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Herman

Chipping Norton Set to become Labour..

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What is interesting is that the economic left wing (Labour and the Greens) are ahead of the economic right wing / laissez-faire wing (Conservatives and the Lib Dems).

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Oxfordshire in general is throwing out some interesting results. In my ignorance I always took it as the Conservative homeland but it seems quite a diverse county.👍

Bristol results are coming through now too. Should be interesting to see who does well.

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52 minutes ago, Herman said:

Oxfordshire in general is throwing out some interesting results. In my ignorance I always took it as the Conservative homeland but it seems quite a diverse county.👍

Bristol results are coming through now too. Should be interesting to see who does well.

Confirms that Labour is becoming the party of Graduates, academic’s, liberal thinkers, dinner party lefties. That’s not a criticism but an observation that the whole political landscape has changed and Labour haven’t quite cottoned on yet, when they do they might find a better strategy. Atm Labour is not the party of the “working class” many of its supporters now look upon that group with scorn.

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Labour has actively been middle class varsity academic for nigh on 50 years. But the voting was always working class. Because the economy mattered most. We all used to listen avidly to the Budget just to find out how much fags and beer were going up.

Because the main issue was economic. But now Hartlepool object to a remainer candidate after voting leave. It wouldn't have mattered if Labour had offered free everything, the voters weren't interested.

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

Bristol results are coming through now too. Should be interesting to see who does well.

The Greens were always going to do well the eco-socialist Republic of Bristol 🙃 

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2 minutes ago, Jools said:

The Greens were always going to do well the eco-socialist Republic of Bristol 🙃 

But you didn't mention before.

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15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But you didn't mention before.

Why would I, Grandpapa?

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Confirms that Labour is becoming the party of Graduates, academic’s, liberal thinkers, dinner party lefties. That’s not a criticism but an observation that the whole political landscape has changed and Labour haven’t quite cottoned on yet, when they do they might find a better strategy. Atm Labour is not the party of the “working class” many of its supporters now look upon that group with scorn.

Certainly in many parts of the North East the traditional Labour vote that could be relied on to pass down from generation to generation among the working class has been eroding away for some years now...even so...to see Durham Council lose its Labour control that its had since 1925 is startling..and Hartlepool by election to causing ripples..i never expected to see this kind of thing happen in my lifetime. Hard to reason, when its the Tories with Mrs. May dragging the kingdom thru years of Brexit quagmire, then Boris being what Boris is, taking us on this roller coaster ride thru the Pandemic...I would have expected at some point along this journey that Labour could, would or should have grabbed their oppurtunity but no..has not happened, quite the reverse.

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Confirms that Labour is becoming the party of Graduates, academic’s, liberal thinkers, dinner party lefties. That’s not a criticism but an observation that the whole political landscape has changed and Labour haven’t quite cottoned on yet, when they do they might find a better strategy. Atm Labour is not the party of the “working class” many of its supporters now look upon that group with scorn.

As @BigFish pointed out the other day, to criticism from someone, Brexit is still one of the main players in this. Look at the results and you can see a lot of Remain areas going LibDem/Green while Leave areas are strictly Tory with no Farage around. Labour are suffering for their "neither here nor there" approach in these areas and I think class issues maybe a red herring.

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6 minutes ago, Herman said:

As @BigFish pointed out the other day, to criticism from someone, Brexit is still one of the main players in this. Look at the results and you can see a lot of Remain areas going LibDem/Green while Leave areas are strictly Tory with no Farage around. Labour are suffering for their "neither here nor there" approach in these areas and I think class issues maybe a red herring.

Its not Brexit Herman, its a lot more fundamental than that, Brexit is just one of the results of the way politics have changed.From memory BF was talking about the impending doom of Brexit and how this will in his view change the landscape, it wont, firstly cos the doom on the scale predicted hasn't and isnt going to materialise and secondly because the underlying issues of inequality and not feeling part of the system anymore will still be there but with hope of those concerned of some levelling up. Large swathes of the country have felt displaced, the tories have capitalised on that, it was ripe territory for Labour but they had their heads too far up their own bums to realise it, until it was too late.

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It's all very strongly linked. Sorry you can't see it but if you study the results you can see the ghost of brexit all around.

