Worthington should be given one more season to get it right - top 6 or bust

[Canary Poirot 1]

I accept that the evidence from the last 18 months is not good for Worthington. And the achievements of Wigan and West Ham are not helping his case. However - Sunderland''s are! We all knew when we got promoted if we survived we''d have had a good season. Mistakes were made, and the closeness to achieving survival makes the case against Worthington more severe, as if the mistakes hadn''t been made we would''ve survived.

However, low expecations last season meant whatever the outcome, Worthington was always safe. After all, he had given us 3.5 good seasons in the Championships - against the odds really.

In the first season he saved us from the drop. Transformed the team, and got the best out of a solid side and somehow got us into the playoff final - a fantastic adventure - and one of the best seasons for me ever. The next season we came close by we just didn''t have the quality in the end. Then we splashed the cash and stormed to the title in a division which quite frankly a dozen teams could''ve won at the start of the season.

So we come to this season. And yes it has been a BIG dissapointment. We were favourites. But Worthington screwed up in the summer - by signing players who have not delivered. He clearly had no money to spend (for whatever reason).

The thing is, on paper, we''ve still arguably got a better team (apart from RB) than the one we were promoted with (accepting that the one''s still here, Huckerby, Drury, Fleming, Green and McKenzie are still the same players despite their performances not being to the same level as before), but the squad as a whole are not performing.

For me, Worthington should be given one last season, to prove he can get the best out of a group of players like he''s proven in the past. But he must solve some long term problems for me, or he will never succeed.

1. He must sort out the right hand side (a RB and RM).
2. Sort out the Huckerby situation. Is he a liability - or can he still do it for us? Can we accommodate him in the team when he doesn''t defend and doesn''t produce?
3. He must get us back to being a solid team, hard to beat. That means two banks of 4 in front of Green.
4. If he adds quality to a solid team - then the play offs are the minimum in this division.

[breaker 0]

A well-considered post Monsieur Poirot with some valid points. However, my concern over giving NW another season (do you mean this season or next season?) is that the contracts situation will shortly become an issue with around 60% of the squad eligible to leave by the end of next season. I do not think there is a major rebuilding job to be done with the current squad, more a case of better coaching, motivation and management. This may or may not be the case but what is certain is that in a year''s time Norwich City could have lost their better players, including the few youth players who have shown potential. How many of the following will stay of the situation does not improve, Huckerby, Earnshaw. Green, Shackell, Doherty, Jarvis brothers, Henderson, Safri, McVeigh? Remove those players from our current squad and we look very, very weak.

[ncfc_2006 0]

Yes, so true.

[nolegs 0]

A well reasoned,well set out post,I just feel Worthington has run his course,and is bereft of any ideas how to put it right,he has had two transfer windows to fill the glaring hole ,that is our complete right hand side,and has singulaly failed to do so,without turning this into some Worthy in/out slagging thread (I''m sure there are others who will do so) I just feel he has reached the end of his natural tenure,the season is dead now, give a chance for someone else with new ideas to bed in ready for next season.

[Saint Canary 0]

I don''t really want to argue whether he should go or stay if he stays and does a better job then I don''t really care.

What will be interesting is that next season will be our last for parachute payments.  If we have a poor start to next season I for one will be watching closely to see whether the board really does have "infinite patience" and will back "Their Man".   I would severely doubt it as up to now we have not lost out too much financially due to high gates and the Sky money.  The consequences of failing to get promotion means we miss out on roughly £6m and would mean a vast clear out of players, mainly the better ones on high wages and nobody wants to see that happen.

 

[0peteddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

I am surprised you consider such woolly thinking to be a well considered post, its yet another example of a poster who can''t see beyond his nose.  The current team have shown no willingness to play for Worthington and how do you expect them to respond to him next season, there is just no evidence for thinking Worthington can turn it around.

The players you say might leave with the exception of Earnshaw, Green and Safri might just attract significant bids, but from whom to attract them, Premiership I think not.  Ryan Jarvis and McVeigh will leave at the end of this season.  Even with those remaining in the squad we look weak, may I remind you lost 15, one of worst scoring/defensive records in Division, are these the records of a strong squad?

[cool1 0]

I think worthington should have one more season............spring!!!

