Clearing out the dead wood

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

5 hours ago, NorthCarolinaYellow said:

I'd be heartbroken to see Hernandez leave and legitimately think he still has something to offer! Zimmerman and Hugill will be kept around, I suspect, as safe backup options + good dressing room characters. Stieperman is probably gone. As are all 5 listed by the OP if possible.

Onel was the player I was most looking forward to seeing in the Prem last year. Thought he had the attributes to make a difference. It does seem like he has fallen out of favour but if we an get the Onel from 18/19 back I think he would very much have something to offer. 

Stiepermann Im not sure about. A few seasons ago was important as that target man type player we've missed since Holt, and with our emergency left-backing last season Im surprised he wasnt considered (injured?) as he's done it before. Struggled in the Prem whilst players like Cantwell moved up a level, wouldnt be surprised to see him go.

Think the others will have mutual terminations. None are Premier League level and seemingly dont have any real interest. The Em money makes this feasible and probably worth doing if homes cant be found. With Gunn coming in Im surprised McGovern is being kept around

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

2 hours ago, PockthorpePete said:

Didn't Leitner and Trybull have problems at their previous club(s) ? Them being the cause of the problems. I suspect that's why they have been frozen out. Zimmerman is not up to PL standard, though not through any lack of effort, and I am not sure Hanley will be first choice.

Unfortunately, for every diamond we find, it is inevitable we will be stuck with a dud. Even clubs who spend tens of millions on a player sometimes find they have a failure on their hands. As did West Ham, until they were able to unload Hugill onto us. 22 minutes over 3 games for WHU before he was sent out on loan. We will definitely lose shifting him on. Maybe Kings Lynn might take a punt. He truly is that bad.

 

Disagree on Zimm, I think he has a role if he can stay fit. Hanley was also written off previously which I never understood. Will be interesting to see what happens with Omobamidele

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

5 hours ago, KeiranShikari said:

Having spoken to Webber the pinkun journalists pretty much said we'd be open to selling. Presumably not going to force him out but what's the point of having a 30k p/w (complete guesswork) cheerleader.

That chat was also confirmed that we want a smaller squad hence my suggestion of Hernandez and Stieperman.

 

 

 

Dont really rate Hugill, but he is a different type of striker than Pukki/Idah and probably what we need. Id be happy to move him on as long as we signed someone similar but of Premier League standard

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

3 hours ago, spencer 1970 said:

Do you ever get the feeling "we're doing it wrong"? I'd have Emi over these 8, and that still leave us bumper wages left over for 2 decent players (AM/ST?)

 

 

Emi is on 80,000 a week at Villa. I know he wanted to go but his wage with us would have been 35,000 this season. 

80,000 a week, call that 300,000 a month, you're looking at around 3m per year in wages when were already paying 1.5m

 

People saying we cant pay those kind of wages. Really? We couldnt have found 1.5m to keep Emi at the club?

(I know this is simplistic, there'll be signing on fees as well). But what does Emi get at Villa this season that we cannot offer him? No European competition at Villa. A fanbase that loves him and a system in which he fits perfectly and guaranteed to start every week. At 33m its unlikely he wont be one of the first names on the teamsheet, but still, he's not established there.

I know he wanted to go but Id be disappointed if we didnt make any financial attempt to persuade him to stay, if only for one more season. Money talks

Edited June 10, 2021 by The Great Mass Debater

[spencer 1970 207]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

The numbers for Bushri there make me question wherever you got the info from to be honest. £15k pw for a player we signed from Belgium for the youth team?

https://footballleaguefc.com/norwich-city-2019-20-player-wages/

I got it from here, scroll down for 20/21. It could be wrong but i've found others very similar. 

[Mario Harpershite 20]

3 hours ago, spencer 1970 said:

Put put this on another thread eariler...harsh in some cases, but gives you an idea...

Marco Stiepermann	AM	25,000	2022
Timm Klose	CB	25,000	2022
Josip Drmic	CF	22,500	2022
Onel Hernández	LW	22,000	2023
Moritz Leitner	CM	20,000	2022
Tom Trybull	DM	20,000	2022
Rocky Bushiri	CB	15,000	2021
Jordan Hugill	CF	13,250	2023
		162,750

Do you ever get the feeling "we're doing it wrong"? I'd have Emi over these 8, and that still leave us bumper wages left over for 2 decent players (AM/ST?)

