O/T Richard Keogh wins dismissal case against Derby

[Icecream Snow 761]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/11/richard-keogh-awarded-more-than-2m-in-breach-of-contract-case-against-derby?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1620738609

pretty sordid affair

Keogh had sustained serious knee ligament injuries when he was in the car that his then teammate Tom Lawrence crashed into a lamppost after a night out in September of that year. He was dismissed by Derby for gross misconduct. His contract with them, worth a basic £24,000 a week plus bonuses, was due to run until June 2021.

The car crash happened after a team-bonding day. Lawrence was over the drink-drive limit and so was Mason Bennett, now of Millwall, who had driven off ahead. When Bennett stopped his car at a give-way line, Lawrence went into the back of him before careering into the lamppost. They fled the scene, leaving Keogh unconscious.

Lawrence and Bennett admitted drink-driving and failing to stop at the scene of an accident when they appeared at Derby magistrates court. They avoided jail sentences but each was ordered to carry out 180 hours of unpaid community service and banned from driving for two years. Despite their criminal convictions, Derby chose not to sack them, although they did fine them. Both were unhurt in the incident.

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,698]

With friends like these.. Not quite the best way to end your team bonding exersise

[Badger 2,405]

Keogh played for over 7 years at Derby - sacked when injured at 32 - tells you what yo uned to know about loyalty in football! Can you blame players for chasing money whilst they can?

[WD40 720]

Not a fan of Keogh but absolutely scandalous treatment and the right outcome here. When Lawrence didn’t get the same punishment as Keogh they wrote their own obituary. 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

I recall at the time a few posters saying it stank to high heaven. 32 year old with no sell on value - booted out . Lawrence and Bennett given slaps on the wrist . 
Did the PFA bring this action? 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,808]

Not a great couple of days for Derby in the courts...

[cambridgeshire canary 6,698]

8 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

I recall at the time a few posters saying it stank to high heaven. 32 year old with no sell on value - booted out . Lawrence and Bennett given slaps on the wrist . 
Did the PFA bring this action? 

Whole thing stinks of corruption and an easy scapegoat to be fair

Edited May 11, 2021 by cambridgeshire canary

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

52 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/11/richard-keogh-awarded-more-than-2m-in-breach-of-contract-case-against-derby?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1620738609

pretty sordid affair

Keogh had sustained serious knee ligament injuries when he was in the car that his then teammate Tom Lawrence crashed into a lamppost after a night out in September of that year. He was dismissed by Derby for gross misconduct. His contract with them, worth a basic £24,000 a week plus bonuses, was due to run until June 2021.

The car crash happened after a team-bonding day. Lawrence was over the drink-drive limit and so was Mason Bennett, now of Millwall, who had driven off ahead. When Bennett stopped his car at a give-way line, Lawrence went into the back of him before careering into the lamppost. They fled the scene, leaving Keogh unconscious.

Lawrence and Bennett admitted drink-driving and failing to stop at the scene of an accident when they appeared at Derby magistrates court. They avoided jail sentences but each was ordered to carry out 180 hours of unpaid community service and banned from driving for two years. Despite their criminal convictions, Derby chose not to sack them, although they did fine them. Both were unhurt in the incident.

 

This at just a bit of a tangent, but when the ESL plan got roundly rubbished there was some puzzlement in some quarters (certainly on one Guardian podcast I listened to) as to how these genius businessmen (and I think they were all men) failed to realise the likely reception.

The answer is mainly, I think, that they get insulated from the real world, and surrounded by yesmen. And I suspect there was an element of that with Derby in this case. Anyone with half a brain could have told the club's hierarchy that they would get sued (and lose what little good name they have left) if they sacked Keogh and kept the others on.

[kirku 1,332]

Disgusting behaviour from all concerned. That Keogh seems to be the less guilty of the stakeholders speaks volumes. Derby really are a grubby little club. Place is a ****hole as well.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The EFL have delayed making a decision about their guilt concerning player registration. Are they about to bottle it? League 1/2 clubs would have the book thrown at them.