[beelsie 0]

While I agree with many of your points, Breaker, especially the coaching, I ask my self this question, where we have so many respected and proven professional footballers at the club, "How come the fielded team, and previous teams over the last three seasons have forgotten the basics of defending and the simple discipline of keeping their shape?" After all they are not novices to the game. Worthy tells them to get close to, and at the opposing attack ,do''nt give them so much room to play,  "What are our boys frightened of, (apart from Safri)?  Winning the game!!!

[NottsCanary 0]

[quote user="cool1"]I think worthington should have one more season............spring!!![/quote]

His last season should have been Winter...

[First Wizard 0]

I see you ''glossed over'' our relegation from the premiership, with not one single away win to our name CP, I wonder why?.

[huck tastic<IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Bryan Hamilton could turn this around...<BR><FONT> 0]

No. He''s had enough time and its a shambles.

New manager now, a dozen games to assess the squad and prepare for next season.

[0ridgemanddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

He should have gone over a year ago and I think we could have stayed in the Prem.

 Remember the play offs 1 - 0 up subs McVeigh with Sutch - still making the same mistakes several seasons on.

We have now been asked for infinite patience whilst the new players blend, well we are now in February and the summer signings haven''t blended yet by the time the two loan signings blend they will be back at their relative clubs and the season over.

[Syteanric 1]

1 more season could see us at Wycombe and Heartlepool! no chance! worthy out now!

jas :)

[lucky green trainers 0]

no time - i more season of parachute money.  also sunderland took another season to get back up, but they played well the season they came down.  remember the performance they gave at carra rd 2 years ago?  we were fortunate to win 1-0. meanwhile our performaces are of crisis proportions - its time worthy moved on in my opinion.

[LinkNR9 0]

IMHO, Poirot (and as the WOTB site has also opined to you), you''re way off beam. Worthington''s had more than enough time and is dragging this club down. Worthy Out!

[USAcanary 0]

[quote user="Canary Poirot"]

I accept that the evidence from the last 18 months is not good for Worthington. And the achievements of Wigan and West Ham are not helping his case. However - Sunderland''s are! We all knew when we got promoted if we survived we''d have had a good season. Mistakes were made, and the closeness to achieving survival makes the case against Worthington more severe, as if the mistakes hadn''t been made we would''ve survived.

However, low expecations last season meant whatever the outcome, Worthington was always safe. After all, he had given us 3.5 good seasons in the Championships - against the odds really.

In the first season he saved us from the drop. Transformed the team, and got the best out of a solid side and somehow got us into the playoff final - a fantastic adventure - and one of the best seasons for me ever. The next season we came close by we just didn''t have the quality in the end. Then we splashed the cash and stormed to the title in a division which quite frankly a dozen teams could''ve won at the start of the season.

So we come to this season. And yes it has been a BIG dissapointment. We were favourites. But Worthington screwed up in the summer - by signing players who have not delivered. He clearly had no money to spend (for whatever reason).

The thing is, on paper, we''ve still arguably got a better team (apart from RB) than the one we were promoted with (accepting that the one''s still here, Huckerby, Drury, Fleming, Green and McKenzie are still the same players despite their performances not being to the same level as before), but the squad as a whole are not performing.

For me, Worthington should be given one last season, to prove he can get the best out of a group of players like he''s proven in the past. But he must solve some long term problems for me, or he will never succeed.

1. He must sort out the right hand side (a RB and RM).
2. Sort out the Huckerby situation. Is he a liability - or can he still do it for us? Can we accommodate him in the team when he doesn''t defend and doesn''t produce?
3. He must get us back to being a solid team, hard to beat. That means two banks of 4 in front of Green.
4. If he adds quality to a solid team - then the play offs are the minimum in this division.

[/quote]

I just wanted to say this is a very well written argument.

Maybe the likes of squitty/dicky could learn from this.

I do think the points you raise (which are mostly spot on BTW) also point to the reasons why the majority of people feel Worthy should go.

The problems have been around for a while but Worthy has not sorted them out.

His tactics leave most people scratching their heads (including his biggest supporters such as Neil Adams)

To me his game plan is "throw stuff out there and see what works"

His game plan vs Reading was simply terrible, we deserved to get buried.

Our brand of hoofball is just not fun to watch.

I am sure Worthy would have a lot more support if we played better football and lost.

We are just going backwards. Worthy and the club have just gone stale.

IMHO we need a change.

Worthy OUT.

