Tactical conundrum

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

The problem we have is that our style and tactics make us look like Brazil in the championship but lightweight and vulnerable in the Premiership. 
 

Last time we were out muscled by the lower half teams and out skilled by the top teams. How does on anticipate it better this season?

To survive with skill requires hefty spend but to go with brute force wrecks the vision. It won’t be easy but fascinating to watch how the club will do things differently this time round.

What would you do? 

[Yellow and Green 334]

46 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Last time we were out muscled by the lower half teams and out skilled by the top teams. How does on anticipate it better this season?

That's pretty much how the PL is made up. We actually did OK vs the top teams last season (beating Everton, Man City, Leicester, Spurs in the cup) but effectively handing those around us 6 points each. 

We won't change our philosophy. The thinking is that we improve the squad every transfer window so that we're better prepared to get promoted/survive in the PL.

IMO it hinges on the summer recruitment. We need to get to a level where we can unlock the big, physical, defensive teams on a consistent basis and (basically) not concede any soft goals from set pieces.

To be fair to them, it's what Leeds have managed and they've ended up mid-table.

[sgncfc 1,227]

I don't think we were outskilled by the top teams. We competed with pretty much all of them, taking points from Man City, Leicester, Spurs and Arsenal and running Liverpool and Chelsea at home very close. The current team would do as well I think.

Your point on physicality is valid though. As you go down the league that increases - Southampton, Palace, Everton, Wolves, West Ham, Villa, Leeds etc make up for that skill gap with pace and power; Burnley and the strugglers have more of that than skill.

Our challenge next season is to keep the skill level we have but introduce more power and athleticism into the way we play - to be fair I think the coaching team knew that last time as well, we just didn't have the players. Having added Gibson and Giannoulis we've covered the defence, but the rest of the squad needs additions, as we know.

Watching Fulham against Burnley the other night, how could we handle Vydra and Wood and the way they cut out midfield to rain shots on goal? We have to have wide players with the physical ability to close down the pass, and CDM's with the spatial awareness and power to intercept and play through - Ndidi, Kante, Matic players like that who are everywhere, as Skipp was for us last season.

Then we just need Emi to play Pukki in!

[BroadstairsR 2,163]

"I don't think we were outskilled by the top teams. We competed with pretty much all of them, taking points from Man City, Leicester, Spurs and Arsenal and running Liverpool and Chelsea at home very close. The current team would do as well I think."

I agree and would wish it pointed out to the critics, pundits and cynics who have semed intent upon reporting our last PL season as 'lemming like.'

We were getting our act together following a crippling and selective injury crisis. The pandemic break halted our momentum and confidence deteriorated by the week. 

We are better equipped because these factors won'taccure again, because Farke learns and because we have a more balanced squad.

Not easy, but easier than last time.

Edited May 12, 2021 by BroadstairsR

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

In addition to the salient points raised above, I feel that Farke has actively tried to make us more secure at the back than we were two years ago. We conceded loads of goals when we won the title in 18/19, and it was no surprise that we went on to ship two goals a game in the PL.

This time around we've been a lot more difficult to break down, and I'm confident that the signings we'll be able to make over the summer will add defensive strength to the squad. That doesn't just mean trying to find one Kanté clone who can do the jobs of Tettey and Skipp rolled into one; it means defending from the front and right across the pitch.

[Indy 3,297]

4 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

In addition to the salient points raised above, I feel that Farke has actively tried to make us more secure at the back than we were two years ago. We conceded loads of goals when we won the title in 18/19, and it was no surprise that we went on to ship two goals a game in the PL.

This time around we've been a lot more difficult to break down, and I'm confident that the signings we'll be able to make over the summer will add defensive strength to the squad. That doesn't just mean trying to find one Kanté clone who can do the jobs of Tettey and Skipp rolled into one; it means defending from the front and right across the pitch.

This is an observation, but not strictly true, the last time up the same shortfall was identified and bought in Amadou, who never really fulfilled that requirement.

[AJ 1,218]

We lost a lot of those games by conceding an odd goal, or conceding early - I have faith that we have a better spine in the squad but a lot will hinge on who we bring into that DM position with the gaping hole left by Skipp. If we can be tighter at the back I think we'll be okay

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

7 hours ago, Indy said:

This is an observation, but not strictly true, the last time up the same shortfall was identified and bought in Amadou, who never really fulfilled that requirement.

