The Case for the Defence

[FatCanary 249]

Just stumbled across the stat that our 36 goals conceded is a club record (on goals per game) and three fewer in a 46 game season than our much lauded (and rightly so) partnership of Malky and Flem. I've seen so many posters hark back to 'what we wouldn't give for Malky and Flem' after yet another dodgy goal slipped through our fingers in days gone by, and I understand that on a reactionary basis- and yet

 

Surely it must be the consensus that a starting pair of Gibson and Hanley are good enough for the Premier League? Their metrics are ridiculous and even for the seasoned stat-hating veteran among you it is clear that both are leaders with good recovery speed who use the ball well, Hanley a phenomenal wall of a stopper who makes mistakes in fewer and fewer games all the time, and Gibson a positionally intelligent defender who can drop off with runners and has a fantastic range of passing opening out and stepping in on that left foot. They haven't even played the whole season together due to injury! Of course we will probably need a CB or two in through the door in the summer to help out as it might be a bit too fearsome for young Andy O and Christoph for all of his leadership and intelligence just isn't as technically able as our current pair, but that's a different debate - what I'm saying is...

 

if you believed in Craig Fleming and Malky Mackay, why don't you believe in Ben Gibson and Grant Hanley?

[Gordon Bennett 914]

They deserve the chance to start the first game if both fit, and you would expect a signing of at least equal ability in the squad pushing them both with one of the current back ups as fourth choice. 

[FatCanary 249]

Would agree, and expect that to be Christoph as we should use the chance to get Omobamidele a season starting at Championship level.

[canarycop 232]

I don't expect that to be Zimmerman. I expect 1 if  not 2 new centre backs. Omabamidele should stay with the squad as well. He has been better than expected

[FatCanary 249]

2 minutes ago, canarycop said:

I don't expect that to be Zimmerman. I expect 1 if  not 2 new centre backs. Omabamidele should stay with the squad as well. He has been better than expected

I don't think it'll help his development and I think the gap to the Premier League is too big at 18. I think a loan with guaranteed first team football is both what is best for him and what we will do. I think what Christoph gives the dressing room is why he will be fourth choice. We also aren't targeting positional strengthening, just the starting 11 (as initial priority, according to Webber via Southwell) so any CB backup signing will be 2nd priority. That's what's happening)

 

edit: making assumptions like this about talent like Andy on bridging that PL gap is what did for us last time.

Edited May 10, 2021 by FatCanary
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[lake district canary 4,830]

8 minutes ago, FatCanary said:

Would agree, and expect that to be Christoph as we should use the chance to get Omobamidele a season starting at Championship level.

I dont get this "loan him out" thing about Omobamidele.  No reason to imo, he's made the breakthrough to the first team and imo you only send out players on loan who need to show they are ready for the first team.

He has shown he is up to the task and so what he is only 18?  So what it's the PL?  Where better to learn than actually in the top league?  He'll get chances to play in cup games, occasional PL appearances from the bench and if there is an injury/suspension, the chance to start games.  

Show trust in him and watch him flourish.

[FatCanary 249]

I'm not necessarily saying it's because he's 18.

 

Saying 'so what it's the PL' is incredibly naive, though.

I know you're a romanticist, but I disagree that it is the best thing to do. He has been very good, but a season of mostly cup appearances is not going to help his career anything like a full season starting would do.

Have you read much around youth development, just out of interest? 🙂 

[FatCanary 249]

A slightly strange decision to jump on what was very much a side note to the thread, anyway.

If Omobamidele is good enough to compete with Gibson and Hanley when both are fit, then he should stay at our club next season.

If you have any doubt at all about his ability to do that, then you loan him out so as not to stunt his development.

[vlad666 207]

14 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I dont get this "loan him out" thing about Omobamidele.  No reason to imo, he's made the breakthrough to the first team and imo you only send out players on loan who need to show they are ready for the first team.

He has shown he is up to the task and so what he is only 18?  So what it's the PL?  Where better to learn than actually in the top league?  He'll get chances to play in cup games, occasional PL appearances from the bench and if there is an injury/suspension, the chance to start games.  

Show trust in him and watch him flourish.

How many games will he play in the premier league? At the start of the season I assume he’d be 4th or 5th in line at best. After making the breakthrough to stay with the first team and hardly play isn’t beneficial. A good loan to the championship where he plays regularly and gains more vital experience will do him the world of good. Also to help develop more physically. 

