one of the England footballlers has said anything, or acted in any way, to show they "hate the west". 

But let's forego the petty details and get to the fundamental issue which is that your conception of modern western democratic culture (MWDC) is utterly skewed and wrong-headed. Thinkers of the right and left at least all agree that MWDC has its foundations in the central principles of the 18th century culture of the European Enlightenment. The two most important among those principles are the authority of reason over superstition (scientific or rational methodology over superstitious revelation), and the freedom of thought and expression (to allow science and reason to take us where the evidence and facts lead). A culture based on the authority of reason and freedom of speech is a culture that demands that all aspects of society (its beliefs and values) should be subject to a constant process of critical questioning. Thus your objection to a bunch of footballers taking the knee to express their solidarity with the cause of racial equality, is the very antithesis of the fundamental values of MWDC that you claim to support. People who critically question the values and beliefs of their particular society are the very people upholding the fundamental principles that make MWDC possible.  It's people like you who want to suppress such questioning who are its most insidious enemies, despite your claims to the contrary. Peversely you have an awful lot in common with the extreme "no-platformers" who also want to stiffle freedom of expression because they don't happen to like the message being portrayed. Any true believer in MWDC would applaud the England football team for expressing their collective view that they believe all players irrespective of ethnicity and colour deserve equal respect. You may wish to ignore their message (that is your right) but what you can't do is claim to be a supporter of MWDC and call for the supression of their freedom of expression. That is just plain old-fashioned hypocracy, and a very obvious contradiction in terms.

 

Collective view? 😄 Ok, Mr Marx.

 

I've never said people shouldn't be allowed to express their views. Kneel away, privileged millionaires. I will continue to laugh at them and point out their hypocrisy. If you don't think Prem players are privileged, that's hilarious. They have been pampered and kowtowed to their entire lives. They worked for it, of course, but plenty of others worked as hard but weren't as good and didn't have such privilege as being paid to play a game, be adored for playing a game, be cheered when they go to work, have all sorts of people fawning over them, etc. Even as children, when their skills got noticed, people began building them up. We're all privileged in the West to live in this time of luxury but pro athletes are privileged much more than that. To then turn around and decry how horrible our world is reeks of hypocrisy and privilege and just being out of touch. 

Come on England. I like you and Im not even a millionaire. 

[The Bristol Nest 513]

1 minute ago, Too Bad said:

Collective view? 😄 Ok, Mr Marx.

 

I've never said people shouldn't be allowed to express their views. Kneel away, privileged millionaires. I will continue to laugh at them and point out their hypocrisy. If you don't think Prem players are privileged, that's hilarious. They have been pampered and kowtowed to their entire lives. They worked for it, of course, but plenty of others worked as hard but weren't as good and didn't have such privilege as being paid to play a game, be adored for playing a game, be cheered when they go to work, have all sorts of people fawning over them, etc. Even as children, when their skills got noticed, people began building them up. We're all privileged in the West to live in this time of luxury but pro athletes are privileged much more than that. To then turn around and decry how horrible our world is reeks of hypocrisy and privilege and just being out of touch. 

Come on England. I like you and Im not even a millionaire. 

Enjoy the game.

[Badger 2,405]

26 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

I totally agree that right wing boo boys are an intolerant bunch who embarrass our country as do all who boo other nations’ anthems.

Or what you actually said:

2 hours ago, Crafty Canary said:

Unfortunately too many see not taking the knee as being pro racism etc rather than a personal choice all are free to make.

Nobody suggested that anyone must take the knee - you made it up! (To cover support for those exercising their right to boo? Only you know for certain, but you have tried to reinvent the argument to cover for them so...)

The irony of your response is that you do not feel or say the same about the extreme left wing bigots who hold our country in contempt and always see themselves as victims of other peoples actions or failings rather than their own.

Which extreme left wing bigots are these and when have I supported them? More fiction, I'm afraid. The only people who have held the country in contempt are those right wing zealots booing their own country (and also btw those fans spitting at Danisg children after the match last week - or are you suggesting that they were woke?)

You might want the utopia of the Democratic (😂) Peoples Republic of North Korea to be visited upon us but most of the rest of us don’t.

I certainly do not want the People's Republic of North Korea. I have never said that I do and it is just ridiculous fiction to suggest otherwise.

Was it Harold Wilson who said,

"I'll do you a deal, will you you stop telling lies about me if I stop telling the truth about you!

In an attempt to justify prejudice, you have to try to invent things that others are supposed to have said!

 

[Badger 2,405]

6 minutes ago, Too Bad said:

I will continue to laugh at them and point out their hypocrisy.

You could start by explaining why it is hypocrisy? Why does the fact that they are millionaires mean that they should not make gestures in opposition to racism?

[kirku 1,332]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

You could start by explaining why it is hypocrisy? Why does the fact that they are millionaires mean that they should not make gestures in opposition to racism?