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59 minutes ago, Essjayess said:

Certainly in many parts of the North East the traditional Labour vote that could be relied on to pass down from generation to generation among the working class has been eroding away for some years now...even so...to see Durham Council lose its Labour control that its had since 1925 is startling..and Hartlepool by election to causing ripples..i never expected to see this kind of thing happen in my lifetime. Hard to reason, when its the Tories with Mrs. May dragging the kingdom thru years of Brexit quagmire, then Boris being what Boris is, taking us on this roller coaster ride thru the Pandemic...I would have expected at some point along this journey that Labour could, would or should have grabbed their oppurtunity but no..has not happened, quite the reverse.

It isn't to hard to figure out what has gone wrong for Labour. Firstly, they were misaligned with their working class vote over Brexit.

Secondly, and more importantly, they have allowed themselves to be overtaken by the social justice movement sweeping across America. In doing so they have lost focus on the issues important to working class communities - a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. 

If Labours energy is spent on identity politics and Palestinian rights and ignore the results of the referendum then they alienate their traditional core vote. 

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

It isn't to hard to figure out what has gone wrong for Labour. Firstly, they were misaligned with their working class vote over Brexit.

Secondly, and more importantly, they have allowed themselves to be overtaken by the social justice movement sweeping across America. In doing so they have lost focus on the issues important to working class communities - a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. 

If Labours energy is spent on identity politics and Palestinian rights and ignore the results of the referendum then they alienate their traditional core vote. 

 

 

 

 

So the Tories, who said the minimum wage would put millions on the dole, are the party who are likely to give a fair days pay for a fair days work?😂😂😂😂😂

So you continue to deny that Israel are doing anything wrong? Boris can't even be bothered to get Zaghari Ratcliffe out of prison in Iran after he got her sentence doubled.

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

It's all very strongly linked. Sorry you can't see it but if you study the results you can see the ghost of brexit all around.

There is a link but not a causal one, Brexit isn't the cause, there are more deep seated structural issues, inequalities and disenfranchisement which resulted in Brexit and the rejection of Labour by the "Working Class".

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

There is a link but not a causal one, Brexit isn't the cause, there are more deep seated structural issues, inequalities and disenfranchisement which resulted in Brexit and the rejection of Labour by the "Working Class".

Mind you VW, at 42% turnout, democracy is being rejected.

To think what our ancestors went through to attain universal suffrage and now people can't even be bothered to use a postal vote!

Three strikes and you are disenfranchised may wake them all up.

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4 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

So the Tories, who said the minimum wage would put millions on the dole, are the party who are likely to give a fair days pay for a fair days work?😂😂😂😂😂

So you continue to deny that Israel are doing anything wrong? Boris can't even be bothered to get Zaghari Ratcliffe out of prison in Iran after he got her sentence doubled.

You keep on providing examples of exactly the point I am making. 

I have given the two fundamental mistakes that the Labour party has and continues to make. 

In reply you come up with:

The Tories,

Israel,

Boris,

Iran. 

Until you can accept that Labour party problems begin with the Labour party  you can watch your beloved party sink into terminal decline. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Van wink said:

Confirms that Labour is becoming the party of Graduates, academic’s, liberal thinkers, dinner party lefties. That’s not a criticism but an observation that the whole political landscape has changed and Labour haven’t quite cottoned on yet, when they do they might find a better strategy. Atm Labour is not the party of the “working class” many of its supporters now look upon that group with scorn.

It is a caricuture that is useful to frame a debate, but is far from the truth. The days when you could differentiate between classes, blue collar v white collar, by education etc are long gone. It is perfectly possible these days to be a graduate and working class. Secure jobs are are very rare for the young these days, the aspiration of owning your own home is largely a minority one in any achievable sense. On the other hand there are "working class" pensioners with triple lock final salary pensions, who own their home from the old metal bashing industries who are doing very nicely thank you. Most manufacturing, steel, mining and shipbuilding jobs are long gone. Largely replaced by services, retail, distribution etc at the minimum wage.

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21 hours ago, Essjayess said:

Certainly in many parts of the North East the traditional Labour vote that could be relied on to pass down from generation to generation among the working class has been eroding away for some years now...even so...to see Durham Council lose its Labour control that its had since 1925 is startling..and Hartlepool by election to causing ripples..i never expected to see this kind of thing happen in my lifetime. Hard to reason, when its the Tories with Mrs. May dragging the kingdom thru years of Brexit quagmire, then Boris being what Boris is, taking us on this roller coaster ride thru the Pandemic...I would have expected at some point along this journey that Labour could, would or should have grabbed their oppurtunity but no..has not happened, quite the reverse.

