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Petriix

Am I the only one...

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7 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Slightly lacking in the premier league??? 
the man managed to get more assists than almost any other player in a team that put in their worst ever performance in that league. 

we just sold our best hope of survival and one of the few players at the club capable of stepping up to the level required. 

Well we shall see, it is the only option open to us.

But what we do know is that no Champions League side was interested and Arsenal weren't inclined to fight for him. He is not young, he will be 25 this year so he should be at or approaching his peak. He wanted to leave and Villa pretty much seemed his only option. They had the capacity to pay £33 million, add-ons and meet his wage demands. At present there is no evidence this is a stepping stone in any meaningful way.

We will miss him, but if one man was our best hope of staying up we were already in big trouble and leaving was the best decision for him.

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Not good business to sell your best player , but this is what we do time and time again and unfortunately this is why we will never be a long term premier league club . Can’t understand him going to villa though , can’t really see them as a big club . But his cut , wages and his agents cut must be an attraction. I doubt if we will replace him with a quality player . Arrons and Cantwell next ? 

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2 hours ago, Petriix said:

It's great how we can all see things differently. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and I know I'm in the minority. And I'm also tinged with sadness about losing him.

I'm just being pragmatic. While we didn't necessarily have to sell, everyone has their price. In a business sense, there always has to be a balance between retaining assets and selling when the time is right.

Imagine if we'd kept him for another season and he'd not delivered for us, there's no way that anyone would be paying this much off the back of an average Premier League season and relegation. Worse still he could get injured at any point and suddenly be worth nothing.

The sense of loss is all about what could have been: far from certain to actually happen. There's 33 million tangible and definite reasons (and a bunch of potential extras) to justify the sale.

Fair enough Petriix. But I actually don't think you are in the minority judging by the reactions to your OP. 

Maybe I have been glass half empty about it, but surely describing at is the 'best bit of business we've ever done' when we have not so much as even signed a replacement, nor started the season, and have no idea on how this transfer has or will impact the current and future group of players and how they will gel together, is more than a bit of an overreach?

That's more 'pretend the glass is completely full' than 'glass half full' about it! 

Let's face it anyone against the transfer describing it as 'the worst transfer ever done' at this early stage would be more than a bit derided. But if we end up cut adrift at the bottom having failed to sign adequate replacements across the team then it would be awful awful business. 

Similarly if we bolster well and have a successful season then that would be fantastic (though I would still perhaps question the timing and approach to the transfer as well as the decision to sell to Villa a little). 

But the point is surely we can't make any such bold statements until we at least have a vague idea of where we will be at? 

''Imagine if we'd kept him for another season and he'd not delivered for us, there's no way that anyone would be paying this much off the back of an average Premier League season and relegation. Worse still he could get injured at any point and suddenly be worth nothing.''

This passage feels a bit like trying to justify not going outside because you might get hit by a bus. I don't think there is any question about him not delivering for us, considering he had underlying chance creation stats in a team finishing 20th up there with Grealish and KDB last time out, and improved dramatically still in terms of championship contribution last season compared to his previous championship campaign. And I mean yes he COULD get injured, but its pretty unlikely to have any long-term damaging effect. Maddison was out for 3-4 months when we sold him and still got a near record championship fee for him!

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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41 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Slightly lacking in the premier league??? 
the man managed to get more assists than almost any other player in a team that put in their worst ever performance in that league. 

we just sold our best hope of survival and one of the few players at the club capable of stepping up to the level required. 

He got 7 assists in the Premier league so just a fact check for you there.

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7 minutes ago, Yellowhammer said:

Not good business to sell your best player , but this is what we do time and time again and unfortunately this is why we will never be a long term premier league club . Can’t understand him going to villa though , can’t really see them as a big club . But his cut , wages and his agents cut must be an attraction. I doubt if we will replace him with a quality player . Arrons and Cantwell next ? 

We will likely never be a long term premier league club because that is generally only applicable to the top 8 or so clubs.