 

 

 

[Tumbleweed 106]

The original post is not well reasoned but picks out facts and generalisations to support the conclusion, fails to explain why despite stating that we have a better squad, we are a team with no confidence, fluidity, organsiation, tactics, commitment, leadership or positional awareness and who can lose to anyone at any time. Hmmmm, so many good reasons to let Worthy wreak even further havoc while supporters despair. There is not ONE shred of evidence to support giving this man more time, just the spineless hope that as Mr Micawber said "something will turn up".

[Ken Aries 0]

I''m going to cut the crap here, with a well reasoned response and say.....WORTHY OUT NOW!!

[Canary Poirot 1]

Tumbleweed

To come out and say there is not one single shred of evidence to support Worthington''s situation is lazy and slovenly of you, and shows you have failed to think your post through, not to mention highlighting your blazing lack of reasoning ability, after thinking you could belittle mine with a snide comment which has become sadly too common on this website. My post wasn''t perfect, but to say there is NO evidence that Worthington can stay is small minded, and erodes authority from your other posts.

The evidence is clear - what happened in the 3.5 years we actually did well under Worthington?. You will say - "the past means nothing". Well, actually, what people in the past achieved does mean something. Usually it is an indication of their ability. It''s not a perfect guide however. But the evidence is that Worthington turned a poor team around, and got us promoted. People will say 1) he spent loads of money that other managers couldn''t. He hasn''t spent excessively - the ITV digital money which got us from a poor relegation/mid table team and got into the play offs. Then when the well was dry he only brought in Heckingbottom on a free (who I accept was garbage), we were solid, but lacked the quality and came 8th. A good effort. Then the board gambled and spent beyond our means and we got promoted. Which brings me onto point 2) people will say we only got promoted because of Huckerby. This is of course a gross insult to everyone else in the team. It is true that Huckerby gave us the quality to get over the line (so in a sense I acknowledge that Huckerby was the catalyst to propel us up a level), but the rest of the team which was built was solid enough to make us a top 6 team - a team Worthy fashioned, trained and built.   

Of course, the past is not necessary a guide to how well you will perform in the future. Conditions at the time play a key role. In the Premiership we were totally out of our depth. Talent wise we weren''t good enough, all of us knew that - as I said in the original post - the only reason we all moan about it now is because we came so close to surviving. We only came very close to surviving because there were 3 other teams just as bad. But Worthington did make errors. Helveg and Safri SHOULD have been in the team earlier. But hindsight is a wonderful thing. Is that a sackable offence? To many of you it is - and that is your opinion and I accept that. To me it isn''t, but only because I still have some belief that Worthington can turn it around, although it is diminishing.

I however am fair enough to state that this season has been poor. The points you make Tumbleweed are polarised and extreme, although there is some truth in what you say, only you are so blinded that you cannot see the other side of the argument (and you accuse me of lacking reasoning ability!) The conclusion however is not strictly a question of reasoning - it''s a question of belief. At times we have looked disorganised, tactics at times have looked poor. There does appear to be an inability to learn from mistakes. These errors are all a consequence of the disasterous summer when Worthington bought some shocking players. A sackable offence? To many of you it is. To me, not yet. Can Worthington turn the sinking ship around? You either believe he can based on his past record, or you''ve given up hope of it, as this season has been appalling. The confidence of the players is shot, which means players panic in possession in fear of making errors and are forced into playign the ball early - the long ball. I reckon we will limp to the end of this season for that matter alone. The team is also unbalanced - an over reliance on Huckerby, Safri and McVeigh to produce chances and no right winger. Things must improve or Worthington must go.

The only difference between us Tumbleweed is that I''m willing to give the guy a chance to do it with a full strength squad - you''re not. Still, if we lose our next 4 games and are still playing abysmally - I''d sack him at the end of the season!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="Canary Poirot"]

Still, if we lose our next 4 games and are still playing abysmally - I''d sack him at the end of the season!

[/quote]

if we lose our next 4 i will put money on relegation...  that would be 9 defeats, 1 draw in 10 games.  not gonna happen i hope

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="Canary Poirot"]

Tumbleweed

To come out and say there is not one single shred of evidence to support Worthington''s situation is lazy and slovenly of you, and shows you have failed to think your post through, not to mention highlighting your blazing lack of reasoning ability, after thinking you could belittle mine with a snide comment which has become sadly too common on this website. My post wasn''t perfect, but to say there is NO evidence that Worthington can stay is small minded, and erodes authority from your other posts.

