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Midlands Yellow

Who’s in shock

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1 hour ago, curious yellow said:

Is that your idea of discussion? Sounds more like abuse

Oh,come on.......don't be such a snowflake 😉

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4 hours ago, Herman said:

Echo the others and wish you and your family all the best Faded Jaded. 👍

Indeed, there are more important things in life than players leaving.

best wishes to you all.

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Thing is if Max went to Barcelona and Emi had gone to Athletico Madrid as has been palusible - we'd only continue to be fanboys of these two excellent players. Their fortunes and successes could still be our own and we could champion them as ex-players we were proud of and fond of as they moved onto bigger and better things. I kind of feel like that about Maddison - though Leicester were once rivals they are way above us these days.

Im not sure I can feel the same way about Emi strutting his stuff in a Villa shirt. He's been a great servant and had a great relationship with the fans so we owe him our good fortune, but I cant be proud of anything he achieves for Villa in the way I could if he'd gone to Athletico for example

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1 minute ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Thing is if Max went to Barcelona and Emi had gone to Athletico Madrid as has been palusible - we'd only continue to be fanboys of these two excellent players. Their fortunes and successes could still be our own and we could champion them as ex-players we were proud of and fond of as they moved onto bigger and better things. I kind of feel like that about Maddison - though Leicester were once rivals they are way above us these days.

Im not sure I can feel the same way about Emi strutting his stuff in a Villa shirt. He's been a great servant and had a great relationship with the fans so we owe him our good fortune, but I cant be proud of anything he achieves for Villa in the way I could if he'd gone to Athletico for example

It's going to be fun watching Buendia and Grealish at each others throats though when Grealish doesn't pass to Buendia, and Buendia passes the ball to Watkins instead of Grealish!  The fallout is going to be marvellous.

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8 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

It's going to be fun watching Buendia and Grealish at each others throats though when Grealish doesn't pass to Buendia, and Buendia passes the ball to Watkins instead of Grealish!  The fallout is going to be marvellous.

At least Emi wont be on free-kicks or corners at Villa. That for me is the main part of his game he needs to improve

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15 hours ago, chicken said:

When is the deadline date for squad submission then?

All of the evidence I can see so far is a squad of players for the Copa America which does not include Buendia at this time. Eg the following:
https://www.sportsunfold.com/copa-america-squad/

Edit: Just found articles elsewhere that said that submission of squads deadline is 3rd June. So the above is in fact the final squad and Buendia is not in it.

Eg: https://www.nationalworld.com/sport/football/copa-america-2021-fixtures-squads-tv-schedule-and-host-as-south-american-football-tournament-is-confirmed-3258315

Three days before the tournament after the World Cup qualifiers have been played...players must have been in the provisional squad which haven’t been made public. Whole thing a mess and there’s allowances for injury and covid replacements. This tournament won’t be taken seriously and I’ve no interest now we have no (possible) representation.

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On 06/06/2021 at 14:59, curious yellow said:

So you think he got the best deal because of his reputation and that's not blind faith?

If we don't want to sell our best player, the best deal is to keep him and that's not inside information, it's common sense. 

It strikes me Villa tried to push this through while they could still afford him. 

The transfer window is not open yet. 

 

No, you are assuming we got the worst deal because it was Villa's first bid...

Which ignores that they had bid before and so had other teams.

Move on. Your "blind faith" argument has massively backfired. Webber has got top buck when selling our players so there's a track record.

Where as your theory has absolutely no basis to it - or as you would put it, relies upon "blind faith.

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9 minutes ago, chicken said:

No, you are assuming we got the worst deal because it was Villa's first bid...

Which ignores that they had bid before and so had other teams.

Move on. Your "blind faith" argument has massively backfired. Webber has got top buck when selling our players so there's a track record.

Where as your theory has absolutely no basis to it - or as you would put it, relies upon "blind faith.

No, I'm saying that if we'd waited we could have got a better deal or better still no deal at all. 

Farke said that we were hoping to keep Emi because we didn't need to sell unless it was" crazy money"

The truth is nobody knows what and how many offers were made, but some are trying to justify the deal because of their faith in Webber. That is trusting someone although they don't know the full facts. I'd call that blind faith although I'm not saying it's a bad thing. 