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34 minutes ago, Yellowhammer said:

Not good business to sell your best player , but this is what we do time and time again and unfortunately this is why we will never be a long term premier league club . Can’t understand him going to villa though , can’t really see them as a big club . But his cut , wages and his agents cut must be an attraction. I doubt if we will replace him with a quality player . Arrons and Cantwell next ? 

This is a good reason he went there Yh. 4x his current wage. We all might take a new job if offered that? And at only 24 years old with a good 5/6 playing years ahead. It makes sense from his perspective.

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-aston-villa-agree-57m-buendia-deal-as-announcement-plan-revealed/

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48 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We will likely never be a long term premier league club because that is generally only applicable to the top 8 or so clubs.

Yeah well he probably just means more than 1 season at a time 😄 

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I got ridiculed when I suggested Emi might not do so well at Villa, but I agree entirely that he may not find it as good an environment to play his football. He won't have the same kind of expertise as he got at Norwich and there is no doubt Farke handled him really well.  A new club, weight of expectation, a club that under achieves, etc etc.  I think back to Ruel Fox - fabulous player for us, gutted when he left - yes, he had a good career after he left us, but never quite hit the heights that he did for us. I think Emi could be the same, needs careful handling too.  He would have been better staying imo and looking for a top club next season.

Edited by lake district canary

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we just sold our best hope of survival and one of the few players at the club capable of stepping up to the level required. 
1 hour ago, Yellowhammer said:

Not good business to sell your best player , but this is what we do time and time again and unfortunately this is why we will never be a long term premier league club .

You may disagree with the strategy lying behind Buendia's sale but you ought to at least acknowledge that there is indeed such a strategy motivating his sale. Our last experience of the PL showed we were seriously undermanned in defence (the back four and midfield), with the result we shipped a huge number of goals that ultimately cost us demotion. Webber is clearly of the view that releasing the funds to strengthen those areas increases our chances of survival this time round. Whether this turns out to be successful is something only time will tell, but I fail to understand why you can't at least acknowledge that this strategy is at least a very plausible one.

Edited by horsefly
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1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Slightly lacking in the premier league??? 
the man managed to get more assists than almost any other player in a team that put in their worst ever performance in that league. 

we just sold our best hope of survival and one of the few players at the club capable of stepping up to the level required. 

How many goals did he score? What was his conversion rate? (1 goal out of 40 shots, and that came after we were already relegated). He did create a bunch of chances, especially early on, but then he became pretty ineffective (along with the rest of the team).

In my opinion his diminutive stature gives him a certain limitation in terms of physically competing with the generally more athletic players. He might be better suited to a higher level team for that reason but he has a tendency to come off worse in the physical battles and often ends up sitting on the floor while the opposition break. He is also a liability when defending set pieces because of his lack of height.

I disagree that he would have been our best hope of survival. We need a better overall squad rather than being a one man team. This might well help us to achieve a better overall balance. That obviously depends on recruitment, but it's not clear cut. It also creates the opportunity for the next group of young players to step up.

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8 minutes ago, horsefly said:
we just sold our best hope of survival and one of the few players at the club capable of stepping up to the level required. 

You may disagree with the strategy lying behind Buendia's sale but you ought to at least acknowledge that there is indeed such a strategy motivating his sale. Our last experience of the PL showed we were seriously undermanned in defence (the back four and midfield), with the result we shipped a huge number of goals that ultimately cost us demotion. Webber is clearly of the view that releasing the funds to strengthen those areas increases our chances of survival this time round. Whether this turns out to be successful is something only time will tell, but I fail to understand why you can't at least acknowledge that this strategy is at least a very plausible one.

I can see that argument but considering we didn’t spend the sky money last promotion, then cashed in two jewels on demotion, had contracts set up for relegation, got the parachute payment and now have the promotion money again why we didn’t have enough money to start the strengthening while we wait for Max to depart. If you think we are going to spend £75m (15 already plus Emi plus Max money) I think you will be disappointed.

