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Petriix

Am I the only one...

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23 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

He was one of the highest chance creators in the league. Not his fault of those chances aren’t taken 

I love Emi so don't really want to go down this route but there is a bit of a lack of understanding here. The Premier League records 'big chances created' i.e chances where you're more likely to score from than not:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created

Emi Buendia was 18th that season with 9. He got 7 assists, so we only really missed 2 big chances that were created by him.

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23 minutes ago, Wrathofthefarkely said:

You build a team around players like him. 

You make a statement of intent by going up and keeping your best player. 

No other team going up will sell their best player. 

Its a sh*tshow.

And don't come back with the rubbish about him wanting to go. He's under contract. Zaha wants to go but has been kept at Palace for two years. 

The fact the only example people can come up with really is Zaha and one or two others shows just how unusual it is to keep hold of a player that wants to move, has a bigger club interested in them and willing to pay the fee wanted.

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9 minutes ago, Petriix said:

It's not about blindly clutching at straws for justification. It's more that I'm saying £33M rising to £40M seems like a good deal for us. Is Emi really one of the top 100 players in the world? This money puts the transfer fee inside the top 100 sales of all time. Is he really worth more than that for us to keep?

I'm not saying Emi isn't fantastic, just not perfect and definitely not so good that we should refuse to sell at all costs. How much do you think we should hold out for? £50M? £60M? More?

The transfer only puts him in the top 100 players in the world if you discount every single player who hasn't been transferred whatsoever, or was transferred as a youngster and then developed into a top player. So that bears absolutely no relevance. 

I personally think our best chance would've been something like 

  • So we already promised Emi we'd let him move on after he stayed with us in the championship, put a price tag of say £45-50mil on his head and don't try to generate any kind of interest in him like we did at the start of the window. 
  • Tell him we will only let him go to the right club (i.e. top 6 club or European equivalent), and certainly won't be accepting bids from clubs we should consider to be in direct competition with next season. 
  • To raise the funds needed to improve the team put Aarons up for grabs in the same way we have Buendia and get a bidding war going for him (its not like there hasn't been interest in him).
  • Get £25 - 30 mil for Aarons, plus the £20-30 mil budget we already had (before any sales and after the Gibson / Giannoulis fees - as noted in the Athletic) and we've then got a sizeable amount to buy players and still bolster the team.
  • Strengthen on the basis that Buendia is staying, but buy a number 10 who could act as competition for the Cantwell / Buendia position as an insurance option if Buendia does end up going and maybe even another right sided wing player. 
  • Therefore whatever happens then we have prepared for his sale and won't be scrambling around at the end of the window, its kind of exactly what we did last year when we bought Placheta, Dowell etc without losing anyone in that position. We were working on the assumption that one or more of these players could go yet we strengthened before the sales even happened. 

 

 

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My thoughts exactly Hank.

I think some of the disagreement may come from what’s expected to result from the sale in terms of summer transfers, perhaps I might know where the good decision camp are coming from if I knew what you are now expecting in terms of numbers in and money spent (and I include the inevitable Max sale) happy to go first.. 3 signed and 2 loans, total fees £25m and wages ave 30k.

(the reason I’m unhappy is because I think this should of been achieved without selling Emi)

Edited by Son Ova Gunn

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13 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

'He is the type of player you build a team around'

 

Tiny Spurs, selling Kane no Ambition I tell you

That thought had crossed my mind too.

Many a large club - even the big six - have to accept that their 'stars' may move on for any number of reasons. 

I see Arsenal fans want Grealish 🙂

 

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4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I love Emi so don't really want to go down this route but there is a bit of a lack of understanding here. The Premier League records 'big chances created' i.e chances where you're more likely to score from than not:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created

Emi Buendia was 18th that season with 9. He got 7 assists, so we only really missed 2 big chances that were created by him.

That's still pretty impressive, especially in the team which finished bottom. It's in stark contrast to his 1 goal from 40 shots; although he apparently only missed one 'big chance' where Pukki missed 11. He is undoubtedly a great player, that's why we've been able to get so much money for him.