Webber has done a fantastic job here and deserves to be trusted. There are some that say we could have got more for Godfrey, the decision on Trybull, Drmic and Leitner has cost us a lot of money as has some of the loans we bought in the Prem. 

I stand by what I say and I won't change my mind in a year's time. We need to do something special but Webber and Farke are the best people for the job. 

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Im starting to accept he's gone, especially as we'd *have never* been able to match his £75K pw week wages...

...and then I stumble upon this. 😞

Marco Stiepermann AM 25,000 2022
Timm Klose CB 25,000 2022
Josip Drmic CF 22,500 2022
Onel Hernández LW 22,000 2023
Moritz Leitner CM 20,000 2022
Tom Trybull DM 20,000 2022
Rocky Bushiri CB 15,000 2021
Jordan Hugill CF 13,250 2023
    162,750

 

Do you ever get the feeling "we're doing it wrong"? I'd have Emi over these 8, and that still leave us bumper wages left over for 2 decent players (AM/ST?)

Is a smaller squad on bigger wages backed up with blooding youth* when needed the better solution?

(*It worked with Omobamidele this season. That alone could save us £5/10m)

You could arguably add these 2 to the list.

Sam Byram     RB    20,000    2023
Christoph Zimmermann    CB    19,500    2023

 

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2 hours ago, spencer 1970 said:

Im starting to accept he's gone, especially as we'd *have never* been able to match his £75K pw week wages...

...and then I stumble upon this. 😞

Marco Stiepermann AM 25,000 2022
Timm Klose CB 25,000 2022
Josip Drmic CF 22,500 2022
Onel Hernández LW 22,000 2023
Moritz Leitner CM 20,000 2022
Tom Trybull DM 20,000 2022
Rocky Bushiri CB 15,000 2021
Jordan Hugill CF 13,250 2023
    162,750

 

Do you ever get the feeling "we're doing it wrong"? I'd have Emi over these 8, and that still leave us bumper wages left over for 2 decent players (AM/ST?)

Is a smaller squad on bigger wages backed up with blooding youth* when needed the better solution?

(*It worked with Omobamidele this season. That alone could save us £5/10m)

You could arguably add these 2 to the list.

Sam Byram     RB    20,000    2023
Christoph Zimmermann    CB    19,500    2023

 

No. He hasn't gone JUST because of wages. They have helped. All in all, including the transfer fee etc the deal including wages, signing on fee and bonuses etc is around £60m. That is a hefty amount.

Standard wages alone, based on £75k pw, are £3.9m a year.

You can argue cutting some of the other players from the squad could allow us to pay his wages but then we are short in cover. Klose is on his way out and we'll need a replacement for him, hopefully one that is ready to improve our squad, so wages will need to be competitive. You can forget that source of freeing up wages.

With Buendia gone, arguably Hernandez, right now, is incredibly important to this squad. He is arguably the next best wide player we have and if someone new comes in he'll possibly be used to chop and change as needed.

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2 hours ago, curious yellow said:

No, I'm saying that if we'd waited we could have got a better deal or better still no deal at all. 

Both are examples of "blind faith". 

 

2 hours ago, curious yellow said:

Farke said that we were hoping to keep Emi because we didn't need to sell unless it was" crazy money"

Farke and Webber have both said that they expected one of our stars to be sold and that they would consider selling one of our leading players to provide funds to strengthen our squad. This was based on our last experience where strengthening the squad with loans and cheapies didn't pan out. The sentiment about not needing to sell was about us not being push overs and if a cheap shot came in, a la Barcelona for Aarons last season, the club would have no issue knocking it back strongly.

Also "crazy money" was defined by Webber who said he wouldn't pick up the phone for less than the club record transfer fee for a NCFC player - which was Godfrey last season.
 

2 hours ago, curious yellow said:

The truth is nobody knows what and how many offers were made, but some are trying to justify the deal because of their faith in Webber. That is trusting someone although they don't know the full facts. I'd call that blind faith although I'm not saying it's a bad thing. 

Webber has done a fantastic job here and deserves to be trusted. There are some that say we could have got more for Godfrey, the decision on Trybull, Drmic and Leitner has cost us a lot of money as has some of the loans we bought in the Prem. 

I stand by what I say and I won't change my mind in a year's time. We need to do something special but Webber and Farke are the best people for the job. 

