A couple of inclusivity ideas, feel free to add your own

[Naturalcynic 629]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Whether their opinion is different is a moot point. When that opinion results in discrimination against people for no sensible reason whatsoever (such as denying people accommodation / equal treatment etc.), then it certainly is bigoted / racist depending on the nature of the group that is being hosed over.

Have we gone full circle?  This thread started by advocating reduced ticket prices to those of certain religions or skin colours.

[Badger 2,405]

6 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

There you go again.  Labelling people as racist simply because they have a different opinion to you.

I haven't labelled anybody. I didn't even mention anybody - pure fiction.

I simply pointed out that being "woke" is a good thing, and that if you are opposed to racism, sexism and homophobia, you are "woke" too.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

2 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Have we gone full circle?  This thread started by advocating reduced ticket prices to those of certain religions or skin colours.

And hardly anyone engaged that bit. The convo went in a completely different direction.

Very simple pair of questions. Is a bus driver who refuses to drive a bus in rainbow colours because of his own views on homosexuality a bigot? Is anyone who supports the driver in such a case also a bigot?

Edited June 12, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2010/2-april/news/uk/christians-are-discriminated-against-in-uk-say-bishops

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

7 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I wonder how Christians are discriminated against?

You mean aside from being Identified by the UN as the most persecuted group on earth? 
in Syria, Iraq, Africa, China you can find people being displaced and murdered on account of the faith.

In the west a Christian can expect to be treated, as this thread itself proves in places, with scorn and derision and lack of respect via ignorant accusations - as if we think the world is only 6000 years old (not true) whilst being given no credit for the massive contribution to western culture and philosophy etc..via anselm, Augustine etc…

[Mr Angry 1,547]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

That’s odd.  I get exactly the same feeling when some on the left use words like “bigot”, “racist” and “gammon” because they can’t tolerate someone having different views to them.

This is the only forum I go on and my experience is that words like racist and bigot are mainly used when someone has expressed racist or bigoted views during the discussion whereas woke is often the starting point of the discussion.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

1 minute ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

You mean aside from being Identified by the UN as the most persecuted group on earth? 
in Syria, Iraq, Africa, China you can find people being displaced and murdered on account of the faith.

In the west a Christian can expect to be treated, as this thread itself proves in places, with scorn and derision and lack of respect via ignorant accusations - as if we think the world is only 6000 years old (not true) whilst being given no credit for the massive contribution to western culture and philosophy etc..via anselm, Augustine etc…

So in the UK, where this thread is essentially based, you've got ****-all apart from the odd legal case here and there. At the same time, until at least gay marriage was legalised, you had a whole group of people missing out on legal protections simply due to their sexuality.

And some Christians do believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. Look at Edwin Poots of the DUP for starters. Might not be held across most strands of Christianity, but it's certainly there.

If your religion results in some adherents advocating for people to be discriminated against merely due to that faith, why be surprised when people push back?

[Uncle Fred 526]

35 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

There you go again.  Labelling people as racist simply because they have a different opinion to you.

It is the neo facism of the woke brigade conform to their extreme left wing view of the world or you are a racist 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

26 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2010/2-april/news/uk/christians-are-discriminated-against-in-uk-say-bishops

There could have been a hygiene matter in that one for Chaplin in her position as a nurse, as it failed when going to Europe. However, this lady won her battle to wear one. I suspect it was due to the nature of her work that meant one failed and one succeeded.

Nadia Eweida Wins Religious Cross Battle With British Airways After European Court Ruling | HuffPost UK (huffingtonpost.co.uk)

[Evil Monkey 52]

8 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

It is the neo facism of the woke brigade conform to their extreme left wing view of the world or you are a racist 

What is the extreme left wing view? 

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

4 minutes ago, Evil Monkey said:

What is the extreme left wing view? 

Mostly just screeching.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

20 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

So in the UK, where this thread is essentially based, you've got ****-all apart from the odd legal case here and there. At the same time, until at least gay marriage was legalised, you had a whole group of people missing out on legal protections simply due to their sexuality.