Is a smaller squad on bigger wages backed up with blooding youth* when needed the better solution?

(*It worked with Omobamidele this season. That alone could save us £5/10m)

You could arguably add these 2 to the list.

Sam Byram                          RB    20,000    2023
Christoph Zimmermann    CB    19,500    2023

 

What’s the source of this “information”? Because it looks very unrealistic.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

21 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Onel was the player I was most looking forward to seeing in the Prem last year. Thought he had the attributes to make a difference. It does seem like he has fallen out of favour but if we an get the Onel from 18/19 back I think he would very much have something to offer. 

Stiepermann Im not sure about. A few seasons ago was important as that target man type player we've missed since Holt, and with our emergency left-backing last season Im surprised he wasnt considered (injured?) as he's done it before. Struggled in the Prem whilst players like Cantwell moved up a level, wouldnt be surprised to see him go.

Think the others will have mutual terminations. None are Premier League level and seemingly dont have any real interest. The Em money makes this feasible and probably worth doing if homes cant be found. With Gunn coming in Im surprised McGovern is being kept around

Can't agree there. Keeping McGovern in is why our promising youngsters can go on loan and get the first-team game time they need. Barden and Oxborough badly need a season of getting tested.

[spencer 1970 207]

2 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

Emi is on 80,000 a week at Villa. I know he wanted to go but his wage with us would have been 35,000 this season. 

80,000 a week, call that 300,000 a month, you're looking at around 3m per year in wages when were already paying 1.5m

 

People saying we cant pay those kind of wages. Really? We couldnt have found 1.5m to keep Emi at the club?

(I know this is simplistic, there'll be signing on fees as well). But what does Emi get at Villa this season that we cannot offer him? No European competition at Villa. A fanbase that loves him and a system in which he fits perfectly and guaranteed to start every week. At 33m its unlikely he wont be one of the first names on the teamsheet, but still, he's not established there.

I know he wanted to go but Id be disappointed if we didnt make any attempt to persuade him to stay, if only for one more season

I totally agree. You could

also add that the manager has less form than Farke. Image Farke if he had 150m (now near £200m to spend?)

[spencer 1970 207]

Just linked above

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by spencer 1970

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

What if Emi gets off to a difficult start at Villa? Fans start saying he's a waste of money. Pressure of a price-tag. Could all go wrong for him. I dont think our fanbase would ever turn on him. Villa? Where he has no legacy? If he takes a season to gel with their players and fit in with their team the Villa fans might be on his back pretty soon following that kind of money.

[spencer 1970 207]

9 minutes ago, Mario Harper****e said:

What’s the source of this “information”? Because it looks very unrealistic.

Just linked above

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

I think Webber denied that 10% thing for Trybull.

It was probably a low percentage, but not that low.

[Indy_Bones 441]

7 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

80,000 a week, call that 300,000 a month, you're looking at around 3m per year in wages when were already paying 1.5m

People saying we cant pay those kind of wages. Really? We couldnt have found 1.5m to keep Emi at the club?

I'm pretty sure we could have afforded this, it's the domino effects afterwards that make it unfeasible.

Firstly you're likely to have a queue of players all demanding similar upticks to their wages, and can you really tell Pukki his 30 goals a season don't justify it? That Krul's excellence between the sticks doesn't deserve more? That Max shouldn't be expecting more when half a dozen of the very best clubs have shown genuine interest in him? Where does it stop? Suddenly you're not committing an extra 1.5m in wages to Emi, you're committing another 10+m in wages to ensure a degree of parity amongst the top players.

Let's say you DON'T agree to pay these guys more, then you've got a recipe for serious animosity and dissension amongst the whole team, with other key players feeling undervalued, at which point the likes of Max, Todd and our other brightest players can quite easily start demanding moves, and the whole house of cards collapses.

It's never as simple as "It's only an extra 1.5m in wages to keep Emi", especially if it's not just the wages that prompted his move, but if he sees his career as getting better in the process, we still lose out.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 10/06/2021 at 16:34, king canary said:

Understandably there is a lot of talk about high profile departures like Buendia and possibly Aarons. However I do wonder what chance we have of shifting out the reasonably well paid deadwood (maybe a harsh term) and how that could affect their budget. The players I've got in mind are...

• Drmic
• Trybull
• Klose
• Leitner
• Heise

 

 

 

One down, four to go.