Poor old Amadou kept having to play CB because of our ridiculous injury crisis, and never really got a run of games in his preferred position. But anyway, my point is that we'll make signings across the team that will make the physical, defensive and out-of-possession side of the game a much more important consideration.

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

7 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

In addition to the salient points raised above, I feel that Farke has actively tried to make us more secure at the back than we were two years ago. We conceded loads of goals when we won the title in 18/19, and it was no surprise that we went on to ship two goals a game in the PL.

This time around we've been a lot more difficult to break down, and I'm confident that the signings we'll be able to make over the summer will add defensive strength to the squad. That doesn't just mean trying to find one Kanté clone who can do the jobs of Tettey and Skipp rolled into one; it means defending from the front and right across the pitch.

I think you are right. You could see it in last season's signings, upping the physicality and pace throughout the squad. Even the Vrancic departure this summer gives me that impression, as he's easily got a couple more years at the level he's been operating at.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

8 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

I think you are right. You could see it in last season's signings, upping the physicality and pace throughout the squad. Even the Vrancic departure this summer gives me that impression, as he's easily got a couple more years at the level he's been operating at.

Wouldn't be surprised if Stiepi is on his way too. With Dowell starting to show form, Stiepi just looks like a beta model of what a Farke player should be. With Tettey, Vrancic, Skipp and possibly Stiepi on their way, we really need some quality in the middle of the park; Rupp, Sorensen and McLean isn't nearly enough ballast to survive in a 4-2-3-1. The 'engine room' is absolutely the most important position to strengthen this summer.

[AJ 1,218]

44 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Wouldn't be surprised if Stiepi is on his way too. With Dowell starting to show form, Stiepi just looks like a beta model of what a Farke player should be. With Tettey, Vrancic, Skipp and possibly Stiepi on their way, we really need some quality in the middle of the park; Rupp, Sorensen and McLean isn't nearly enough ballast to survive in a 4-2-3-1. The 'engine room' is absolutely the most important position to strengthen this summer.

I'm not so sure on Stiepi, I think he'll be saved but the fact Farke seems to really rate him, still praising him in press conferences a few weeks back. I think he'll be here but think we'll still be looking to strengthen in that no10 role. 

Skipp is the bigger issue, I've genuinely no idea how we're going to plug the massive hole he's left in the squad. With Sorensen getting little game time there and McLean potentially missing pre season I think Webber is going to have you pull off another blinder that's for sure.

Vrancic can still still perform well but he fluffed too many chances this year to earn another year. Feel like he should have scored at least 3/4 more from that run of games he had at no10, he failed to make that position his own. Dowell eventually got going and did, so no surprise to see Vrancic left to expire. 

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

If the club haven't been operating under the thought that we don't get Skipp back next season then we deserve to go down. I'm 100% sure they have.

[Yellow and Green 334]

8 hours ago, AJ said:

I'm not so sure on Stiepi, I think he'll be saved but the fact Farke seems to really rate him, still praising him in press conferences a few weeks back. I think he'll be here but think we'll still be looking to strengthen in that no10 role. 

Skipp is the bigger issue, I've genuinely no idea how we're going to plug the massive hole he's left in the squad. With Sorensen getting little game time there and McLean potentially missing pre season I think Webber is going to have you pull off another blinder that's for sure.

Vrancic can still still perform well but he fluffed too many chances this year to earn another year. Feel like he should have scored at least 3/4 more from that run of games he had at no10, he failed to make that position his own. Dowell eventually got going and did, so no surprise to see Vrancic left to expire. 

Re: Stiepermann: I can see them telling him that he'll play a similar role to what Tettey did last year - he probably won't get much game time but he will be a useful player off the bench to add physicality in certain situations. He's also a good character to have around the place and I'm sure he's not on huge wages. You'd assume they'd be equally understanding if he opts for more game time and moves on. His contract is up next year so you'd imagine that we'd look to part ways and upgrade at that point. 