And some Christians do believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. Look at Edwin Poots of the DUP for starters. Might not be held across most strands of Christianity, but it's certainly there.

If your religion results in some adherents advocating for people to be discriminated against merely due to that faith, why be surprised when people push back?

In the Uk I could point you to nurses sacked for praying, others sacked due to holding a different views on sexual morality to you. I could show you medics unable to practice because they don’t endorse abortion. Other Christians treated contempt and wrongly labelled as being full of hate simply for believing sex outside of marriage is wrong. Etc etc 

you say “some Christians believe…” what does that even mean? Some crazy in a tin hut mission hall is hardly representative,  you need to show me which denomination teaches Thisbe a doctrine? I can’t think of any - meanwhile the man who came up with the Big Bang theory was actually a Catholic priest seeking a moment of creation - a best friend of Einstein and leading physicist - but hey we Christians are all dumb aren’t we and believe  in fairy tales…(see how your crude summing up of Christian belief is itself a form of bigotry? Would you say “all gays think this?” As you are happy to label all Christians? 
 

Finally you claim the church was hostile to homosexual people. What rubbish! The culture was hostile hence many gay people found a safe home in the church and especially the priesthood- where even today a great many priests are gay. Indeed I have never in my life met a church where gay people were not treated with anything  but respect/ but then I tend to go to mainstream places not loony fringes where all manner of odd people can be found. Bit like finding the most violent football fan and using that to label all fans..

[Evil Monkey 52]

2 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Bit like finding the most violent football fan and using that to label all fans..

Or taking a few extreme examples and using it to claim that Christians are the most persecuted group in the world...? 

[Evil Monkey 52]

11 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

Mostly just screeching.

Funny how quiet this chat goes when someone asks for something rational... 

[Badger 2,405]

31 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

You mean aside from being Identified by the UN as the most persecuted group on earth? 
in Syria, Iraq, Africa, China you can find people being displaced and murdered on account of the faith.

In the west a Christian can expect to be treated, as this thread itself proves in places, with scorn and derision and lack of respect via ignorant accusations - as if we think the world is only 6000 years old (not true) whilst being given no credit for the massive contribution to western culture and philosophy etc..via anselm, Augustine etc…

1. Where has this thread treated Christians with "scorn and derision."

2. My understanding is that some creationists do believe the world is only 6000 years old? Am I wrong in this understanding? (In any case, you wouldn't discredit a whole religion, because a minority have unusual views.)

3. Of course, Christianity has made a massive contribution to Western culture and philosophy. It is without doubt the biggest influence.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

3 minutes ago, Evil Monkey said:

Or taking a few extreme examples and using it to claim that Christians are the most persecuted group in the world...? 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

But it isn’t a few examples sadly. Christians really are the most persecuted group on a earth- with 80% of violence committed on people due to their beliefs being perpetrated on Christians 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/christian-persecution-rises-as-people-refused-aid-in-covid-crisis-report

[Badger 2,405]

8 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

In the Uk I could point you to nurses sacked for praying, others sacked due to holding a different views on sexual morality to you. I could show you medics unable to practice because they don’t endorse abortion. Other Christians treated contempt and wrongly labelled as being full of hate simply for believing sex outside of marriage is wrong. Etc etc 

Please do point me to these cases - if you can.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

17 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

In the Uk I could point you to nurses sacked for praying, others sacked due to holding a different views on sexual morality to you. I could show you medics unable to practice because they don’t endorse abortion. Other Christians treated contempt and wrongly labelled as being full of hate simply for believing sex outside of marriage is wrong. Etc etc 

you say “some Christians believe…” what does that even mean? Some crazy in a tin hut mission hall is hardly representative,  you need to show me which denomination teaches Thisbe a doctrine? I can’t think of any - meanwhile the man who came up with the Big Bang theory was actually a Catholic priest seeking a moment of creation - a best friend of Einstein and leading physicist - but hey we Christians are all dumb aren’t we and believe  in fairy tales…(see how your crude summing up of Christian belief is itself a form of bigotry? Would you say “all gays think this?” As you are happy to label all Christians? 
 