7 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

The transfer only puts him in the top 100 players in the world if you discount every single player who hasn't been transferred whatsoever, or was transferred as a youngster and then developed into a top player. So that bears absolutely no relevance. 

I personally think our best chance would've been something like 

  • So we already promised Emi we'd let him move on after he stayed with us in the championship, put a price tag of say £45-50mil on his head and don't try to generate any kind of interest in him like we did at the start of the window. 
  • Tell him we will only let him go to the right club (i.e. top 6 club or European equivalent), and certainly won't be accepting bids from clubs we should consider to be in direct competition with next season. 
  • To raise the funds needed to improve the team put Aarons up for grabs in the same way we have Buendia and get a bidding war going for him (its not like there hasn't been interest in him).
  • Get £25 - 30 mil for Aarons, plus the £20-30 mil budget we already had (before any sales and after the Gibson / Giannoulis fees - as noted in the Athletic) and we've then got a sizeable amount to buy players and still bolster the team.
  • Strengthen on the basis that Buendia is staying, but buy a number 10 who could act as competition for the Cantwell / Buendia position as an insurance option if Buendia does end up going and maybe even another right sided wing player. 
  • Therefore whatever happens then we have prepared for his sale and won't be scrambling around at the end of the window, its kind of exactly what we did last year when we bought Placheta, Dowell etc without losing anyone in that position. We were working on the assumption that one or more of these players could go yet we strengthened before the sales even happened. 

That's a great plan. But it's not necessarily realistic. Maybe no one has actually offered us that kind of money for Aarons and maybe no one would come close to that £45-50M for Emi.

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20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The fact the only example people can come up with really is Zaha and one or two others shows just how unusual it is to keep hold of a player that wants to move, has a bigger club interested in them and willing to pay the fee wanted.

Okay why don't you switch it the other way and give all those examples of newly promoted teams selling their best player to another club - a mid-level prem club at that too. 

Perhaps there aren't many examples that exactly fit all of your criteria above, but the bit in bold is what sets us apart. There aren't many examples because most clubs wouldn't set up stall in the same way from a selling position as we have done. 

Do you not think there would be suitors for Sarr or Toney, if they were advertised for sale for a fairly modest fee?

However I would bet if their higher-ups were questioned about these players availability they would be told to promptly f off. Whereas we just try to generate as much interest as we can for a quick sale. 

And yes I imagine nearly all of those players would still move to a top club if they were offered a bigger and better contract. That isn't unique to Buendia or our situation.

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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11 hours ago, Petriix said:

I don't think it's a given that selling Emi has to weaken our overall squad. We can't be so dependant on a single player who might get injured or suspended, lose form or even throw their toys and stop playing well.

He's also not a one-off. We're constantly developing talent out of potential. There's no reason why we can't keep doing it. This creates space for other players to step up.

I'm hopeful that we will start the season with a better squad, more capable of surviving in the Premier League than the one which just won the Championship.

However, so many think he is the most talented player ever to play for us. Meaning they don't come along that often. Personally, I don't see where Teemu is going to get his supply from.

Look, I am not saying the club has let us down. I am just saying that the sale indicates we do not have the structure in place, yet, to look to stay long term in the EPL.

Apart from Maddison, and maybe Godfrey, we haven't sold on our top players to clubs who are much better than us apart from their ability to generate money for players.

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On one of the recent pink un articles on the front page Conor Southwell reckons we have at most 15m to spend before selling Emi. We're unlikely to commit the whole fee on new signings so I reckon as it stands we still only have about 30m tops to spend. I think we need to sell Aarons as well before we can have any great freedom in the transfer market and be able to pay competitive wages and attract players who are both physical enough for the PL and technical enough to work under Farke. 

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1 minute ago, Petriix said:

 

That's a great plan. But it's not necessarily realistic. Maybe no one has actually offered us that kind of money for Aarons and maybe no one would come close to that £45-50M for Emi.