Re Skipp: I agree that it's a pivotal signing for us but I would add that, with Vrancic and Tettey leaving, they have freed up spaces in the squad, identified the midfield as an area to improve and will be revamping it this summer. 

Re Vrancic: I was thinking that both MV and AT both had a lot to offer from the bench next year, however, as stated in my previous point, I can understand why they have let them go. We need to upgrade that midfield and I hope that, if we can't resign Skipp, the DM is a permanent so that we have Tettey's long term successor in place.

[smooth 114]

We certainly need 2 DM, so it is a big concern. If we bought one and he got injured we would be in an awkward position.

It was interesting looking at the stats of champions and seeing how many defence splitting Vrancic put through. The number 10 position needs another addition, Dowell needs a challenger. Marco is probably not that answer but a squad player.

Can't wait to see our moves in the window. 

Second striker, new centre half, 2 defensive midfielders and a number 10 is the bare minimum of what is needed and they have to be as close to starter level as we can get.

[Gordon Bennett 783]

What would I do? Pretty simple, trust the management team who will have learned many lessons from last season. 

[Yobocop 1,098]

I think we have already seen the direction the club are going in with how much more defensively resolute we have been this season 

The ‘emergence’ of Hanley this season (i always knew he had it, others didn’t) coupled with the signings of ready made Premier League players Ben Gibson and Giannoulis not to mention Holland’s number 1 goalkeeper puts us in an excellent position

Yes Oliver Skipp will need re-signing or replacing  but as others have alluded to I am confident we now have a ‘war chest’ to deliver on this front 

l do expect Aarons to go but the money we raise from his sale will be ploughed straight back into the first team 

we have a great opportunity to stay up next season as we will be more competitive against those lower league teams given our new defensive steel but we do need to add to the ranks before august 

[AJ 1,218]

2 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

Re: Stiepermann: I can see them telling him that he'll play a similar role to what Tettey did last year - he probably won't get much game time but he will be a useful player off the bench to add physicality in certain situations. He's also a good character to have around the place and I'm sure he's not on huge wages. You'd assume they'd be equally understanding if he opts for more game time and moves on. His contract is up next year so you'd imagine that we'd look to part ways and upgrade at that point. 

Re Skipp: I agree that it's a pivotal signing for us but I would add that, with Vrancic and Tettey leaving, they have freed up spaces in the squad, identified the midfield as an area to improve and will be revamping it this summer. 

Re Vrancic: I was thinking that both MV and AT both had a lot to offer from the bench next year, however, as stated in my previous point, I can understand why they have let them go. We need to upgrade that midfield and I hope that, if we can't resign Skipp, the DM is a permanent so that we have Tettey's long term successor in place.

Yes that's a fair point, I guess the question is when did this illness actually happen, because he never seemed right in our Prem season being half a yard off the pace and a shadow of himself the season before, I think if he can get anywhere near the level he was providing in our previous championship triumph then he's a great asset to have in the squad, even to bring off the bench or use tactically different when we need a bit of height. I still think he has a part to play so expect him to stay, but still think they'll be looking to add to Dowell and Stiepi, given Dowell can also be very effective from wide should Todd or Emi have an enforced break.

I like the second point which makes me appreciate the methods behind Webber. After our rightly embarrassing attempt at a Prem season the immediate issues were LB, CB, DM and a CF to replace Jamal, Godfrey, our lack of defensive ability in midfield, and Drmic. Webber duly ticked all the boxes. With Xavi not quite up there, he then goes and sources a upgraded LB in January on another brilliant loan-to-buy deal. The squad is already in a good place, I'd say, minus the midfield loss of Skipp so any additions we do bring in will literally improve the squad rather than plug gaps like the last window, and that lack of depth has hurt us a lot over the past two seasons so can only be a good thing.

I'd like to see us spend some serious money on a decent midfielder if Skipp isn't an option, clearly it's a place we need some talismanic to build the spine of our squad. We have Krul/Hanley/Buendia and Pukki, we're just missing that big player in the middle. I'd love it to be Skipp, but not sure how likely that is.