[Haus 259]

11 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

I'm pretty sure we could have afforded this, it's the domino effects afterwards that make it unfeasible.

Firstly you're likely to have a queue of players all demanding similar upticks to their wages, and can you really tell Pukki his 30 goals a season don't justify it? That Krul's excellence between the sticks doesn't deserve more? That Max shouldn't be expecting more when half a dozen of the very best clubs have shown genuine interest in him? Where does it stop? Suddenly you're not committing an extra 1.5m in wages to Emi, you're committing another 10+m in wages to ensure a degree of parity amongst the top players.

Let's say you DON'T agree to pay these guys more, then you've got a recipe for serious animosity and dissension amongst the whole team, with other key players feeling undervalued, at which point the likes of Max, Todd and our other brightest players can quite easily start demanding moves, and the whole house of cards collapses.

It's never as simple as "It's only an extra 1.5m in wages to keep Emi", especially if it's not just the wages that prompted his move, but if he sees his career as getting better in the process, we still lose out.

I'm sure, on the flip side they'd be happier to be in the Premier league, making more than they would in the championship.  If it gives us a better shot at winning.... 

[Indy_Bones 441]

Just now, Haus said:

I'm sure, on the flip side they'd be happier to be in the Premier league, making more than they would in the championship.  If it gives us a better shot at winning.... 

There are ZERO guarantees that would be the case either way.

I'm sure some of our top players like Pukki are going to say "No problem with Emi being on twice my wage, as long as I'm in the Prem, I don't care if he's being paid double what I am, after all, it's not like I'm the clubs top goalscorer...oh wait"

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

13 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

There are ZERO guarantees that would be the case either way.

I'm sure some of our top players like Pukki are going to say "No problem with Emi being on twice my wage, as long as I'm in the Prem, I don't care if he's being paid double what I am, after all, it's not like I'm the clubs top goalscorer...oh wait"

But does happen at other clubs.. as I mentioned in another thread Brighton and Palace have some first team on double and triple the wage of some others in the same team. Watford do too and am sure many others, all teams we will be wanting to compete with. This fixation with paying players the same or they become unhappy isn’t so black and white, players and agents will always be pushing to get the best deal but I would wager they want to be playing PL first and foremost.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Son Ova Gunn

[Indy_Bones 441]

Brighton and Palace both have more financial backing to support numerous players on a higher wage though.

As said earlier, there's at least 4-5 of our players who I feel could quite rightly make the argument that they deserve similar bumps in wage based on their contributions and importance to the team, and that's when you starting talking about an extra 10+ mil in wages, or risk players potentially getting hacked off and looking to force a move to someone who WILL pay the increase.

It's easy for us to sit here and argue what would or wouldn't happen in terms of potential dissension over wage disparity, but we have to combine this with our financials and that's where the wheels can come off in the event that the issue does arise, and then where does that leave us?

[Midlands Yellow 3,946]

19 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

Emi is on 80,000 a week at Villa. I know he wanted to go but his wage with us would have been 35,000 this season. 

80,000 a week, call that 300,000 a month, you're looking at around 3m per year in wages when were already paying 1.5m

 

People saying we cant pay those kind of wages. Really? We couldnt have found 1.5m to keep Emi at the club?

(I know this is simplistic, there'll be signing on fees as well). But what does Emi get at Villa this season that we cannot offer him? No European competition at Villa. A fanbase that loves him and a system in which he fits perfectly and guaranteed to start every week. At 33m its unlikely he wont be one of the first names on the teamsheet, but still, he's not established there.

I know he wanted to go but Id be disappointed if we didnt make any financial attempt to persuade him to stay, if only for one more season. Money talks

Call £80k a week over £4m a year, I’m sure he doesn’t mind the extra £1M +. 

[Capt. Pants 4,202]

I'm sure every club has their 'deadpool' and ours is starting to grow a bit. Needs a bit of thinning pretty drastically.

It would be a shame if we have to lose some of our promising youngsters to finance the likes of Drmic and Leitner.

[Move Klose 303]

22 hours ago, PockthorpePete said:

Didn't Leitner and Trybull have problems at their previous club(s) ? Them being the cause of the problems. I suspect that's why they have been frozen out. Zimmerman is not up to PL standard, though not through any lack of effort, and I am not sure Hanley will be first choice.