Well we had more interest for Aarons last season than we did Buendia, with Bayern showing interest and Barca making an offer, Everton also reportedly interested for months. You'd think with that kind of interest they'd be a lot of smaller sized clubs (such as Villa) who would go for him. 

So I think its fair to say we could have put him up for grabs and got a decent fee, obviously not as much as Buendia but still plenty enough for an unprecedented level of spending. 

And if no one came close to £45 million for Emi then fan-bloody-tastic! We get to keep him and have the best possible chance of staying up (IMO). 

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Just now, Christoph Stiepermann said:

On one of the recent pink un articles on the front page Conor Southwell reckons we have at most 15m to spend before selling Emi. We're unlikely to commit the whole fee on new signings so I reckon as it stands we still only have about 30m tops to spend. I think we need to sell Aarons as well before we can have any great freedom in the transfer market and be able to pay competitive wages and attract players who are both physical enough for the PL and technical enough to work under Farke. 

Athletic quoted £20-30 mil (after all transfer fees already owed for Gibson / Giannoulis), so who knows. 

I'd wager that we fully reinvest the Emi proceeds, I'm expecting us to spend around £50 mil before selling anyone else.

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Who gives a monkies how much we've made on Emi? We all know he's worth far more than that, especially to us. Jut check the win %age with him and without him. I'm never a doomsayer, but we're down already...unless we put an amazing signing out of the bag, and let face it, we havent signed anywone amazing in 2 seasons now.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Athletic quoted £20-30 mil (after all transfer fees already owed for Gibson / Giannoulis), so who knows. 

I'd wager that we fully reinvest the Emi proceeds, I'm expecting us to spend around £50 mil before selling anyone else.

Possibly both true. 15m on transfer fees but a total budget of around 25m including wages and other costs. Still not enough for me though and I think we always needed to sell Emi and one more. 

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Guys, look at it from Emi's point of view.

Even f he stays we will still be (joint) favourites for the drop. Villa 'should' survive. Personally I think Emi thinks 2 years there in the EPL spotlight and if he does really well then its the one of the top 6. 

Then there is also the question of his personal terms - He can no doubt command a much higher salary at Villa than Norwich are willing to pay - notabably because it would unbalance the rest of the team!

All in all the right decision for everybody.

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5 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Possibly both true. 15m on transfer fees but a total budget of around 25m including wages and other costs. Still not enough for me though and I think we always needed to sell Emi and one more. 

...we've never broken the £10m+ barrier, I just can't see it. Here are the players we sold over £10m.

Emi Buendia - £33m (potentially rising to £38m) - Aston Villa
Ben Godfrey - £25m (potentially rising to £30m) - Everton
James Maddison - £21m (potentially rising to £24m) - Leicester
Jamal Lewis - £15m (potentially rising to £17m) - Newcastle 
Robbie Brady - £13m - Burnley 
Alex Pritchard - £12m - Huddersfield 
Nathan Redmond - £11m - Southampton 
Josh Murphy - £11m - Cardiff 
Jacob Murphy - £10m (potentially rising to £12.5m) - Newcastle 
 

 

 

ncfc10m.png

Edited by spencer 1970

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19 minutes ago, spencer 1970 said:

...we've never broken the £10m+ barrier, I just can't see it. Here are the players we sold over £10m.

Emi Buendia - £33m (potentially rising to £38m) - Aston Villa
Ben Godfrey - £25m (potentially rising to £30m) - Everton
James Maddison - £21m (potentially rising to £24m) - Leicester
Jamal Lewis - £15m (potentially rising to £17m) - Newcastle 
Robbie Brady - £13m - Burnley 
Alex Pritchard - £12m - Huddersfield 
Nathan Redmond - £11m - Southampton 
Josh Murphy - £11m - Cardiff 
Jacob Murphy - £10m (potentially rising to £12.5m) - Newcastle 
 

 

 

ncfc10m.png

Your points are true S1970. Yet I will have a small friendly side wager with you that we will break the £10m barrier this time. And probably twice.

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3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Your points are true S1970. Yet I will have a small friendly side wager with you that we will break the £10m barrier this time. And probably twice.

