Frankie McAvoy

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

Appointed Preston manager on a permanent basis. He was perhaps unfairly characterized here as 'fat frankie' and derided by fans when things went wrong here, but he's obviously got something about him and Webber wanted to keep him on as a coach but once again it looks like a case of an owner going for the cheap option and appointing the assistant. 

In the modern era does this ever work? I just don't get the thinking behind decisions like this. The assistant manager is unlikely to have radically different views on how to set a team up than the guy he works under otherwise they wouldn't be working together and you're taking an awful risk on someone unproven and who before probably got to play the good cop in the dressing room and now you're asking him to fundamentally change his relationship with all the players and hoping it works. 

You could argue that appointing the assistant to a manager who was always successful could provide continuity and in the past this worked really well for us in the 80's and early 90's but if you're promoting a member of the management team that was failing well...I just don't get it. 

i don't get the thinking behind a lot of appointments to be honest, but can anyone give me an example of when a long time assistant has come in and done a good job at a club at any time in the past 10/15 years? 

[daly 499]

Greggs will be pleased with appointment 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

1 minute ago, daly said:

Greggs will be pleased with appointment 

Looks like he's lost a few rolls to be fair to him

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

16 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

i don't get the thinking behind a lot of appointments to be honest, but can anyone give me an example of when a long time assistant has come in and done a good job at a club at any time in the past 10/15 years? 

Nigel Worthington was assistant here before becoming boss and winning the league....

[TheGunnShow 5,908]

Wasn't that essentially how the old Liverpool Boot Room worked?

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

5 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Nigel Worthington was assistant here before becoming boss and winning the league....

It's worked in the past, I mean nowadays. Can't think of any examples of the top of my head.

Appointing managers is such a weird one. When it comes to players you try to go for the best available that you can afford. With managers people are appointed because of affiliation with the club, or because they did well during an audition period or sometimes out of sentimentality.

 

For such an important position it just seems strange to me that the focus isn't always on getting the best person possible and often seems more of an emotional decisions. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

11 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Wasn't that essentially how the old Liverpool Boot Room worked?

Assistants following successful managers and I agree that can be a good choice for the sake of continuity but 99% of the time it's the assistant of a failed manager and that decision makes little sense to me

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

This appointment is a real surprise to me, not least because I hadn’t realised Neil had been sacked several weeks back...🤓

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Good points made in the OP, but that said, if Farke were to leave then Edmund Riemer would be 100% my number 1 choice to replace him.

[detroit94 8]

So John Bond to Ken Brown to Dave Stringer to Mike Walker was a failure was it 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,776]

2 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Nigel Worthington was assistant here before becoming boss and winning the league....

 

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Wasn't that essentially how the old Liverpool Boot Room worked?

 

24 minutes ago, detroit94 said:

So John Bond to Ken Brown to Dave Stringer to Mike Walker was a failure was it 

 

I think you guys may have missed some things in the OP:

2 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

In the modern era does this ever work? I just don't get the thinking behind decisions like this. The assistant manager is unlikely to have radically different views on how to set a team up than the guy he works under otherwise they wouldn't be working together and you're taking an awful risk on someone unproven and who before probably got to play the good cop in the dressing room and now you're asking him to fundamentally change his relationship with all the players and hoping it works. 

You could argue that appointing the assistant to a manager who was always successful could provide continuity and in the past this worked really well for us in the 80's and early 90's but if you're promoting a member of the management team that was failing well...I just don't get it. 

i don't get the thinking behind a lot of appointments to be honest, but can anyone give me an example of when a long time assistant has come in and done a good job at a club at any time in the past 10/15 years? 

I agree completely with Christoph. It was successful in the 70s, 80s and 90s, as was the old player-manager at times, but I can't think of any successful number two promotions towards the top end of English football in the last 20 years, unless there's someone obvious I'm forgetting. It's reached the point where very few clubs do it now because it just doesn't seem to work.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

28 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I think you guys may have missed some things in the OP:

I agree completely with Christoph. It was successful in the 70s, 80s and 90s, as was the old player-manager at times, but I can't think of any successful number two promotions towards the top end of English football in the last 20 years, unless there's someone obvious I'm forgetting. It's reached the point where very few clubs do it now because it just doesn't seem to work.

I didn't miss anything. at all. Don't be so pretentious. 

Worthington got the job in 2001 (caretaker from December 2000). If you want to be the one to suggest that Darren Huckerby, Dean Ashton, Peter Crouch etc are part of some by gone era of football, you go right ahead. 

The fact is there are hundreds of examples of people stepping up from jobs within to take bigger jobs. Hans Flick, Bayern's boss who is about to leave for the German national side, joined Bayern as assistant to Nico Kovac. 

Gareth Southgate became England boss after being the U21 manager.

Jason Tindall just did it and failed at Bournemouth.

I'm sure Watford must have had an assistant appointed manager. They change managers so frequently I suspect everyone gets a go at least once. 

Managers come from lots of different sources. Just because assistants don't typically make good managers, doesn't mean this won't work out for Preston. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,776]

3 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I didn't miss anything. at all. Don't be so pretentious. 