Deduct 3 points now and relegate them as the bottom club and 9 points next season.

Sorry for genuine Rams but until clubs are punished for cheating, they will carry on doing it.

[AJ 1,218]

Disgraceful treatment of an employee. Will be interesting to see what happens about this potential points deduction but no doubt they will get away with it or it won't take affect until next season

[sgncfc 1,227]

I might be wrong here, but I seem to recall that they justified his treatment because he was club captain and they were entitled to expect a higher standard of behaviour. In addition, his actions in knowingly putting himself in harms way deprived his employer of his services for up to 12 months - that's not the case for the other two who were uninjured. Of course, any junior HR person would have advised them not to do it, so they must have done so with full knowledge of the likely outcome.

What is interesting is the level of damages at £2.3m. His contract had 21 months to run at £24,000 a week and average bonuses of an additional 15%. So his gross earnings for that 21 months would have been about that £2.3m i.e. Derby could have saved all the legal fees by just letting his contract run down, though it's possible they have insurance which will pay.

As Purple says, this has all the hallmarks of a rich, irrational businessman throwing his toys out of his pram and losing reason when something happens which annoys them. I have been that HR/Ops person when the CEO just digs his heels in and it ends up costing the company an absolute fortune. Pragmatism is not a word usually associated with billionaires......

[sgncfc 1,227]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

The EFL have delayed making a decision about their guilt concerning player registration. Are they about to bottle it? League 1/2 clubs would have the book thrown at them.

Deduct 3 points now and relegate them as the bottom club and 9 points next season.

Sorry for genuine Rams but until clubs are punished for cheating, they will carry on doing it.

Again, it's been lost in the reporting, but Derby supposedly asked the EFL for approval before amortising player values within that accounting year. They probably won't get a points deduction as a result, and probably not even a very big fine. The EFL is absolutely useless at governance.

I'm no Derby fan, but I think it's a bit harsh to call it cheating when that's the kind of thing accountants are employed to do.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

They've just been debating this on Talksport and I thought Simon Jordan raised several good points.

Firstly, Keogh injured himself as a result of getting himself involved in a totally non-sporting, deliberately negligent and criminal incident. 

Second, Keogh, as club captain, and as 7-10 years' the senior person in the situation, surely is supposed to be the one who leads by example and sets the standard to the rest of the team? He clearly failed in his duties. They're all to blame of course, but Keogh IMO more so. 

So yes the treatment was different between Keogh and the other two, but Lawrence and Bennett were able to continue playing, their actions did not lead to a long-term injury and a great financial loss to the club. 

Derby also initially offered Keogh a reduced wage (although sounds like it was a measly offer), before sacking him when he refused to take it. 

All in all maybe you can argue the dismissal was unfair (I don't really think it was super unfair), but surely Keogh cannot be entitled to a full pay-out for 2 years of missed wages, during which time he's also been collecting a wage for MK Dons / Huddersfield. 

He's basically come out of this better than he would have if it had never happened!

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

Where is our expert on  Brexit, masks and paying up contracts when we need him. Probably studying Formations and stats I reckon.👍😉😇

[horsefly 4,296]

This article probably gives more insight into the reasons for recent egregious decision making at Derby. Yet another example of how spending beyond one's means in the hope of securing promotion, or retaining PL status frerquently results in  utter chaos and disaster threatening the very future of a club. The "Norwich model", centred on a realistic self-funding and transparent economic probity is fast becoming a paradigm for how a football club should be run. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/derby-buyers-are-walking-away-after-debts-of-more-than-60million/ar-BB1gKfsg?ocid=msedgntp

[Nuff Said 5,118]

On 11/05/2021 at 16:36, kirku said:

Disgusting behaviour from all concerned. That Keogh seems to be the less guilty of the stakeholders speaks volumes. Derby really are a grubby little club. Place is a ****hole as well.