[FatCanary 249]

1 minute ago, vlad666 said:

How many games will he play in the premier league? At the start of the season I assume he’d be 4th or 5th in line at best. After making the breakthrough to stay with the first team and hardly play isn’t beneficial. A good loan to the championship where he plays regularly and gains more vital experience will do him the world of good. Also to help develop more physically. 

This, there'll always be a few people who say 'if yer good enough yer old enough' but that completely eschews the nuance of the youth development strategy that is driving our success and i'm so glad those people have no power at our club.

[king canary 8,757]

I'm of the opinion that a new central defender is in our top 3 priorities next season. Zimmerman is too often injured, Gibson will be coming back from injury and Hanley has spent most of his career as a solid but unspectacular second tier defender. I'm not saying he can't step up but I think we'd be looking for someone who can really push Hanley/Gibson for a starting role.

[GenerationA47 864]

Yes  looks like strong  new 1st-choice/competing

 

CB

RB

DM and

STR

will definitely be needed.
 

Hopefully not AM. Signs are Emi will stay currently, but we must bring in backup/understudy in any case since things may not work out with Dowell, and no-one  can rule out Emi being poached next Jan.

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

Of course Omobamidele needs a season on loan  ... the alternative would be to spend the season as fourth choice behind Hanley, Gibson, new signing and then possibly even Zimbo (if fit.) He needs games.

I believe that Skipp had played some games for Spurs' first team prior to coming to CR, but was still deemed in need of a loan out for a season. Look what good its done him .

Edited May 10, 2021 by BroadstairsR

[FatCanary 249]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm of the opinion that a new central defender is in our top 3 priorities next season. Zimmerman is too often injured, Gibson will be coming back from injury and Hanley has spent most of his career as a solid but unspectacular second tier defender. I'm not saying he can't step up but I think we'd be looking for someone who can really push Hanley/Gibson for a starting role.

Oh I think we'll sign one certainly. No arguments on that. I think you're harsh on Hanley and I'm surprised anybody doubts him now.

[horsefly 5,301]

A third PL quality centre back is essential in my view and I have little doubt that it is a priority for the club given last season's problems. It also wouldn't surprise me if we play three at the back sometimes next season, so a third quality centre back will be essential for that option.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,261]

Both are good enough to play regularly in the PL and I have more confidence in them than I did Malky and Fleming but I worry about them getting bullied a bit by players like Antonio, Benteke, Wood etc

At Championship level Hanley is a beast, but physically he's nothing special at the top level and players like those mentioned above can quite easily outmuscle and out jump him and Gibson I worry will be bulled even more so.

I would still like to see another CB come in, one who is an absolute physical specimen like Dael Fry or Mamadou Sahko to compete with Hanley and Gibson and offer us more steel when we play against physical strikers. 

[Petriix 3,219]

While we were shipping goals in Farke's first season and the early part of our (ultimately successful) 2018-19 campaign, I was shouting loudly that the defenders were not at fault. Likewise, when we tightened up dramatically this season, I have been absolutely clear that it has been the result of overall changes to our system; specifically the midfield cover and attention to detail when we lose the ball: we are rarely outnumbered in defence these days.

I think you would be hard-pushed to claim with any credibility that the defensive personnel are better now than before we sold two of them for a combined £40M+. I think that Hanley has massively improved, largely because he has remained fit and had a long run in the first team and Gibson has been very consistent. Omobamidele has done exceptionally after being thrown in at the deep end.

Zimmermann is more than capable backup but we certainly need a fifth choice for injury cover and competition. I would hope that this is an area we look to spend significantly. If we can just find the next Ben Godfrey...

[king canary 8,757]

3 minutes ago, FatCanary said:

Oh I think we'll sign one certainly. No arguments on that. I think you're harsh on Hanley and I'm surprised anybody doubts him now.

I don't think I'm harsh on him to be honest. Being a very good Championship player is no bad thing but he isn't someone I'd be keen on banking on for a 38 game top level season. We saw two years ago what happens when we just assume everyone steps up. 

[Wrathofthefarkely 54]

I don't agree that Hanley and Gibson are good enough. 

 

Gibson, yes. 

Hanley, no. He will struggle. 

Another more mobile defender is needed. 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

Because I know everyone loves stats, it is worth throwing out there that Norwichs Expected Goals Against is 60.42 for the season, which is above the league average of 58.7 and the 10th worst in the league. Krul has won Norwich a lot of points this season but the defensive maybe isn't as good as it has seemed and has been helped by some poor from opposing teams. I feel the number is high as Norwich do leave themselves exposed at the back by attacking in large numbers, and thus give away chances and the ones they do give are are of a high value.