The truth is we know there was more than one offer as more than one club made bids. It was also widely reported that the first offers from Villa and Arsenal had been turned down by the club. The real issue here is people seem to think that a transfer in football is someone calls up, offers an amount for a player and the club the offer is made to says yes or no and puts the phone down.

That isn't really how it works. There is a conversation, feedback and progress if the interested club is still keen. Much like how you never go in with your best offer on a house unless you have done your research and know the owners are likely to take what you are offering.

So it isn't "blind faith" to suggest that more offers had been made. Journalists close to the club and close to Villa had been reporting on this for at least a week before it was officially confirmed. That isn't "blind faith". It is "blind faith" to argue against that when you have nothing but a narrative you want to be true, to base your view on.

Webber has done a fantastic job here, he has brought in top £ for the players we have moved on. Murphy's, Pritchard, Lewis, Godfrey, Maddison and Buendia have all been very good deals for us. People may argue not but that tends to be because they have the benefit of hindsight or, yet again, they don't really get the whole football transfer shenanigans and they tend to believe that if they see player bought for £70m that isn't as good as Maddison, that he suddenly becomes worth £90m... It really just doesn't work like that.

You are entitled to stand by what you say, but being determined not to change your mind makes you a closed book and not one that allows things like "facts" to influence your view. You can count on my not seeking you out then to find out if your view has changed... 

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50 minutes ago, chicken said:

 


You are entitled to stand by what you say, but being determined not to change your mind makes you a closed book and not one that allows things like "facts" to influence your view. You can count on my not seeking you out then to find out if your view has changed... 

I can only admire your open mindedness for giving yourself the option to completely change your mind on something you're so convinced about. 

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“Despite us not wanting Emi to leave, once he made it clear that he wanted to go to Aston Villa, and they reached the level of deal we have got to, we were left with little option."

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The old white flag has gone up again on this season

I don’t blame Emi the spectacular lack of ambition of our owners caused him to leave

i am absolutely sick and tired of the club being held back by them . I wish they would just sell up and f@@@ off once and for all 

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4 hours ago, spencer 1970 said:

Im starting to accept he's gone, especially as we'd *have never* been able to match his £75K pw week wages...

...and then I stumble upon this. 😞

Marco Stiepermann AM 25,000 2022
Timm Klose CB 25,000 2022
Josip Drmic CF 22,500 2022
Onel Hernández LW 22,000 2023
Moritz Leitner CM 20,000 2022
Tom Trybull DM 20,000 2022
Rocky Bushiri CB 15,000 2021
Jordan Hugill CF 13,250 2023
    162,750

 

Do you ever get the feeling "we're doing it wrong"? I'd have Emi over these 8, and that still leave us bumper wages left over for 2 decent players (AM/ST?)

Is a smaller squad on bigger wages backed up with blooding youth* when needed the better solution?

(*It worked with Omobamidele this season. That alone could save us £5/10m)

You could arguably add these 2 to the list.

Sam Byram     RB    20,000    2023
Christoph Zimmermann    CB    19,500    2023

 

😭😭

We do seriously need to start to having a thin out, there's some dead money in that lot. 

 

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15 hours ago, curious yellow said:

I can only admire your open mindedness for giving yourself the option to completely change your mind on something you're so convinced about. 

I have an open mind, I base my views on the information at hand. I will take on board new information and adapt/alter in response to that.

Strangely, I don't tend to change my mind when someone is stamping their feet and telling people who's view they don't agree with that it's based all upon "blind faith" before telling them that we accepted the first bid, or that we would be far better off waiting until later in the transfer window etc.

That is called a view/opinion that is unsubstantiated. We don't know that a larger fee could have been achieved through waiting long for more bids to come in. That would take an act of faith in your prediction being correct. And not only that, but that your prediction, based on very little, is better than those officials at the club who are involved in buying and selling players as part of their job. Forgive me if I think the professionals are likely to have a better understanding.

Also, you choose to ignore many of the counter points anyone has made - first of all holding off for a bigger sum could mean we lose out on our preferred targets - especially if Buendia wanted to leave and did leave later in the summer.