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Just now, Son Ova Gunn said:

I can see that argument but considering we didn’t spend the sky money last promotion, then cashed in two jewels on demotion, had contracts set up for relegation, got the parachute payment and now have the promotion money again why we didn’t have enough money to start the strengthening while we wait for Max to depart. If you think we are going to spend £75m (15 already plus Emi plus Max money) I think you will be disappointed.

Luckily I won't be disappointed because it has never occured to me we would spend anything approaching £75m. Webber has already admitted he was over cautious last time, no doubt because we were still experiencing a very challenging financial situation at the club. We are in much better shape this time round, and Webber has publicly promised to invest more to the cause of retaining PL status. I see nothing in his record to suggest he won't keep his word. 

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59 minutes ago, BigFish said:

But what we do know is that no Champions League side was interested and Arsenal weren't inclined to fight for him. He is not young, he will be 25 this year so he should be at or approaching his peak. He wanted to leave and Villa pretty much seemed his only option. They had the capacity to pay £33 million, add-ons and meet his wage demands. At present there is no evidence this is a stepping stone in any meaningful way.

We will miss him, but if one man was our best hope of staying up we were already in big trouble and leaving was the best decision for him.

I do wonder if that's his ceiling. If bigger clubs have looked at him at 24 and turned him down at that price, I can't see them changing their minds in a year or two.

I didn't want him to leave, and would have preferred that Max was first out of the door, but hopefully the increased transfer budget will give us a better shot of staying up.

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14 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I got ridiculed when I suggested Emi might not do so well at Villa, but I agree entirely that he may not find it as good an environment to play his football. He won't have the same kind of expertise as he got at Norwich and there is no doubt Farke handled him really well.  A new club, weight of expectation, a club that under achieves, etc etc.  I think back to Ruel Fox - fabulous player for us, gutted when he left - yes, he had a good career after he left us, but never quite hit the heights that he did for us. I think Emi could be the same, needs careful handling too.  He would have been better staying imo and looking for a top club next season.

All these years later, that sale of Ruel Fox still hurts. I wonder will I feel the same about this sale in 25+ years. Probably not, different stage of life. Still a difficult one to swallow though at this point. I'll reserve judgement until the end of the window. It's likely some sort of a 'conversation' took place last autumn and I suppose if those wage figures are accurate, you can't blame him. But it'll be painful to see him holding up the Villa jersey and taking the pitch against us this season. I wish him the best and we'll see how the squad takes shape. To paraphrase Webber, have we just removed one of our main 'guns?' I wonder how Teemu feels about this transfer? The players probably all had a fair idea this was going to happen.

Hasta luego Emi. 😥

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8 minutes ago, Petriix said:

In my opinion his diminutive stature gives him a certain limitation in terms of physically competing with the generally more athletic players. He might be better suited to a higher level team for that reason but he has a tendency to come off worse in the physical battles and often ends up sitting on the floor while the opposition break. He is also a liability when defending set pieces because of his lack of height.

Sorry but I just shook my head all the way through this. You have not been watching the same player as me. I just cannot believe anyone on here would agree with this. 

If he lacked physically in any way he would not have the absolutely freakish tackling and take-on statistics. He is one of the most tenacious pressing players I've ever seen and there's been more than numerous occasions where his relentless pressing and aggressive style absolute puts the fear in the opposition. I've also witnessed him hold off and retain possession in absolutely unbelievable circumstances. He could not do that without physicality. 

'He is liability when defending set pieces because of his height'

That might just be the worst thing you've ever said. That's like deriding Krul because he doesn't score enough goals for **** sake. 

You're killing me here, I think you've lost the plot a bit trying to justify it in your head. 

Emi is the most exceptional player I've ever seen for NCFC, stop trying to bring him down with utter nonsense criticisms which bear no relevance to his position on the pitch or the reality of his performances for the club. 