100% we will

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I'm sure there was pressure from the player / agent to leave. There was probably a gentleman's agreement that promotion = letting him go. That said without Emi we don't get promoted and without Emi (IMO) we now don't stay up. It's not 40 million its 33 million, if you look at the squads at Southampton Burnley, Brighton etc (our relegation rivals), 33 million buys you 2 average premiership performers. We can't use this money to drastically alter the quality of our team and we aren't going to attract anyone that would change games the way EMI would.

This isn't a good deal, it's confirmed relegation IMO. I'm sure that there is more to the story and Webber felt he had to sell quickly to start buying but this fee isn't going to equal a squad revolution and one of our only game changers has gone to a rival.

I get the arguments that you have to show potential signings that you won't hold them back but .... he's not going to Madrid or Paris, he's going to 10th / 11th place Villa. Not exactly holding him back to refuse transfer unless its a club with European football.

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4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Your points are true S1970. Yet I will have a small friendly side wager with you that we will break the £10m barrier this time. And probably twice.

A wager you would win.🤓

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Just now, hertfordyellow said:

I'm sure there was pressure from the player / agent to leave. There was probably a gentleman's agreement that promotion = letting him go. That said without Emi we don't get promoted and without Emi (IMO) we now don't stay up. It's not 40 million its 33 million, if you look at the squads at Southampton Burnley, Brighton etc (our relegation rivals), 33 million buys you 2 average premiership performers. We can't use this money to drastically alter the quality of our team and we aren't going to attract anyone that would change games the way EMI would.

This isn't a good deal, it's confirmed relegation IMO. I'm sure that there is more to the story and Webber felt he had to sell quickly to start buying but this fee isn't going to equal a squad revolution and one of our only game changers has gone to a rival.

I get the arguments that you have to show potential signings that you won't hold them back but .... he's not going to Madrid or Paris, he's going to 10th / 11th place Villa. Not exactly holding him back to refuse transfer unless its a club with European football.

That might be true if we were only shopping in the EPL and the EFL, but we won't be.

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12 hours ago, Petriix said:

Am I the only one who thinks this is the best piece of business the club has ever done?

We've turned a £1.6M unknown player into a £40M star. We've made at least £30M profit on him and (again) proven ourselves as the best place to come to further your career. We've even got the 10% sell-on clause so we'll cash in again if he moves for mega money later on.

I love Emi, and will always remember his incredible vision and creativity at times, but he is far from the perfect footballer. He was wonderful in the Championship but slightly lacking in the Premier League, at least for us last time around. He really improved his workrate and discipline under Farke but there is no guarantee that another coach will get the same level out of him. He lacks physically and is freakishly bad at set pieces. He might carry on improving, but he could well have already peaked and actually find it hard to shine in a different team. We afforded him a lot of freedom that he will not find elsewhere. The step up is big.

He might end up looking like a steal at £40M. But he's the perfect advert for young players to come to Norwich. It's clear now that we won't hold someone against their will and will allow them to move when it suits all parties. And we arguably need more ability across the whole squad rather than concentrated in one player.

Players come and go. Some stick in your mind. Some help to create amazing memories. But none are bigger than the club itself. The money we are receiving is astronomical, especially against the backdrop of falling revenues for most clubs. There will be some bargains out there and I don't doubt that we will soon start to see the next crop of young players emerging into the fringes of the first team. It's exciting times and this is a sign of the incredible success of our model.

In some ways I can get all of this, I can understand the logic of it but I'm still not on board.

As a fan, my main interest is wanting to see Norwich be the best football team they can be. I take no real joy or excitement in being a finishing school for talented youngsters who then go on to achieve their actual ambitions elsewhere. I don't celebrate the fact we've sold players for large profits because, as long as the club isn't going bust, I don't care about the balance sheets. Making £30m in profit is only interesting to me if it creates a better team on the pitch. 

I'm not unrealistic- I get every club outside of a select few has to sell in some circumstances. I didn't complain about the sales of Maddison, Godfrey, Lewis etc. These were good players playing at a level below where they should have been, moving to get something we couldn't offer them and to help us out financially. I'm aware Emi was never going to spent his career here and have a testimonial and I had even argued the wisdom of selling Aarons this season in order to increase our transfer budget. 