Finally you claim the church was hostile to homosexual people. What rubbish! The culture was hostile hence many gay people found a safe home in the church and especially the priesthood- where even today a great many priests are gay. Indeed I have never in my life met a church where gay people were not treated with anything  but respect/ but then I tend to go to mainstream places not loony fringes where all manner of odd people can be found. Bit like finding the most violent football fan and using that to label all fans..

If you can't practice your medical job because of a belief in abortion, then how fit are you at doing your job? Furthermore, believing sex outside of marriage is wrong is also showing contempt for that lifestyle.

As for the some Christians believe, I already gave you an example in Poots. His young Earth belief is definitely accepted by the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster. Furthermore, I also said "some". You then try to counter by saying "but hey we Christians are all dumb aren't we...". At that point you're clearly mounting a strawman argument as I VERY clearly wrote that this applied only to "some". This means your last sentence in that paragraph is clearly nonsense as it is obvious that I do not label all. This also means your desperate attempt to call it "bigotry" also falls flat on its face. At that point, if those beliefs don't apply to you, nor does my comment. If the cap fits, and all that.

Lastly, religion in general has certainly been hostile to homosexuals and there are plenty enough Bible verses taken that way (not to mention the kerfuffle in some religious circles when David Cameron, a practicing Christian himself, decided to legalise gay marriage). However, the real crux of that point is that homosexuals were hosed over without legal recourse. That, as far as I am aware, is not the case for religious adherents.

I do accept that the allowing of gay priests is a step forward within the Church though. At the same time, there's still very much a problem - and this is in the Church of England.

The rebel priest: ‘Gay people in the church are not going to go away’ | LGBT rights | The Guardian

Edited June 12, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

Please do point me to these cases - if you can.

https://www.christian.org.uk/case/

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

https://www.christian.org.uk/case/

The Bull and Ladele cases went to the European Court of Human Rights, and they lost as per a link I put in earlier. However, the Ashers won their appeal, as was noted in an earlier link from Mr. Angry.

[Badger 2,405]

3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

https://www.christian.org.uk/case/

Thank you for the link which I read with increasing interest. 👍

I should point out at several of the cases arise from Christians discriminating against others rather than being discriminated against. Nevertheless, the Institute clearly does some good work. EG:-

• The Mcalpine case - yes, we should be allowed to preach if done in a reasonbale way
• The Named person scheme, although no doubt well-intentioned, is very  concerning and the Institute did excellent work here.
• Clearly also the Adrian Smith was a massive overreaction.

It was interesting that it was upheld that fostering agency was allowed to employ only evangelical Christians, but this in some ways  gives the lie to claims that the  law discriminates against Christians - I can imagine some (I'm not suggesting you) would complain about a similar recruitment policy by other religions. (I will store this in my memory banks as  I can imagine  this claim being made in future conversations.) 

However, the link does not do what you claim of it.

3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

In the Uk I could point you to nurses sacked for praying, others sacked due to holding a different views on sexual morality to you. I could show you medics unable to practice because they don’t endorse abortion.

I presume the "sacked due to holding a different views on sexual morality" refers to the Ladele case, but the Courts imo, got it right in upholding against her - how can you be a Marriage Registrar, and refuse to participate in same sex relationships? How do you justify being able to pick and choose who you provide a service to? She wasn't sacked because of her views but because she refuse to carry out her duties as a result of her views.

I was unable to find anything about nurses being sacked for praying or medics not being allowed to practice for not endorsing abortion. If it is contained in this link  could you identify the cases? I have looked at most of them and can't find them.