As someone else said before, it's a little bit like a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Many players are on summer breaks or with their international sides. This is the best time to be looking to sign players. Clubs have an idea of what they want to do with their player squads, who is surplus, who they would like to sell to fund rebuilds etc. Most teams with any intelligence will look to try and sign players before the start of pre-season. It is less disruptive, and they start at the same time on the same page as everyone else.

There is also evidence to suggest that ALL transfer fees go up towards the end of a transfer window as teams become more desperate to sign players and pay premium for their desperation. Selling teams also demand it as a sort of compensation for losing a player so late on and leaving them so little time to find a replacement and get them integrated with their squad. The problem with this? Any player the club then looks to sign will also have an inflated price for the same reason - so it's a false economy. Not only that, but many of the preferred targets at the beginning of the summer will likely have moved on if they were going to or may have been convinced to stay, perhaps signing new contracts.

If that sounds at all familiar that is because that is how NCFC used to do things, or at least has done things in the past. That is not how the club has operated, generally, under Webber and Farke.

So when you talk of "blind faith" - yet again. And express that your view will never change - and decided to project that onto someone else - please do consider that their views may not be as flimsy and as reliant upon "blind faith" as your own. 

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Posted (edited)
On 06/06/2021 at 19:13, chicken said:

When you go to buy a new car they will always offer you an alternative to buying the car outright up front - lets face it, not a lot of people can drop that money. They offer something called finance.

Norwich have bought players on deals with instalments, but if we have indeed signed fewer on instalments it is because most of the players we have signed down the years haven't been expensive enough and teams have probably demanded we coughed up the £1.5-2mil in advance.

Remember, although we sold Sutton for a record breaking £5mil, it took us a long time to get to a position to  be able to spend £5million on a player. I think I am right in saying we have only a handful of players that have cost more than that in fact - RVW, Naismith and Klose off the top of my head.

Well obviously, but it’s incorrect and patronising as the club does to use this as the reason why we can’t sign players 60-100% of the sale value. Clearly there are are other reasons why we can’t and don’t sign players at these prices, but it’s dishonest to use phasing of finance as the justification. 

Edited by Jezzard

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Posted (edited)
On 06/06/2021 at 19:10, shefcanary said:

It's going to be fun watching Buendia and Grealish at each others throats though when Grealish doesn't pass to Buendia, and Buendia passes the ball to Watkins instead of Grealish!  The fallout is going to be marvellous.

Grealish will be off to Man City, it's been all in the news lately 

Edited by Haus

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On 10/06/2021 at 13:54, spencer 1970 said:

Im starting to accept he's gone, especially as we'd *have never* been able to match his £75K pw week wages...

...and then I stumble upon this. 😞

I'd suggest those numbers are nonsense.

Reason? The idea that Rocky Bushiri is on £15k a week is absolutely laughable, especially as the list has Hugill on less than him.

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2 hours ago, Jezzard said:

Well obviously, but it’s incorrect and patronising as the club does to use this as the reason why we can’t sign players 60-100% of the sale value. Clearly there are are other reasons why we can’t and don’t sign players at these prices, but it’s dishonest to use phasing of finance as the justification. 

What is incorrect and patronising?

As for up front costs - depends upon the demands of the selling team. If we are looking at players at less than £10m their clubs may well want the majority of that up front. The more expensive a player, the more likely their fee will be spread out. Bearing in mind the most the club has ever spent on a single player is the rumoured £7.5-8m for Naismith, it is highly likely that the deals we have been looking at in the past do look at more of the cost in advance.

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If you did scrap off 4 or 5 players to pay one player 3 times as much as anyone else, what effect would that have on the rest of the squad?

Not saying that everyone should be paid equally in this line of work, as there are a multitude of factors to consider... but other established 1st team players would I'm sure expect to at least be in the carpark of the same ballpark.  Max / Cantwell amongst others would likely get pretty disillusioned if Emi were on £75 grand and they were on £20-30.  Suddenly everyone needs a 20k pay bump.

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2 hours ago, chicken said:

What is incorrect and patronising?

As for up front costs - depends upon the demands of the selling team. If we are looking at players at less than £10m their clubs may well want the majority of that up front. The more expensive a player, the more likely their fee will be spread out. Bearing in mind the most the club has ever spent on a single player is the rumoured £7.5-8m for Naismith, it is highly likely that the deals we have been looking at in the past do look at more of the cost in advance.