Loads on here told us that the pathetic season we had two years ago was OK because we were setting up for 'next time to be different.' Doesn't look like that to me now. We clearly can't convince our best player that his ambitions can be met here, at least in the very short term but Villa can. A team we finished above in the Championship, a team who were promoted with us, have left us behind in two seasons and can now convince Buendia that his ambitions can be met there when they can't be here.  To me that is depressing and leaves me feeling hollow about this whole 'model' which, right now, feels much more about making loads of money on player sales than it does about being an actual better football team. At some point you need to keep your best players and surround them with talent to let them and the club progress together. Instead we sell even when we don't need to.

Of course we could reinvest the Emi money and stay up and if we do all this complaining will look stupid. But I just don't see it right now and I'm certainly not excited about the signing the next Buendia to sell in two years time to another mid table club who can provide him with more ambition. Good for you if you are but it isn't for me.

 

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4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

That might be true if we were only shopping in the EPL and the EFL, but we won't be.

Most of the players i'm talking about came from Dutch, Belgian, French leagues TBH. As I said, take a look, all the fees are around 14-16 million

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10 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

I get the arguments that you have to show potential signings that you won't hold them back but .... he's not going to Madrid or Paris, he's going to 10th / 11th place Villa. Not exactly holding him back to refuse transfer unless its a club with European football.

Villa are reported to be paying him £75,000 a week. They have billionaire owners who seem to be happy to throw huge amounts of money at the club in order to compete for European football spots (they're now after Ward-Prowse). Find us a beneficent billionaire like that and I'll agree with you that we should be holding on to a player like Buendia.

Edited by horsefly
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4 minutes ago, king canary said:

In some ways I can get all of this, I can understand the logic of it but I'm still not on board.

As a fan, my main interest is wanting to see Norwich be the best football team they can be. I take no real joy or excitement in being a finishing school for talented youngsters who then go on to achieve their actual ambitions elsewhere. I don't celebrate the fact we've sold players for large profits because, as long as the club isn't going bust, I don't care about the balance sheets. Making £30m in profit is only interesting to me if it creates a better team on the pitch. 

I'm not unrealistic- I get every club outside of a select few has to sell in some circumstances. I didn't complain about the sales of Maddison, Godfrey, Lewis etc. These were good players playing at a level below where they should have been, moving to get something we couldn't offer them and to help us out financially. I'm aware Emi was never going to spent his career here and have a testimonial and I had even argued the wisdom of selling Aarons this season in order to increase our transfer budget. 

Loads on here told us that the pathetic season we had two years ago was OK because we were setting up for 'next time to be different.' Doesn't look like that to me now. We clearly can't convince our best player that his ambitions can be met here, at least in the very short term but Villa can. A team we finished above in the Championship, a team who were promoted with us, have left us behind in two seasons and can now convince Buendia that his ambitions can be met there when they can't be here.  To me that is depressing and leaves me feeling hollow about this whole 'model' which, right now, feels much more about making loads of money on player sales than it does about being an actual better football team. At some point you need to keep your best players and surround them with talent to let them and the club progress together. Instead we sell even when we don't need to.

Of course we could reinvest the Emi money and stay up and if we do all this complaining will look stupid. But I just don't see it right now and I'm certainly not excited about the signing the next Buendia to sell in two years time to another mid table club who can provide him with more ambition. Good for you if you are but it isn't for me.

 

My thoughts 100%

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It does seem devastating at first because, like so many things, it's the hope that kills you...

We did well to keep him after relegation and deep down, even though we expected him to leave, there is always that glimmer of hope that says he is happy enough to stay again if Webber/Farke can persuade him.

It really is the nature of the beast now that our place in the money and agent-driven pecking order means there are no more Tom Finney or Matt Le Tissier type players who stay at clubs but win very little.

The outrage at Chris Sutton's sale was more justified because we were lied to and football was still a more level playing field and we had real potential for success at the time.