You're literally just using his height against him, all of these criticisms could be used against Messi, Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes etc etc. It's utter tosh mate, I'm sorry

 

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You're not alone. I actually consider it necessary businesses as the current squad with Buendia and a 15m odd transfer budget to bring in just a couple of new players definitely doesn't survive for me. We realistically need about 5 or 6 new players and this sale, along with selling Aarons will give us the scope to bring in players who can compete physically at this level. 

 

We can't carry on playing with 3 no.10's behind the striker next year because you can't consistently pass your way through PL defenses like you can in the Championship without outrageous quality. We have two technical no.10's, so we need to replace Buendia with a proper winger.

With Aarons he's better suited to a side that can always play on the front foot, for us he'll just get targeted for his height as he'll have to spend most of the games for us playing deep. It's too easy for opposition managers to crack us that way, just stick Wood, Benteke or Antonio or someone on Aarons to win every long ball, knock it into the space for a runner to latch onto and bang, we've got players running at our exposed defence, too easy. We need a bigger player there. 

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1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

 

Fair enough Petriix. But I actually don't think you are in the minority judging by the reactions to your OP. 

Maybe I have been glass half empty about it, but surely describing at is the 'best bit of business we've ever done' when we have not so much as even signed a replacement, nor started the season, and have no idea on how this transfer has or will impact the current and future group of players and how they will gel together, is more than a bit of an overreach?

That's more 'pretend the glass is completely full' than 'glass half full' about it! 

Let's face it anyone against the transfer describing it as 'the worst transfer ever done' at this early stage would be more than a bit derided. But if we end up cut adrift at the bottom having failed to sign adequate replacements across the team then it would be awful awful business. 

Similarly if we bolster well and have a successful season then that would be fantastic (though I would still perhaps question the timing and approach to the transfer as well as the decision to sell to Villa a little). 

But the point is surely we can't make any such bold statements until we at least have a vague idea of where we will be at? 

''Imagine if we'd kept him for another season and he'd not delivered for us, there's no way that anyone would be paying this much off the back of an average Premier League season and relegation. Worse still he could get injured at any point and suddenly be worth nothing.''

This passage feels a bit like trying to justify not going outside because you might get hit by a bus. I don't think there is any question about him not delivering for us, considering he had underlying chance creation stats in a team finishing 20th up there with Grealish and KDB last time out, and improved dramatically still in terms of championship contribution last season compared to his previous championship campaign. And I mean yes he COULD get injured, but its pretty unlikely to have any long-term damaging effect. Maddison was out for 3-4 months when we sold him and still got a near record championship fee for him!

It's objectively the biggest profit we've ever made on a player and it might well be the biggest transfer fee we ever receive. I genuinely don't think Emi is quite as good as the conjecture suggests: he did very well in the Championship, had half a season where he stood out in a fairly poor (if a little unlucky with injuries) Premier League team and represents a massive gamble for Villa at the price they're paying. He might go on to big things, but he could also fail to gel in their team and struggle to make an impact.

I would much rather support the sort of club that would develop the £1.6M player while paying him £15-20k per week than the club which blows up to £40M on that same player and pays him £80k+. We do not have the luxury of being able to make that kind of gamble. This is sensible, long-term thinking, consistent with the incredible transformation at the club under Webber. Whatever happens, we won't be struggling financially in the next few years. That's good business, otherwise Webber wouldn't have done it.

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26 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I got ridiculed when I suggested Emi might not do so well at Villa

Well it just comes across as a bit of a joke when you're arguing at long length how Arsenal would be a rubbish move for him, not even factoring in Villa. Yet when it happens and fans are (rightly) shocked and very disappointed at the move you start a thread effectively mocking everyone who has been upset by it. You're the one who should be the most upset based on your outlandish statements made before the transfer!

Your reasoning was he shouldn't go to Arsenal because he can hold off until a Man City type team come in for him.

Now you're saying he might struggle at Villa? 

Would any other Man City players struggle at Villa too? 

 

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

We will likely never be a long term premier league club because that is generally only applicable to the top 8 or so clubs.

.

Edited by Virtual reality

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

He got 7 assists in the Premier league so just a fact check for you there.