Thanks, I live there. Well, near there. 🤨

[TIL 1010 4,737]

On 12/05/2021 at 11:51, wcorkcanary said:

Where is our expert on  Brexit, masks and paying up contracts when we need him. Probably studying Formations and stats I reckon.👍😉😇

I am at a loss to think who you could possibly be talking about wcorkio.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

8 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

I am at a loss to think who you could possibly be talking about wcorkio.

Not many crimes solved on your watch then Tillo?😉😇👍

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

On 12/05/2021 at 11:43, Hank shoots Skyler said:

They've just been debating this on Talksport and I thought Simon Jordan raised several good points.

Firstly, Keogh injured himself as a result of getting himself involved in a totally non-sporting, deliberately negligent and criminal incident. 

Second, Keogh, as club captain, and as 7-10 years' the senior person in the situation, surely is supposed to be the one who leads by example and sets the standard to the rest of the team? He clearly failed in his duties. They're all to blame of course, but Keogh IMO more so. 

So yes the treatment was different between Keogh and the other two, but Lawrence and Bennett were able to continue playing, their actions did not lead to a long-term injury and a great financial loss to the club. 

Derby also initially offered Keogh a reduced wage (although sounds like it was a measly offer), before sacking him when he refused to take it. 

All in all maybe you can argue the dismissal was unfair (I don't really think it was super unfair), but surely Keogh cannot be entitled to a full pay-out for 2 years of missed wages, during which time he's also been collecting a wage for MK Dons / Huddersfield. 

He's basically come out of this better than he would have if it had never happened!

I’ve only just read this . So apologies . 
 

If this is what Jordan is saying , then he is mixing various legal arguments . It makes little sense what he is saying . 
 
Keogh injured himself ? No he didn’t . He was a passenger in a car . Passenger liability is a civil claim and nothing to do with Employment Law. (Unless the vehicle is being used for Business which this wasn’t 
 

Keough as club captain should “lead by example”. Nonsense . Unless there is a contractual obligation in his contract to “lead by example” then this is irrelevant . There would be no implied authority or control. Keough is an employee same as any other . He isn’t a director or even a manager so no implied seniority applies . It is not his job to control the actions of other employees 

The judgement was (I assume) about treating an employee in a different manner to other employees. You can’t do that . You can’t fire someone for an action (gross misconduct) where others have also committed the action . 
 

So whilst I would bow to Simon Jordan on many things , this is claptrap . 

[Ward 3 372]

What a couple of c.hunts leaving a man unconscious through them being irresponsible. Never liked tom Lawrence, always thought he's a jumped up little ....

I've always thought keogh was a decent professional who gave his all to Derby to be treated like that. Appalling 

[sgncfc 1,227]

17 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Keough as club captain should “lead by example”. Nonsense . Unless there is a contractual obligation in his contract to “lead by example” then this is irrelevant . There would be no implied authority or control. Keough is an employee same as any other . He isn’t a director or even a manager so no implied seniority applies . It is not his job to control the actions of other employees 

I would take issue with some of this bit. The argument would be that as club captain his employers should expect him to display a higher standard of behaviour than the norm - there is a responsibility that comes with the appointment, especially if he is receiving a higher wage than he would otherwise receive as a result, which is likely.

Whether or not that status impacted on his decision making in these circumstances, I have no idea. As a passenger, he may have been encouraging the driver; or he may have simply been wanting a lift home. We will never know, but that's what courts are for, so given the award it would seem that he was entirely innocent and that Derby's actions were inappropriate.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,808]

Obviously he should've shown better judgement than to get in the car in the first place, especially considering the club did offer the players taxis home, but ultimately Keogh's crime was being 33 years old with little resale value.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

I would take issue with some of this bit. The argument would be that as club captain his employers should expect him to display a higher standard of behaviour than the norm - there is a responsibility that comes with the appointment, especially if he is receiving a higher wage than he would otherwise receive as a result, which is likely.

Whether or not that status impacted on his decision making in these circumstances, I have no idea. As a passenger, he may have been encouraging the driver; or he may have simply been wanting a lift home. We will never know, but that's what courts are for, so given the award it would seem that he was entirely innocent and that Derby's actions were inappropriate.