15 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

I think we have already seen the direction the club are going in with how much more defensively resolute we have been this season 

The ‘emergence’ of Hanley this season (i always knew he had it, others didn’t) coupled with the signings of ready made Premier League players Ben Gibson and Giannoulis not to mention Holland’s number 1 goalkeeper puts us in an excellent position

Yes Oliver Skipp will need re-signing or replacing  but as others have alluded to I am confident we now have a ‘war chest’ to deliver on this front 

l do expect Aarons to go but the money we raise from his sale will be ploughed straight back into the first team 

we have a great opportunity to stay up next season as we will be more competitive against those lower league teams given our new defensive steel but we do need to add to the ranks before august 

Yobocop - I'm not so sure Aarons will go this summer, can you name a top side that is in need of a RB? 

Man City - Cancelo (best in the league)
Man Utd - Wan-Bissaka (who has improved a lot this season I'd say)
Liverpool - TAA (won't be going anywhere)
Leicester - Justin James (hot future prospect)
Arsenal - Bellerin (stalwart)
Chelsea - Reece James (hot future prospect)
Spurs - Kyle Walker-Peters/Doherty (who they spent some money on)
West Ham - Spent money to get Coufal who has been great

The only club I can think of that might be a contender is Everton as they'll be looking to replace Coleman long term as he enters the latter stages of his career, if they have the funds to get him

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by AJ

[Six Pack 93]

13 hours ago, AJ said:

I'm not so sure on Stiepi, I think he'll be saved but the fact Farke seems to really rate him, still praising him in press conferences a few weeks back. I think he'll be here but think we'll still be looking to strengthen in that no10 role. 

Skipp is the bigger issue, I've genuinely no idea how we're going to plug the massive hole he's left in the squad. With Sorensen getting little game time there and McLean potentially missing pre season I think Webber is going to have you pull off another blinder that's for sure.

Vrancic can still still perform well but he fluffed too many chances this year to earn another year. Feel like he should have scored at least 3/4 more from that run of games he had at no10, he failed to make that position his own. Dowell eventually got going and did, so no surprise to see Vrancic left to expire. 

"He could have made that position his own" - you kidding ? Vrancic is not even a genuine No 10 ! His best position is  CM, yes, he filled in at 10 due to the injuries but he was playing out of position and was trying to force it. But he still played well enough in my mind to remain in the team. I think Webber/Farke have made a major blunder not keeping him as a impact sub at least - when you are chasing games and  bring on a sub - an ordinary player could possibly get you a goal - but with Vrancic  - he would probably get us a goal - that's the confidence he gives me - monumental balls-up which will cost our club dearly !

[AJ 1,218]

2 hours ago, Six Pack said:

"He could have made that position his own" - you kidding ? Vrancic is not even a genuine No 10 ! His best position is  CM, yes, he filled in at 10 due to the injuries but he was playing out of position and was trying to force it. But he still played well enough in my mind to remain in the team. I think Webber/Farke have made a major blunder not keeping him as a impact sub at least - when you are chasing games and  bring on a sub - an ordinary player could possibly get you a goal - but with Vrancic  - he would probably get us a goal - that's the confidence he gives me - monumental balls-up which will cost our club dearly !

We were playing mainly with 2 DMs effectively, as McLean was sitting fairly deep alongside Skipp. This was probably too deep for where Vrancic is best, so that no10 spot was the only way he was getting back into the starting XI. I agree given the impact he can have on games I am surprised we have let him go, he's one of the few players who can just pick a pass out of nowhere, but that must speak volumes for the players we must be on the verge (or are hopeful!) of bringing in if we're able to let players like Vrancic and Tettey go, one would hope!

[ged in the onion bag 855]

Central midfield was our Achilles last time.      We were chronically short in all aspects of that position last time and at the moment we still are.   McLean and Rupp don’t have the physical attributes required to dominate that area or the exceptional skill to make a difference with the ball and Sorensen is untried / completely inexperienced.     Fans suggest we need a replacement for Skipp which of course we do but we also need TWO more.    Let’s argue we sign Skipp or another strong player instead.... what if that player gets injured?     That would leave us with McLean and Rupp or Sorensen.   Admittedly these three are an improvement on the back-up options we had last time but is that really enough for us to compete? 

If we only signed 3 central midfielders and kept the rest we’d have a chance to do really wel next season.