He was one of the highest chance creators in the league. Not his fault of those chances aren’t taken 

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13 minutes ago, Petriix said:

It's objectively the biggest profit we've ever made on a player and it might well be the biggest transfer fee we ever receive. I

Okay so I will give you 'the best single financial deal we have done', but no further context can be added at this stage. 

Whether it will be a good or bad deal for the club we will see. I'm happy to reserve overall judgement until then (though as I said I would question the nature of the transfer in various other ways). But let's not act like its already a fantastic decision by the club when we have no idea what the long term effects are. 

Edit to add that I would take that statement away about the deal if we went straight back down. The profit from the Buendia sale would be totally eclipsed by the lost TV revenues. 

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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Just now, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Well it just comes across as a bit of a joke when you're arguing at long length how Arsenal would be a rubbish move for him, not even factoring in Villa. Yet when it happens and fans are (rightly) shocked and very disappointed at the move you start a thread effectively mocking everyone who has been upset by it. You're the one who should be the most upset based on your outlandish statements made before the transfer!

Your reasoning was he shouldn't go to Arsenal because he can hold off until a Man City type team come in for him.

Now you're saying he might struggle at Villa? 

Would any other Man City players struggle at Villa too? 

 

I wasn't mocking everyone who was upset about it, I was mocking the trolling community who only turn up when they think they can pounce on a bit of negativity.

The implication I was giving about him staying was that he would have another season with us to develop, show his worth in a good side (us) and then be in a better position to be looked at by the likes of Man City at the end of the season.   Yeah, the Arsenal thing was true - I don't rate that club either.

Villa is a sideways move imo career wise, money wise better, yes, but will he enjoy his football there? Who knows, but it will be interesting to follow his career from here.

 

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You build a team around players like him. 

You make a statement of intent by going up and keeping your best player. 

No other team going up will sell their best player. 

Its a sh*tshow.

And don't come back with the rubbish about him wanting to go. He's under contract. Zaha wants to go but has been kept at Palace for two years. 

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1 minute ago, Wrathofthefarkely said:

You build a team around players like him. 

You make a statement of intent by going up and keeping your best player. 

No other team going up will sell their best player. 

Its a sh*tshow.

And don't come back with the rubbish about him wanting to go. He's under contract. Zaha wants to go but has been kept at Palace for two years. 

Who bid for Zaha then?

Don't forget, he had his big move to United and flubbed it. That's why he's back at Palace.

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15 minutes ago, Petriix said:

It's objectively the biggest profit we've ever made on a player and it might well be the biggest transfer fee we ever receive. I genuinely don't think Emi is quite as good as the conjecture suggests: he did very well in the Championship, had half a season where he stood out in a fairly poor (if a little unlucky with injuries) Premier League team and represents a massive gamble for Villa at the price they're paying. He might go on to big things, but he could also fail to gel in their team and struggle to make an impact.

I would much rather support the sort of club that would develop the £1.6M player while paying him £15-20k per week than the club which blows up to £40M on that same player and pays him £80k+. We do not have the luxury of being able to make that kind of gamble. This is sensible, long-term thinking, consistent with the incredible transformation at the club under Webber. Whatever happens, we won't be struggling financially in the next few years. That's good business, otherwise Webber wouldn't have done it.

What you are describing there is a championship club. The average wage in premier is what 45-50k per week which is why I think we will struggle to buy all these premiership ready players that people are expecting

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5 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Sorry but I just shook my head all the way through this. You have not been watching the same player as me. I just cannot believe anyone on here would agree with this. 

If he lacked physically in any way he would not have the absolutely freakish tackling and take-on statistics. He is one of the most tenacious pressing players I've ever seen and there's been more than numerous occasions where his relentless pressing and aggressive style absolute puts the fear in the opposition. I've also witnessed him hold off and retain possession in absolutely unbelievable circumstances. He could not do that without physicality. 

'He is liability when defending set pieces because of his height'

That might just be the worst thing you've ever said. That's like deriding Krul because he doesn't score enough goals for **** sake. 