Worthington got the job in 2001 (caretaker from December 2000). If you want to be the one to suggest that Darren Huckerby, Dean Ashton, Peter Crouch etc are part of some by gone era of football, you go right ahead. 

The fact is there are hundreds of examples of people stepping up from jobs within to take bigger jobs. Hans Flick, Bayern's boss who is about to leave for the German national side, joined Bayern as assistant to Nico Kovac. 

Gareth Southgate became England boss after being the U21 manager.

Jason Tindall just did it and failed at Bournemouth.

I'm sure Watford must have had an assistant appointed manager. They change managers so frequently I suspect everyone gets a go at least once. 

Managers come from lots of different sources. Just because assistants don't typically make good managers, doesn't mean this won't work out for Preston. 

Football has changed a lot in the last 20 years, and I maintain that I can't think of any successful examples from the Premier League or Championship since Worthington. There have been a few examples in international football over the same timeframe, but international football and club football are very different, and of course if you cast your net into world football you'll find the odd example here and there.

I'm not saying that McAvoy won't be a success for Preston as every appointment is different and should be judged on its own merits, but you can't deny that in recent times it is a model that hasn't been successful at the top level of English football, mainly for the reasons that @Christoph Stiepermannmentioned.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Football has changed a lot in the last 20 years, and I maintain that I can't think of any successful examples from the Premier League or Championship since Worthington. There have been a few examples in international football over the same timeframe, but international football and club football are very different, and of course if you cast your net into world football you'll find the odd example here and there.

I'm not saying that McAvoy won't be a success for Preston as every appointment is different and should be judged on its own merits, but you can't deny that in recent times it is a model that hasn't been successful at the top level of English football, mainly for the reasons that @Christoph Stiepermannmentioned.

It's a model that hasn't been adopted, thus giving it little chance to be a success. 

It's more likely for an assistant to become a manager at a different club (for example Huddersfield's manager) because most assistants are very much part of the team of the manager and tend to leave as and when the manager does. 

Like I said, I don't think it's fair to say that assistants don't tend to be successful. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,776]

11 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

It's a model that hasn't been adopted, thus giving it little chance to be a success. 

It's more likely for an assistant to become a manager at a different club (for example Huddersfield's manager) because most assistants are very much part of the team of the manager and tend to leave as and when the manager does. 

Like I said, I don't think it's fair to say that assistants don't tend to be successful. 

As I previously said, every appointment is different so you can't apply a 'one size fits all' rule, but you've said yourself that it's a model that is rarely adopted, certainly compared to previous decades, and the reason is because it seldom works in modern football.

[Grant Holts Moustache 105]

Maybe not the norm in England but does work elsewhere.

Hansi Flick did alright after being Bayern Assistant first.

[NeymarSmith 130]

16 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

Good points made in the OP, but that said, if Farke were to leave then Edmund Riemer would be 100% my number 1 choice to replace him.

Seriously? Even if DF was to go tomorrow?

You would also assume that the whole coaching team (the big ones anyhow)he would take, which is Df, Eddie Reimer, Christopher John and christoph domogalla

I assume ed wooton the GK.coach would stay? 

Who's our reserve coach btw? Is he any good?

 

Also, with regards to the OP - I'd say that when Alan Irvine took over, all be it for a small chunk of the season, he done well, does this count?

 

 

[Midlands Yellow 3,920]

Gunn and Adams prove it can work. 

[Michael Starr 519]

It won't work. I give him a year. Quote me on it

[Alex Moss 2,165]

2 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

Seriously? Even if DF was to go tomorrow?

You would also assume that the whole coaching team (the big ones anyhow)he would take, which is Df, Eddie Reimer, Christopher John and christoph domogalla

I assume ed wooton the GK.coach would stay? 

Who's our reserve coach btw? Is he any good?

 

Also, with regards to the OP - I'd say that when Alan Irvine took over, all be it for a small chunk of the season, he done well, does this count?

 

 

I’m not working on that quite likely basis though. Just merely pointing out in the context of this thread that Riemer, as an assistant manager or coach, would be my choice to succeed Farke if the possibility were there, which I’m sure it would be as at some point he might fancy the number 1 job himself.

[TIL 1010 4,717]

Thomas Frank at Brentford has made a good job of it after stepping up from assistant when Dean Smith went to Villa.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,776]

1 minute ago, TIL 1010 said:

Thomas Frank at Brentford has made a good job of it after stepping up from assistant when Dean Smith went to Villa.

Good call! That's the obvious one I'd probably forgotten that I was referring to!

However, that refers back to the OP's original point about following a successful manager. Continuity in those cases can occasionally work whereas appointing the number two after the original number one gets sacked is much rarer. 

[sgncfc 1,221]

4 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

It won't work. I give him a year. Quote me on it

He'll be gone before Christmas when Preston are in the bottom 3.

[sgncfc 1,221]

11 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Good call! That's the obvious one I'd probably forgotten that I was referring to!