Will be interesting to see what is done in defence (and midfield) to potentially make Norwich a little more solid.

[BigFish 2,283]

11 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Because I know everyone loves stats, it is worth throwing out there that Norwichs Expected Goals Against is 60.42 for the season, which is above the league average of 58.7 and the 10th worst in the league. Krul has won Norwich a lot of points this season but the defensive maybe isn't as good as it has seemed and has been helped by some poor from opposing teams. I feel the number is high as Norwich do leave themselves exposed at the back by attacking in large numbers, and thus give away chances and the ones they do give are are of a high value.

Will be interesting to see what is done in defence (and midfield) to potentially make Norwich a little more solid.

So very true, defensively we were better but this is flattered by coming from a very poor base. It doesn't make us good defensively and neither does winning a very poor League. Another central defender is needed as first choice, not for competition. Skipp needs replacing and I think we need another CDM, but don't expect to get two.

[Nuff Said 5,965]

2 hours ago, canarycop said:

I don't expect that to be Zimmerman. I expect 1 if  not 2 new centre backs. Omabamidele should stay with the squad as well. He has been better than expected

Back to the "we need 5 centre backs" rubbish. Sigh. ☹

[FatCanary 249]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I don't think I'm harsh on him to be honest. Being a very good Championship player is no bad thing but he isn't someone I'd be keen on banking on for a 38 game top level season. We saw two years ago what happens when we just assume everyone steps up. 

I'm not just assuming anything, I'm basing it on Hanley's performances last year when he got back into the side and how imperious he has been this year. Both by metrics and by eye. Promise you he will be fine.

[FatCanary 249]

1 hour ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Because I know everyone loves stats, it is worth throwing out there that Norwichs Expected Goals Against is 60.42 for the season, which is above the league average of 58.7 and the 10th worst in the league. Krul has won Norwich a lot of points this season but the defensive maybe isn't as good as it has seemed and has been helped by some poor from opposing teams. I feel the number is high as Norwich do leave themselves exposed at the back by attacking in large numbers, and thus give away chances and the ones they do give are are of a high value.

Will be interesting to see what is done in defence (and midfield) to potentially make Norwich a little more solid.

Its an interesting one this, whats the xGA for just the Gibson and Hanley partnership?

[FatCanary 249]

1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Both are good enough to play regularly in the PL and I have more confidence in them than I did Malky and Fleming but I worry about them getting bullied a bit by players like Antonio, Benteke, Wood etc

At Championship level Hanley is a beast, but physically he's nothing special at the top level and players like those mentioned above can quite easily outmuscle and out jump him and Gibson I worry will be bulled even more so.

I would still like to see another CB come in, one who is an absolute physical specimen like Dael Fry or Mamadou Sahko to compete with Hanley and Gibson and offer us more steel when we play against physical strikers. 

Hanley isn't getting physically bullied on a regular basis by anybody. Any fault he has had in the past has been a lack of quality on the ball married to a bit of positional weakness, both of which I believe he has worked on to move closer to being an elite defender. No one and nothing will sway me from this view. He has had his troubles in the past but I believe he has overcome them.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,798]

Think it's fair to say everyone trusts in and bealives in Gibson

 

Hanley on the other hand, while admittedly having the best season of his career and having been immense and all, seems to be the guy with the most question marks around him when it comes to the Prem

[Move Klose 303]

20 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Think it's fair to say everyone trusts in and bealives in Gibson

 

Hanley on the other hand, while admittedly having the best season of his career and having been immense and all, seems to be the guy with the most question marks around him when it comes to the Prem

Which we are basing off of 15 apps last time round.

[HazzaJet 267]

Until this season I actually thought Hanley was no good in the Championship, though I think that’s because in the past he’s never played this many games due to his injury proneness. Provided he doesn’t have another injury ridden season, I do believe him and Gibson will be the best partnership next season

[king canary 8,757]

7 minutes ago, Move Klose said:

Which we are basing off of 15 apps last time round.

I think its also based on...

1- observing his weaker points

2- the fact he's turning 30 this year and has spent the vast majority of his career in the Championship. 

[Move Klose 303]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think its also based on...

1- observing his weaker points

2- the fact he's turning 30 this year and has spent the vast majority of his career in the Championship. 

And 30 is what? Too old? What a load of rubbish.

Maybe he has spent the majority of his career in the championship, but I bet he's at the best stage he's ever been at in his career. If anyone thinks we will bring in a new CB and just drop a fit Hanley, our captain then I think you're going to be in for a suprise