Get with the programme - Raheem Sterling is an over-indulged pampered baby who has enjoyed untold privilege his "entire life" and has never been the subject of vile racist abuse from "fans" or the tabloids

Edited July 11, 2021 by kirku

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

It's almost as if some don't catch the bit at the end of every BBC snippet on the Euros about online abuse. Certainly Sterling and Mings have faced a fair bit of it, Sterling most certainly has due to his profile.

[Herman 9,717]

Spot the difference.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3667267/That-s-lot-Sterling-England-flop-Raheem-shows-blinging-house-complete-home-cinema-jewel-encrusted-bathroom-fleet-supercars.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6241313/Manchester-City-starlet-Phil-Foden-buys-new-2m-home-mum.html

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 minutes ago, Badger said:

You could start by explaining why it is hypocrisy? Why does the fact that they are millionaires mean that they should not make gestures in opposition to racism?

Of course Too Bad is free to share his opinion. If we want to live in an egalitarian society, we have to accept there many who judge achievement in different ways.

For along time, I have favoured meritocracy but am now being told by some academics that such a system creates discrimination. Beggared if I can see it, but obviously I could be open to accusations.

[Van wink 2,994]

Ground looks full of racists to me, look at all them flags😳

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Of course Too Bad is free to share his opinion. If we want to live in an egalitarian society, we have to accept there many who judge achievement in different ways.

For along time, I have favoured meritocracy but am now being told by some academics that such a system creates discrimination. Beggared if I can see it, but obviously I could be open to accusations.

I think it'll be this - an article written by Michael Young, who actually put the word "meritocracy" into common use with his 1958 text "The Rise of the Meritocracy".

Down with meritocracy | Michael Young | The Guardian

[A Load of Squit 5,134]

10 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Ground looks full of racists to me, look at all them flags😳

I watched a bit of the C4 coverage of the '66 match yesterday. It was interesting that in the crowd scenes it was very difficult to see a cross of St George flag, it was 99.9% Union Flag.  

Edited July 11, 2021 by A Load of Squit

[Van wink 2,994]

12 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

I watched a bit of the C4 coverage of the '66 match yesterday. It was interesting that in the crowd scenes it was very difficult to see a cross of St George flag, it was 99.9% Union Flag.  

Well that’s not true cos I watched the game live and there were loads of dragons where I was sitting 

[Too Bad 6]

2 hours ago, kirku said:

Get with the programme - Raheem Sterling is an over-indulged pampered baby who has enjoyed untold privilege his "entire life" and has never been the subject of vile racist abuse from "fans" or the tabloids

They are privileged, but want to be seen as victims. 

The hypocrisy stems from them pretending to care by doing an empty virtue signal.  

If Sterling was called names online, welcome to the club. Who hasn't? Idiot bullies pick something about you and attack it. If you let that dominate your life, you let them win. If you pretend it dominates your life while you live a life of fabulous wealth and luxury, your worse than them because you empower them. And then you kneel. 😄

[Badger 2,405]

4 hours ago, Van wink said:

Ground looks full of racists to me, look at all them flags😳

? 😫

Er, the flags have got nothing to do with it. The racists are the ones booing the national team for making a small pro equality gesture.

It really isn't that hard, you know...

 

 

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Too Bad said:

They are privileged, but want to be seen as victims. 

The hypocrisy stems from them pretending to care by doing an empty virtue signal.  

If Sterling was called names online, welcome to the club. Who hasn't? Idiot bullies pick something about you and attack it. If you let that dominate your life, you let them win. If you pretend it dominates your life while you live a life of fabulous wealth and luxury, your worse than them because you empower them. And then you kneel. 😄

Pretending to care, or caring? Virtue signaling or showing solidarity? Racism is only name calling, really?

Nasty piece of work, arn't you?

[Badger 2,405]

4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think it'll be this - an article written by Michael Young, who actually put the word "meritocracy" into common use with his 1958 text "The Rise of the Meritocracy".

Down with meritocracy | Michael Young | The Guardian

Yes, believe it or not, is Toby Young's father.

The argument is quite interesting and with considerable merit, although I haven't read the article, so don't know how it's being portrayed in The Guardian.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

Yes, believe it or not, is Toby Young's father.

The argument is quite interesting and with considerable merit, although I haven't read the article, so don't know how it's being portrayed in The Guardian.

Correct, as Toby Young also mentioned it at length in How To Lose Friends and Alienate People. He always ended up in discussions with Americans about the notion of meritocracy and the American Dream and how they all thought a meritocracy was a utopia, when he knew through his father that it was coined to mean the polar opposite.

[Badger 2,405]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Correct, as Toby Young also mentioned it at length in How To Lose Friends and Alienate People. He always ended up in discussions with Americans about the notion of meritocracy and the American Dream and how they all thought a meritocracy was a utopia, when he knew through his father that it was coined to mean the polar opposite.

I brought the book about 25 years ago, because he had such a fantastic title, but tbh, I still haven't read it 😁

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

I brought the book about 25 years ago, because he had such a fantastic title, but tbh, I still haven't read it 😁

Read it, it's bloody funny if you like politically incorrect hi-jinks.

[BigFish 1,986]

5 hours ago, Too Bad said:

 So is kneeling. It does not bring awareness to something that we're all aware of and that gets way overplayed when it does happen. 