I think Labour through the Corbyn years spent too much time being ideologically pure, very left, disowned the very successful Blair years and allowed in effect Johnson in particular to move his troops actually onto the centre LEFT ground as in 'Levelling Up' in Hartlepool . Labour had left the pitch! If of course Corbyn had campaigned properly for Remain and remain had then likely won the situation I suspect would be very very different. However I can't now blame the likes of Hartlepool for grabbing at Johnson's promises (he'll say anything to win) although a moments caution would be good looking at NI and the fishermen's broken promises.

Now however,  Starmer has to somehow reoccupy that centre left ground.

Oddly Labour under Starmer are probably more business friendly than f**k business Johnson and the Brexiteers.

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

It is a caricuture that is useful to frame a debate, but is far from the truth. The days when you could differentiate between classes, blue collar v white collar, by education etc are long gone. It is perfectly possible these days to be a graduate and working class. Secure jobs are are very rare for the young these days, the aspiration of owning your own home is largely a minority one in any achievable sense. On the other hand there are "working class" pensioners with triple lock final salary pensions, who own their home from the old metal bashing industries who are doing very nicely thank you. Most manufacturing, steel, mining and shipbuilding jobs are long gone. Largely replaced by services, retail, distribution etc at the minimum wage.

Yes - I think age is the bigger divide and we have a large cohort of largely retired/retiring economically secure baby boomers. it's just a fact that many of the under 40s are frankly better educated and generally more widely travelled (leaving out institutions such the forces and national service).

Also on the 'age' divide theme I distinguish between wisdom and experience. Oldies may have experience but wisdom is different and does not grow with age. Many an old saying highlights this fact - 'It was better in my days', 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks', 'Stuck in his/her ways' and so on.  You may have experience but you need wisdom to use ! Not a given!  

Edited by Yellow Fever

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17 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

You keep on providing examples of exactly the point I am making. 

I have given the two fundamental mistakes that the Labour party has and continues to make. 

In reply you come up with:

The Tories,

Israel,

Boris,

Iran. 

Until you can accept that Labour party problems begin with the Labour party  you can watch your beloved party sink into terminal decline. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I am replying to your obfuscation.

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On 09/05/2021 at 17:44, Herman said:

It's all very strongly linked. Sorry you can't see it but if you study the results you can see the ghost of brexit all around.

I’d argue it’s almost all brexit. Until not long ago I lived in an old coal mining district, has been labour for..well, forever. At one point after whatever election or vote it was a few years back, it had I think the second or third highest proportion of BNP voters in the country. It then suddenly went Tory at the GE. 

Linked to that, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there’s a change in the make up of voters in the traditional Labour areas. Young people, especially nowadays, tend to be more liberal, we know a higher proportion of young people than old voted to stay in the EU, there are large anti racism/sexism/general bigotry campaigns led largely by younger people etc etc. If you’re growing up in an area that has the second highest proportion of BNP voters and you don’t like that, you’re probably more likely to move somewhere where there are more people who think like you. Which then leaves a much larger proportion of the old bigots who now vote Tory for brexit reasons. Probably why some of the larger city areas remained Labour at the last election while the more rural areas that had traditionally been Labour went Tory.

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

I’d argue it’s almost all brexit. Until not long ago I lived in an old coal mining district, has been labour for..well, forever. At one point after whatever election or vote it was a few years back, it had I think the second or third highest proportion of BNP voters in the country. It then suddenly went Tory at the GE. 

Linked to that, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there’s a change in the make up of voters in the traditional Labour areas. Young people, especially nowadays, tend to be more liberal, we know a higher proportion of young people than old voted to stay in the EU, there are large anti racism/sexism/general bigotry campaigns led largely by younger people etc etc. If you’re growing up in an area that has the second highest proportion of BNP voters and you don’t like that, you’re probably more likely to move somewhere where there are more people who think like you. Which then leaves a much larger proportion of the old bigots who now vote Tory for brexit reasons. Probably why some of the larger city areas remained Labour at the last election while the more rural areas that had traditionally been Labour went Tory.

Agree there Aggy - the young upwardly mobile will always leave for better jobs, better opportunities in cities where there are bright lights and the streets supposedly paved with gold. This then starts a downward spiral in the 'left behind' areas with an ageing demographic in less exciting industries.

Go west young man. 

The only solution is to bring the bright lights back to these places and stop the over centralization of in our case of London. 

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