[horsefly 4,287]

4 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

n the Uk I could point you to nurses sacked for praying, others sacked due to holding a different views on sexual morality to you. I could show you medics unable to practice because they don’t endorse abortion. Other Christians treated contempt and wrongly labelled as being full of hate simply for believing sex outside of marriage is wrong. Etc etc 

A nurse sacked for praying for a patient who has expressed a wish for that not to happen should expect to be dismissed. No nurse should be expressing a view on the sexual morality of the patients she encounters, she should deal with what ever health issues that result from a patient's lifestyle with impartiality. If a nurse is prepared to endanger the life of a patient because he/she refuses to engage in a life saving abortion procedure because of his/her religious belief, he/she she not be in a position to practice nursing in the first place.

None of these claims have anything to do with persecuting a nurse for his/her christian values, they have everything to do with expecting a nurse to carry out his/her professional duties with the impartiality that is required to practice. No one is conscripted into nursing, so if they find that their personal religious beliefs conflict with what is required of impartial practice they should find another job compatible with those beliefs.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

A nurse sacked for praying for a patient who has expressed a wish for that not to happen should expect to be dismissed. No nurse should be expressing a view on the sexual morality of the patients she encounters, she should deal with what ever health issues that result from a patient's lifestyle with impartiality. If a nurse is prepared to endanger the life of a patient because he/she refuses to engage in a life saving abortion procedure because of his/her religious belief, he/she she not be in a position to practice nursing in the first place.

None of these claims have anything to do with persecuting a nurse for his/her christian values, they have everything to do with expecting a nurse to carry out his/her professional duties with the impartiality that is required to practice. No one is conscripted into nursing, so if they find that their personal religious beliefs conflict with what is required of impartial practice they should find another job compatible with those beliefs.

Nailed it. I consider it to be incompetence, which is a sacking offence. Same with the bus driver who refused to drive a rainbow bus as it was against his beliefs on homosexuality. If you can't drive a bus and you're a bus driver, ergo, you're incompetent.

Edited June 12, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[City fan 78]

That went downhill fast 🤣🤣🤣

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nailed it. I consider it to be incompetence, which is a sacking offence. Same with the bus driver who refused to drive a rainbow bus as it was against his beliefs on homosexuality. If you can't drive a bus and you're a bus driver, ergo, you're incompetent.

The first rule of medicine is first do no harm - which rather makes abortion an interesting case. It is also manifestly not a necessary medical procedure or a health issues in vast majority of cases but the desire to end a life. It is very obviously fair to allow pro life medics to opt out 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

4 hours ago, Badger said:

Please do point me to these cases - if you can.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5373943/amp/Catholic-midwife-ousted-refusing-oversee-abortions.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/100038732

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

7 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5373943/amp/Catholic-midwife-ousted-refusing-oversee-abortions.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/100038732

I will concede the praying nurse was arguably unprofessional 

[king canary 7,580]

Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

I will concede the praying nurse was arguably unprofessional 

Arguably? 8 separate patients complained about her, she was warned and yet continued. Nothing arguable about it.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

2 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5373943/amp/Catholic-midwife-ousted-refusing-oversee-abortions.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/100038732

The second one clearly states that patients complained and that she had been warned twice beforehand. I don't doubt the kind-heartedness of her motivations behind that gesture but a professional approach and not doing so would have kept her in a job, so that's not discriminating against Christians but against an action that she repeatedly did despite being told to the contrary and indeed disciplined. In other words, incompetence.

As for the first link, I can accept the irritation at suddenly being compelled to supervise after efforts had been made to accommodate this previously but again, I can see why the Supreme Court overturned against her.

The problem with conscience laws like this is that patients have absolutely no idea what to expect. To use a different surgical procedure as an example, a lot of doctors and surgeons will not carry out tubal ligations on women who do not have children and say to them that they don't, usually faffing them off with comments like "you'll think differently when older" or "come back when you've had some". The likes of Faith Roswell and Holly Brockwell (particularly Brockwell), two women who had to fight for prolonged periods of time, have written at length about this.