As I said, using phasing of transfer fee payments ( and premier league income) as an excuse for not making big money signings. We could also phase our payments for a big money £15-20m signing - financing is also available for our purchases as well as money received. I fully understand and accept that we won’t be making £20m signings, but not due to phasing of income. 

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8 hours ago, Jezzard said:

As I said, using phasing of transfer fee payments ( and premier league income) as an excuse for not making big money signings. We could also phase our payments for a big money £15-20m signing - financing is also available for our purchases as well as money received. I fully understand and accept that we won’t be making £20m signings, but not due to phasing of income. 

That depends very much on the clubs we are buying from and whether we want to pay interest as well. It's not at all patronising, and the club has never said that we couldn't sign a £15-20m player due to phasing of income. They've just said we can't afford them at all.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/06/2021 at 13:54, spencer 1970 said:

Im starting to accept he's gone, especially as we'd *have never* been able to match his £75K pw week wages...

...and then I stumble upon this. 😞

Marco Stiepermann AM 25,000 2022
Timm Klose CB 25,000 2022
Josip Drmic CF 22,500 2022
Onel Hernández LW 22,000 2023
Moritz Leitner CM 20,000 2022
Tom Trybull DM 20,000 2022
Rocky Bushiri CB 15,000 2021
Jordan Hugill CF 13,250 2023
    162,750

 

Do you ever get the feeling "we're doing it wrong"? I'd have Emi over these 8, and that still leave us bumper wages left over for 2 decent players (AM/ST?)

Is a smaller squad on bigger wages backed up with blooding youth* when needed the better solution?

(*It worked with Omobamidele this season. That alone could save us £5/10m)

You could arguably add these 2 to the list.

Sam Byram     RB    20,000    2023
Christoph Zimmermann    CB    19,500    2023

 

Bit harsh to include Stiepermann and Hugill, as they were both part of a successful squad last season which has done the job and got us back up, can't write off Zimmermann when you see what a run of games did for Hanley, he's been stop start.

Just stick with players who are completely out of the picture when implying they are deadwood? 

I suspect we'll see a few leave this summer with us subbing the difference in wages at their new clubs, I can see us paying off Leitner and Drmic, who are the two who have completely burnt their bridges.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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Not shocked at all, always part of the plan 

Got a good deal for Emi, a player largely unproven outside of the Championship but will clearly go on and play at a much higher level 

i was expecting a Villa type team as it means that he has somewhere to go after and you can be sure there is a sell on clause, similar to Lewis, Godfrey and Maddison in that sense 

we could be in line for another £60m for those players in sell on fees alone 

Selling emi to say an arsenal or Spurs would’ve probably been his ceiling 

we are now in a position to reinvest that money back into the squad much like Gibson and Giannoulis in replacement of Lewis and Godfrey, arguably two better players (currently, as Lewis and Godfrey obv have potential) 

we will replace emi (as we did when Maddison left with emi) and we will also be able to strengthen in other areas 

I can understand why Norwich fans get frustrated as it continually looks as if we’re selling our best players however in all cases we have successfully replaced and reinvested money back into the club 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, chicken said:

That depends very much on the clubs we are buying from and whether we want to pay interest as well. It's not at all patronising, and the club has never said that we couldn't sign a £15-20m player due to phasing of income. They've just said we can't afford them at all.

On more than one occasion Webber has given this as one reason we can’t afford to spend ‘big’: “People think we get all the premier league money in one go...” Other chief execs have also stated this. In the unlikely event that we accept phased payments and no club from which we would potentially buy does, we could reschedule payments / bridge loans for 6 months until the next tranche of phased guaranteed income comes in. This would cost us a few £100k tops...we are not missing out on big £15m transfers by £100k or so more like several million. 

Edited by Jezzard

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11 hours ago, chicken said:

and the club has never said that we couldn't sign a £15-20m player due to phasing of income. They've just said we can't afford them at all.

Apart from we were trying to sign that French winger for £16-17mil at the end of the PL transfer window 2 years ago…. And that was when we were not in good shape financially.

I’m expecting us to very closely breach this threshold this time, we’ve got a lot more money to go around. Could see signing 3 players £10-15mil for sure and maybe more if the right opportunity comes our way.

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