However, that refers back to the OP's original point about following a successful manager. Continuity in those cases can occasionally work whereas appointing the number two after the original number one gets sacked is much rarer. 

 

27 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Thomas Frank at Brentford has made a good job of it after stepping up from assistant when Dean Smith went to Villa.

Well, that's debatable. I guess it depends how you define success. They certainly know how to get results for half a season at a time, but I'm not sure that is success. He lost 8 of his first 10 games; he blew promotion last season when it was easier not to and they blew it again this season after being given the title at Christmas. They've sold £75m (net) of players since he was appointed so that might be considered a success, but that's less than one years TV money in the EPL.

If he doesn't get through the playoffs, his future is probably not assured. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Thomas Frank at Brentford has made a good job of it after stepping up from assistant when Dean Smith went to Villa.

He was hired soon before Smith left and was obviously earmarked to be the replacement, it's slightly different, he wasn't Smith's man and had been a manager previously. The same goes for Woodgate and the guy at Bayern. If we bought in a previously successful manager to work as assistant to Daniel Farke 2 months before the end of the season because he isn't extending his contract then put him in charge after Farke leaves I wouldn't class that as replacing him with an assistant despite it technically being correct.

My whole issue with this is owners somehow thinking out of everyone they could possibly attract worldwide they somehow come to the decision that the best candidate available just happens to already be in the building already working as part of a failing management team. It's a lazy case of going for the cheap option and I think owners should be criticized for taking this approach. In our case we made that mistake twice with Gunn and Adams (not an assistant I know) and with all the other countless examples in recent times it's a mistake I really hope we don't make again and it does make me despair a bit when I see other clubs making that mistake. Webber wanted a manager that met a certain set of parameters and went out, did his homework and got his man, he didn't just think yea we need to raise some money by promoting youth players...I know! Matt Gills the youth team manager and he used to play for us, perfect!

In regards to it working in the past I'd say football in England was a lot less tactically advanced pre 2005-ish, especially outside of the PL. It was more important to be a good man manager/motivator and be able to command the respect of players than it was to be tactically adept, it was easier for owners to spot potential in in-house staff because being a good character, a leader and having the respect of the players could get you a long way meant they could be a good manager. Not so much anymore, the role has changed. 

In the interest of fairness I've thought of one name that contradicts what I've said, Chris Hughton. But that's all i can think of. Let's see if anyone can name any other examples of success stories where the guy had never managed before, was brought in alongside or by the outgoing manager himself and has had a successful career in the past 15 years?

 

 

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

There have been quite a few examples in recent times but maybe not many who have lasted longer than a season or two: 

Garry Monk at Swansea 

Darren Moore at West Brom

Craig Shakespeare at Leicester 

All managers who came in and done decent jobs for a while. 

Wasn't Roberto Di-Matteo the assistant manager before winning the champions league with Chelsea? 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

24 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

My whole issue with this is owners somehow thinking out of everyone they could possibly attract worldwide they somehow come to the decision that the best candidate available just happens to already be in the building already working as part of a failing management team.

Not quite the same but Ole Gunnar Solskjaer meets this definition for Man United doesn't he, and he's improved them this season. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

Plus, in case I get any pushback about the game being less tactically advanced back then let's look at 2005...

Sam Allardyces Bolton qualified for the Europa League

Steve McLaren was a highly rated PL manager who lso qualified for Europe, plus if you watch the full match replay on youtube note how much better structured they are than us...a team managed by Steve McLaren.......

Teams managed by Bryan Robson, Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce all survived comfortably. Stuart Pearces Man City finished 8th!!

Paul Jewell took Wigan from League 1 to the PL

 

It was definitely a different time

 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

5 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

There have been quite a few examples in recent times but maybe not many who have lasted longer than a season or two: 

Garry Monk at Swansea 

Darren Moore at West Brom

Craig Shakespeare at Leicester 

All managers who came in and done decent jobs for a while. 

Wasn't Roberto Di-Matteo the assistant manager before winning the champions league with Chelsea? 

I'll give you Di Matteo and maybe Gary Monk, although I'd say Monk was profiting mainly from previous regimes and basically started the rot that got them eventually relegated and has turned out to be a pretty rubbish manager, Shakespeare quite typical, did okay for a while then disappeared off the face of the earth.

Assistants often do okay for a while, they can be good for a bounce as they get to play the good cop in the dressing room and can lift the players a bit at first, but it rarely ever lasts long term

[king canary 7,560]

12 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I'll give you Di Matteo and maybe Gary Monk, although I'd say Monk was profiting mainly from previous regimes and basically started the rot that got them eventually relegated and has turned out to be a pretty rubbish manager, Shakespeare quite typical, did okay for a while then disappeared off the face of the earth.

Assistants often do okay for a while, they can be good for a bounce as they get to play the good cop in the dressing room and can lift the players a bit at first, but it rarely ever lasts long term

Only Shakespeare out of those was an assistant too. Monk was a player who became player manager, Moore was a coach. Often they have a bit more distance from the manager they replace than the direct assistant.