Hark at me, I still haven't got over selling Kevin Reeves and refuse to sit in the River End.

 

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2 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

We clearly can't convince our best player that his ambitions can be met here, at least in the very short term but Villa can. A team we finished above in the Championship, a team who were promoted with us, have left us behind in two seasons and can now convince Buendia that his ambitions can be met there when they can't be here. 

As I said above, Villa are now owned by billionaires who are throwing massive amounts of money at the club in order to compete for European competition spots. They are fully expected to break their transfer record again (Ward-Prowse is today's speculation). They are now a world apart from the situation they were in when we finished above them in the champs. Whether these owners turn out to be genuine or shysters time will tell. But what is clear is that we would never have come close to being able to offer Buendia £75,000 a week.

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1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Villa are reported to be paying him £75,000 a week. They have billionaire owners who seem to be happy to throw huge amounts of money at the club in order to compete for European football spots (they're now after Ward-Prowse). Find us a beneficent billionaire like that and I'll agrree with you that we should be holding on to a player like Buendia.

He has 3 years on his contract. What Villa are willing to pay him is irrelevant. He won't be on peanuts at Norwich and is probably at the top of our wage list. We didn't have to sell him at the start of June for 33 million. This obsession with balance sheets and 'making a profit' like they are playing Tycoon is a mystery to me.  Emi is irreplaceable to this team right now, no one is near his level, he is the difference between staying up and relegation which will cost the club quadruple and will cement us as a yo yo club (which will deter ambitious players from joining). It's such a short sighted move. 

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3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

As I said above, Villa are now owned by billionaires who are throwing massive amounts of money at the club in order to compete for European competition spots. They are fully expected to break their transfer record again (Ward-Prowse is today's speculation). They are now a world apart from the situation they were in when we finished above them in the champs. Whether these owners turn out to be genuine or shysters time will tell. But what is clear is that we would never have come close to being able to offer Buendia £75,000 a week.

It's funny because a couple of seasons ago we had plenty on here saying to those that complained about our **** poor attempts to strethen our squad that 'at least we didn't do a Villa, £100m to only just stay up!' 

Now it's 'we can't possibly compete with Villa, they can obviously offer Emi much more than we can.'

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30 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Your points are true S1970. Yet I will have a small friendly side wager with you that we will break the £10m barrier this time. And probably twice.

I hope so mate.

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2 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

He has 3 years on his contract. What Villa are willing to pay him is irrelevant. He won't be on peanuts at Norwich and is probably at the top of our wage list. We didn't have to sell him at the start of June for 33 million. This obsession with balance sheets and 'making a profit' like they are playing Tycoon is a mystery to me.  Emi is irreplaceable to this team right now, no one is near his level, he is the difference between staying up and relegation which will cost the club quadruple and will cement us as a yo yo club (which will deter ambitious players from joining). It's such a short sighted move. 

He has at least tripled his wage (I don't know what your personal wealth is but if you consider that irrelevant you're a very lucky boy). We could have waited to the end of the transfer window and maybe sold him for a million or two more and then been held to ransom as we desperately searched for replacements to slot straight into the team (not a great strategy for bedding in new recruits or getting the best deals). No player is indispensible (Suarez was head and shoulders Liverpool's best player yet they went to win the league with out him) ditto Ronaldo etc, etc. Buendia didn't save us from relegation last time, but maybe a much stronger defence will stand a better chance this time. However, I fully admit I don't possess the power of precognition that you seem to possess so I'm just going to have to hope that Webber has got this gamble right.

As for your comment about this detering ambitious players from joining us, I can only assume you are having a laugh. Buendia's story is one of a failed Real Madrid youth team player who gets plucked from Spanish second division football by NCFC. He gets to play lots of football under a very progressive and talented management team and develops his potential at a phenomenal pace. Within a few seasons ends up in the PL on £75,000 a week, regarded as a genuine international top quality footballer. Yep! that would sure put me off if I was a talented youngster looking for a club that might give me the best opportunity to become a top player.

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