The point I’m making is that all of this is implied and not contractual . Unless the contract says Club Captain (which I doubt ) then implication isn’t much of an argument . 
 

“encouraging the driver” would bear no significance on a licensed driver . Anymore than me encouraging  you do something that you know to be wrong (driving whilst drunk) 

We’ll stop now. Otherwise I may have to start charging my usual fee 😂

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

16 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

The point I’m making is that all of this is implied and not contractual . Unless the contract says Club Captain (which I doubt ) then implication isn’t much of an argument . 
 

“encouraging the driver” would bear no significance on a licensed driver . Anymore than me encouraging  you do something that you know to be wrong (driving whilst drunk) 

We’ll stop now. Otherwise I may have to start charging my usual fee 😂

What, a Sainsbury's meal deal for lunch?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Obviously he should've shown better judgement than to get in the car in the first place, especially considering the club did offer the players taxis home, but ultimately Keogh's crime was being 33 years old with little resale value.

Plus being injured for 12 months, I doubt we'd have seen different treatment had he been able to continue playing

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

I’ve only just read this . So apologies . 
 

If this is what Jordan is saying , then he is mixing various legal arguments . It makes little sense what he is saying . 
 
Keogh injured himself ? No he didn’t . He was a passenger in a car . Passenger liability is a civil claim and nothing to do with Employment Law. (Unless the vehicle is being used for Business which this wasn’t 
 

Keough as club captain should “lead by example”. Nonsense . Unless there is a contractual obligation in his contract to “lead by example” then this is irrelevant . There would be no implied authority or control. Keough is an employee same as any other . He isn’t a director or even a manager so no implied seniority applies . It is not his job to control the actions of other employees 

The judgement was (I assume) about treating an employee in a different manner to other employees. You can’t do that . You can’t fire someone for an action (gross misconduct) where others have also committed the action . 
 

So whilst I would bow to Simon Jordan on many things , this is claptrap . 

Of course Jordan did say it much better than I did.

I'm not really privy on the legal side, which is obviously in Keogh's favour. I understand the 'club captain' aspect is very difficult to pinpoint but I think it adds weight to his wrongdoing just from Derby's point of view. 

Just generally speaking though I'm surprised that getting injured involved in a criminal and totally negligent activity isn't in of itself enough to warrant a sacking - when those injuries directly affect your ability to do your contracted work for a substantial amount of time (in this case being 1 year our of 2 years left contracted). 

Of course the other players did not sustain long term injuries, which is why they were treated different.

Keogh has got away with one big time IMO. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Of course Jordan did say it much better than I did.

I'm not really privy on the legal side, which is obviously in Keogh's favour. I understand the 'club captain' aspect is very difficult to pinpoint but I think it adds weight to his wrongdoing just from Derby's point of view. 

Just generally speaking though I'm surprised that getting injured involved in a criminal and totally negligent activity isn't in of itself enough to warrant a sacking - when those injuries directly affect your ability to do your contracted work for a substantial amount of time (in this case being 1 year our of 2 years left contracted). 

Of course the other players did not sustain long term injuries, which is why they were treated different.

Keogh has got away with one big time IMO. 

But his action didn't directly bring about his injury. That was the negligence of the driver. So you cannot turn around and say "Keogh got himself injured so we don't want to pay him" when you are going to pay the person directly responsible for his injury.

He could actually sue the driver for personal injury and almost certainly win. In tort law the chain of causation matters and Keogh getting into the car drunk to getting injured is two steps along the chain and will be disregarded. The driver's negligence was the direct cause of the incident that injured him.

Derby were motivated by greed only, and the courts have rightly judged them poorly. 

[kirku 1,332]

7 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Thanks, I live there. Well, near there. 🤨

Sorry, a fine city it is not

[Nuff Said 5,118]

2 minutes ago, kirku said:

Sorry, a fine city it is not

I’ve seen worse TBH. It’s a jewel if you like real ale pubs.