You're killing me here, I think you've lost the plot a bit trying to justify it in your head. 

Emi is the most exceptional player I've ever seen for NCFC, stop trying to bring him down with utter nonsense criticisms which bear no relevance to his position on the pitch or the reality of his performances for the club. 

You're literally just using his height against him, all of these criticisms could be used against Messi, Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes etc etc. It's utter tosh mate, I'm sorry

 

It's not about blindly clutching at straws for justification. It's more that I'm saying £33M rising to £40M seems like a good deal for us. Is Emi really one of the top 100 players in the world? This money puts the transfer fee inside the top 100 sales of all time. Is he really worth more than that for us to keep?

I'm not saying Emi isn't fantastic, just not perfect and definitely not so good that we should refuse to sell at all costs. How much do you think we should hold out for? £50M? £60M? More?

I genuinely think that the better teams can afford the luxury of playing shorter players. We were absolutely murdered at set pieces last time in the Premier League largely because of our overall lack of physical stature. A significant factor is that lower level teams like us tend to give away more dangerous freekicks so we do need to build our squad to be able to defend them. It's not because Emi's not good enough technically, but a recognition that we need to get the right balance between these attributes and, on the whole, got it wrong last time.

 

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Now it's starting to scab over, it was the right time to sell Emi, perhaps we should have got a little more up-front, but otherwise a good fee. 

A fantastic player, technically best player I've ever seen for us. Last time out against streetwise PL teams - Did he concede silly freekicks in dangerous areas - yes, did he lose possession in-front of the back 4 attempting tricks against a high press - yes. Can we win games without him - yes. My god his work rate is fantastic and he's a hell of a player, but he isn't perfect. I'm not going to mob on him because he was clearly our best player in the Championship. Perhaps his decision making has improved, maybe not, maybe it wasn't tested as much this year. 

As it has been said 1000 times this could fund an overall better starting 11 than one with him in it. I'm currently hopeful, and I'm hoping we aren't let down.

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I understand your explanation & agree Petriix. Good business. However, £35m to me is cheap compared to other deals. And wished Emi had gone to a Club playing European Football. even though I detest all our so called Big Greedy Massively in Debt Clubs.

 

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6 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Okay so I will give you 'the best single financial deal we have done', but no further context can be added at this stage. 

Whether it will be a good or bad deal for the club we will see. I'm happy to reserve overall judgement until then (though as I said I would question the nature of the transfer in various other ways). But let's not act like its already a fantastic decision by the club when we have no idea what the long term effects are. 

Edit to add that I would take that statement away about the deal if we went straight back down. The profit from the Buendia sale would be totally eclipsed by the lost TV revenues. 

Do you think we were guaranteed survival if he stayed? What would be the long term effect of keeping him, getting relegated, and then letting him go for £10M in a year or two?

There's no way you can say with certainty that selling him has had any kind of impact on our future success, but you can definitely measure the financial security it brings us. Money in the bank to pay the bills while other clubs are struggling to make ends meet means that we'll be absolutely ideally placed to get promoted again if we do go down.

7 minutes ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

What you are describing there is a championship club. The average wage in premier is what 45-50k per week which is why I think we will struggle to buy all these premiership ready players that people are expecting

No, what I'm describing is a well run club which spends within its means and doesn't risk its future solvency on a few glorious transfers. I'm absolutely certain that Villa or one of a few other similar clubs will suffer a meteoric decline in the next few years where the millions they are spaffing up the wall will come back to bite them. We are better than that. 

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3 minutes ago, Walcombe canary said:

I understand your explanation & agree Petriix. Good business. However, £35m to me is cheap compared to other deals. And wished Emi had gone to a Club playing European Football. even though I detest all our so called Big Greedy Massively in Debt Clubs.

 

Which other deals?

Please show me an example of a lesser player moving for as much or more money. You'll probably need to consult this list. Sure, some of them flopped, but Emi hasn't been a proven success at the top level either.

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