Well obviously it does bring awareness, because you seem obsessed by it. Looks like it is working.

Additionally the fact that you think racism is overplayed speaks volumes about your character.

[BigFish 1,986]

20 minutes ago, Badger said:

I brought the book about 25 years ago, because he had such a fantastic title, but tbh, I still haven't read it 😁

Young is a loathsome toad. But the fact he doesn't hide it makes the book very funny.

Edited July 11, 2021 by BigFish

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Young is a loathsome toad. But the fact he doesn't hide it makes the book very funny.

The bit where he inadvertently brought a stripper to work on "Bring Your Daughters To Work Day" is possibly one of the funniest things I've read in print.

And yes, totally agree with his self-awareness and not hiding things. You do find yourself rooting for him though, and noting the absurdity and superficiality of the whole edifice he found himself in.

Edited July 11, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[kirku 1,332]

8 hours ago, Too Bad said:

They are privileged, but want to be seen as victims. 

The hypocrisy stems from them pretending to care by doing an empty virtue signal. 

You took time out during England's biggest game in 55 years to post this?

 

[duke63 541]

9 hours ago, Too Bad said:

They are privileged, but want to be seen as victims. 

The hypocrisy stems from them pretending to care by doing an empty virtue signal.  

If Sterling was called names online, welcome to the club. Who hasn't? Idiot bullies pick something about you and attack it. If you let that dominate your life, you let them win. If you pretend it dominates your life while you live a life of fabulous wealth and luxury, your worse than them because you empower them. And then you kneel. 😄

What a quite appalling post on this weekend of all weekends. 
 

not much doubt on how your mind works. 

[king canary 7,580]

9 hours ago, BigFish said:

Pretending to care, or caring? Virtue signaling or showing solidarity? Racism is only name calling, really?

Nasty piece of work, arn't you?

That is the problem isn't it? It's almost nihilistic at this point, for some the second you try and take a stand on anything based on morals you're only doing it to make other people think you care, never because you might actually believe in something. 

[horsefly 4,287]

16 hours ago, Too Bad said:

Collective view? 😄 Ok, Mr Marx.

 

I've never said people shouldn't be allowed to express their views. Kneel away, privileged millionaires. I will continue to laugh at them and point out their hypocrisy. If you don't think Prem players are privileged, that's hilarious. They have been pampered and kowtowed to their entire lives. They worked for it, of course, but plenty of others worked as hard but weren't as good and didn't have such privilege as being paid to play a game, be adored for playing a game, be cheered when they go to work, have all sorts of people fawning over them, etc. Even as children, when their skills got noticed, people began building them up. We're all privileged in the West to live in this time of luxury but pro athletes are privileged much more than that. To then turn around and decry how horrible our world is reeks of hypocrisy and privilege and just being out of touch. 

Come on England. I like you and Im not even a millionaire. 

Sometimes our much used metaphors let us down, for example: "As thick as two planks" doesn't get close to the numerical value required to provide an accurate description of your stunted intellect. Buy yourself a dictionary and look up the words "collective", "hypocrisy", and "Privilege", then you might stand at least some remote chance of avoiding such laughably stupid bilge.

Edited July 12, 2021 by horsefly

[Mello Yello 2,281]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Sometimes our much used metaphors let us down, for example: "As thick as two planks" doesn't get close to the numerical value required to provide an accurate description of your stunted intellect. Buy yourself a dictionary and look up the words "collective", "hypocracy", and "Privillege", then you might stand at least some remote chance of avoiding such laughably stupid bilge.

May I suggest that you return your dictionary to wherever you got it?......In my dictionary I couldn't find the words 'hypocracy' or 'privillege'.....Still that old metaphor 'Spel hit how hugh say hit' springs to mind.....Or 'I called her then metaphor a drink'......

[Badger 2,405]

15 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think it'll be this - an article written by Michael Young, who actually put the word "meritocracy" into common use with his 1958 text "The Rise of the Meritocracy".

Down with meritocracy | Michael Young | The Guardian

I have just read the article and found it very interesting - thank you!

Given that the article is over 20 years old, it seems prescient in the wake of Brexit and more widely "culture wars" and those that exploit it for their own political and economic gain.

[horsefly 4,287]

7 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

May I suggest that you return your dictionary to wherever you got it?......In my dictionary I couldn't find the words 'hypocracy' or 'privillege'.....Still that old metaphor 'Spel hit how hugh say hit' springs to mind.....Or 'I called her then metaphor a drink'......

Thanks for that, clearly shouldn't post with a heavy hangover. Hope you're enjoying all the flags coming down.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

9 minutes ago, Badger said:

I have just read the article and found it very interesting - thank you!

Given that the article is over 20 years old, it seems prescient in the wake of Brexit and more widely "culture wars" and those that exploit it for their own political and economic gain.

Precisely. The basic notion of "selecting the best for the position" is beyond dispute and is basically the Overton window of what people see a meritocracy as being. However, as Young clearly states, it is an absurdly narrow focus and does not look at those who may have been a little unfortunate.