The evidence is clear - what happened in the 3.5 years we actually did well under Worthington?. You will say - "the past means nothing". Well, actually, what people in the past achieved does mean something. Usually it is an indication of their ability. It''s not a perfect guide however. But the evidence is that Worthington turned a poor team around, and got us promoted. People will say 1) he spent loads of money that other managers couldn''t. He hasn''t spent excessively - the ITV digital money which got us from a poor relegation/mid table team and got into the play offs. Then when the well was dry he only brought in Heckingbottom on a free (who I accept was garbage), we were solid, but lacked the quality and came 8th. A good effort. Then the board gambled and spent beyond our means and we got promoted. Which brings me onto point 2) people will say we only got promoted because of Huckerby. This is of course a gross insult to everyone else in the team. It is true that Huckerby gave us the quality to get over the line (so in a sense I acknowledge that Huckerby was the catalyst to propel us up a level), but the rest of the team which was built was solid enough to make us a top 6 team - a team Worthy fashioned, trained and built.   

Of course, the past is not necessary a guide to how well you will perform in the future. Conditions at the time play a key role. In the Premiership we were totally out of our depth. Talent wise we weren''t good enough, all of us knew that - as I said in the original post - the only reason we all moan about it now is because we came so close to surviving. We only came very close to surviving because there were 3 other teams just as bad. But Worthington did make errors. Helveg and Safri SHOULD have been in the team earlier. But hindsight is a wonderful thing. Is that a sackable offence? To many of you it is - and that is your opinion and I accept that. To me it isn''t, but only because I still have some belief that Worthington can turn it around, although it is diminishing.

I however am fair enough to state that this season has been poor. The points you make Tumbleweed are polarised and extreme, although there is some truth in what you say, only you are so blinded that you cannot see the other side of the argument (and you accuse me of lacking reasoning ability!) The conclusion however is not strictly a question of reasoning - it''s a question of belief. At times we have looked disorganised, tactics at times have looked poor. There does appear to be an inability to learn from mistakes. These errors are all a consequence of the disasterous summer when Worthington bought some shocking players. A sackable offence? To many of you it is. To me, not yet. Can Worthington turn the sinking ship around? You either believe he can based on his past record, or you''ve given up hope of it, as this season has been appalling. The confidence of the players is shot, which means players panic in possession in fear of making errors and are forced into playign the ball early - the long ball. I reckon we will limp to the end of this season for that matter alone. The team is also unbalanced - an over reliance on Huckerby, Safri and McVeigh to produce chances and no right winger. Things must improve or Worthington must go.

The only difference between us Tumbleweed is that I''m willing to give the guy a chance to do it with a full strength squad - you''re not. Still, if we lose our next 4 games and are still playing abysmally - I''d sack him at the end of the season!

[/quote]sorry cp, all you''ve done is confirm that worthy has proven success at getting average players to play above themselves and he did it well to gain promotion etc.  however, since working with quality players the side has underformed and especially this season.  imo, we need a manager with proven experience of getting the best out of quality, decent players.  also, with one year of parachute money left we need to go up next season, and so by bringing in a new manager now, they have a chance to work with the players, see who they want to keep and let go of in the summer - and try to mould some team spirit in a clearly demoralised squad.  we need come out the blocks early next season and so leaving it longer to move worthy on will be too late.  the first thing a new manager in the summer will say, is give me a season to rebuild - and we just don''t have the fiunancial clout to be able to afford such a strategy.  the end of the season debate smacks of too little too late.

[Tumbleweed 106]

CP

Yes, my response was lazy. That was wrong. However my frustration runs very deep at the moment. I drive 160 miles for a home game, spend £60 on petrol, get home at 1.00am if its an evening match and even on a Saturday I am just experiencing too many miserable Saturday evening drives in the dark down the M11.

I have given NW a chance. Yet every time we seem to turn a corner- a win against Plymouth, at win at Portaloo, a new signing, a return from injury, something pops up and we go backwards yet again.

I look for positives, I really do. Earnshaw signing and Johanson on loan. Great stuff. But will we use their strengths? I fear not. Ashton looked forlorn this season, Hux seems to have lost interest, Green makes mistakes, Hughes is, well, Hughes. McVeigh pops up then disppears, Charlton comes in at central midfield.

I don''t know what''s going on anymore. My feeling is that the whole squad needs a jolly good kick up the rear. A reinvigoration, new energy, a bit of the cold bath and cross country run treatment. Let them bond, find a leader, find passion in their bellies. Let them show the commitment that I do in taking large chunks out of my time to roar my support.

I believed in Nigel once. No more.