Unfortunately, for every diamond we find, it is inevitable we will be stuck with a dud. Even clubs who spend tens of millions on a player sometimes find they have a failure on their hands. As did West Ham, until they were able to unload Hugill onto us. 22 minutes over 3 games for WHU before he was sent out on loan. We will definitely lose shifting him on. Maybe Kings Lynn might take a punt. He truly is that bad.

What a load of sh#te. Whether you think he's good enough for us in the championship or Premier league to say Kings Lynn is his level. How ridiculous.

[Badger 2,405]

On 10/06/2021 at 23:15, spencer 1970 said:

https://footballleaguefc.com/norwich-city-2019-20-player-wages/

I got it from here, scroll down for 20/21. It could be wrong but i've found others very similar. 

This is their wages while we were in the championship. Now that we have been promoted, they are likely to be paid significantly more, meaning that the cost of getting rid of them will be higher than you suggest.

[Badger 2,405]

9 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'm sure every club has their 'deadpool' and ours is starting to grow a bit. Needs a bit of thinning pretty drastically.

It would be a shame if we have to lose some of our promising youngsters to finance the likes of Drmic and Leitner.

To "thin it" will probably require us to pay up their contract. If we get rid of them, either by loan or sale/ mutually agreed termination, we will still have to pay the vast majority of their contracts. I am sure we will have done so with Heisse.

Regrettably, it will cost us several million.

[Badger 2,405]

10 hours ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

But does happen at other clubs.. as I mentioned in another thread Brighton and Palace have some first team on double and triple the wage of some others in the same team. Watford do too and am sure many others, all teams we will be wanting to compete with. This fixation with paying players the same or they become unhappy isn’t so black and white, players and agents will always be pushing to get the best deal but I would wager they want to be playing PL first and foremost.

Palace have just released 22 players, although still trying to negotiate with some. This kind of suggests that they are not happy with their wage structure, so perhaps not the best model to copy?

[andyc24_uk 59]

Heise gone, I'd be surprised if we release the others immediately as we'll probably try to find clubs for them, even if it's on a free transfer or another season out on loan but I expect Leitner at least to be paid off and released on a free if he's not moved on by the end of the transfer window. Klose actually I'd probably keep around if nobody else comes in for him, don't register him in the PL squad but he could have value in cup games and as an experienced head and mentor in the dressing room, especially now Tettey has gone.

Placheta needs to go out on loan for sure, meaning we probably want to keep Onel around as cover/a different option with some pace. Hugill I don't think is particularly special but hasn;t done anything wrong and offers us a very different option up top for games where it's needed... I think Idah probably needs a season out on loan to be honest, he didn't really get what he needed last year because of his injuries. 

[sgncfc 1,223]

Wages are market driven, just like transfer fees. Players who can go and earn more elsewhere will probably do so - it's very rare for them to hang around being underpaid. Huckerby made very public statements to that effect and I'm sure there have been others, but Buendia was clearly never staying once he found out how much he could get at an "ambitious" Aston Villa.

£80k a week for a £40m rated player is actually still on the low side of what others are paid, yet no one else came in for him at that level - that really should tell you everything you need to know. Godfrey, for example, is supposedly on £77k a week at Everton and he was a £20-25m player. Both will also have got 5% of the fee. All very serious, life changing dosh for us. Not so much for elite footballers who are competing with other elite footballers. Buendia is training with a bunch of guys who earn hundreds of thousands of pounds a week; they're probably still taking the p))) out of his £80k.

Of course we could have tried to match such demands but why would we? Could it be that SW/DF actually don't agree with everyone else that without him we are doomed?

If Aarons is worth £30m (a big if) then he should be on about £60-75k a week. Should we pay him that to stop him leaving too?  Cantwell won't sign a contract extension - there's no chance he will until he sees how this season pans out. If he has a good year we won't be able to hold onto him next summer.

Norwich City is not in the £80k a week league yet - and we probably never will be. 

 

[Yobocop 1,096]

On 10/06/2021 at 16:37, KeiranShikari said:

I'd add Stieperman and even a Hugil or Hernandez to that list.

Thankfully a lot of these shoulf still be on their championship wage.

Pleased your not in charge of our transfers then 😉 

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

Everyone love Hernandez.

[RugbyCanary 94]

If hugill isn't what we think is needed next season......how's about a keiffer Moore type??