Farke Contract Rumours

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Wolves are in the same league as us & have about the same support. They are not a step up.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

Don't be ridiculous. At the moment Wolves are a bigger club than Norwich - this is indisputable. It's not a matter of opinion and it's nothing to do with ambition. It's not blind acceptance either - simply recognition of reality.

Some facts to bear this out:

Bigger ground; bigger turnover; more season ticket holders (with over 10,000 on the waiting list as of Jan 2021); much higher average wage; team squad value much higher; owned by Fosun, (worth £4.8bn); recent team success; established EPL team.

 

We are in the same division as them next season and will be competing against them. For much of the last 30 years we've been much more successful than them yet have not really taken advantage of it. All of the other criteria you cite we could compete with them on if we chose to but we don't try and grow the club in the same way they have. We could have expanded our ground and get 35,000 in if we stay in the prem. Fundamentally, we need to regard clubs like Wolves, West Ham , Southampton and Palace (and even Leicester) as our peers/equals otherwise we are simply wasting our time ever getting promoted other than tobank some cash to keep us going for a few more years. First season up is obviously going to be challenging but we must make a better fist of staying up this time and then look to catch up with some of these teams in terms of our off field stature.  

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

We are in the same division as them next season and will be competing against them. For much of the last 30 years we've been much more successful than them yet have not really taken advantage of it. All of the other criteria you cite we could compete with them on if we chose to but we don't try and grow the club in the same way they have. We could have expanded our ground and get 35,000 in if we stay in the prem. Fundamentally, we need to regard clubs like Wolves, West Ham , Southampton and Palace (and even Leicester) as our peers/equals otherwise we are simply wasting our time ever getting promoted other than tobank some cash to keep us going for a few more years. First season up is obviously going to be challenging but we must make a better fist of staying up this time and then look to catch up with some of these teams in terms of our off field stature.  

Again Jim, I think that is a reasonably fair interpretation - yet to be disproved - and certainly a valid fear post-Webber and/or post-Farke. 

If we succeed and they leave then surely it implies that a ceiling has been reached in their eyes? if we do not stay up your highlighted text looks hard to argue with.
 

Players always ask themselves ‘am I moving forwards?’ (Their agents make sure they ask it).

Webber is the same, Farke may be also, though I think he may genuinely have other deeper, motivating factors (which is quite exceptional in football).

It is not at all unreasonable for passionate supporters to ask the same.

Jim is - we are - talking about football, about sport, competitive sport. Since when did amortising downside risks become the prevalent and only criteria to operate by? If opportunities can be grown and repeated - and we have certainly done that in this incredible year - then the fears are not justified.

But...but...we are talking about the Championship. It is not the top level. Jim should not be criticised for aspiring to that. 

The model must be careful of a pseudo-religious ‘jam tomorrow’ promise of eternal happiness. Competing must be central. Finance, intention, overriding motivations - and therefore ownership - must then be a live and meaningful discussion. ‘Just happy to be here’ is not competitive sport, Jim is right. 

Characterising the only options as ‘wild gamble’ or ‘bank for tomorrow’s inevitable losses’ cannot be the only two extreme horses in town. 

A socio model might suit Norwich well, plus - say - a 49% collective of local businesses et al (quite likely including Delia and Michael).

I would - in many ways - be sadder to see Webber and Farke go after we stayed up. It would be a depressing affirmation that the glass ceiling is thicker than it has ever been.

If we do not go up It would also be very hard to believe that equally talented players, management and approach could be repeated again. 

Time to reach out for structural and financial support with a little more ambition and a little less ‘all financiers are furriners’. Build a larger stadium, we have season-ticket waiting lists and  a fairly ‘locked’ catchment area. Create a defining brand, a narrative a feeling (which there genuinely is) around why Norwich is special.  Use it to drive for investment - as distinct from sponsorship - move the sporting values into club values, operate according to sustainability, identity resonant sectors: natural local foods that highlight our fine tradition of agriculture and horticulture for example (go far beyond token vegetable patches, use the cooking connections), create and define ‘mas que un club’ as it means for Norwich...make it a vision that translates into multiple arenas and sectors, politically and socially meaningful...

...ok I’m spitballing...though I don’t like to see understandable ambition dismissed in them-and-us fashion. There has to always be a bigger goal....a bit of rainbows and unicorns ambition. Fans need it. Players need it. Managers and Sporting Directors need it. All businesses and great leaders must very occasionally have a little bit of wilful blind self-deception, a bit of bloody-mindedness, a willingness to step over that little bit of open-water to the rickety bridge just out of comfortable step....

We are selling a dream. If we limit that dream too overtly - however pragmatically - we lose something of ourselves. 

Parma

Edited May 6, 2021 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[FatCanary 249]

14 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Again Jim, I think that is a reasonably fair interpretation - yet to be disproved - and certainly a valid fear post-Webber and/or post-Farke. 

If we succeed and they leave then surely it implies that a ceiling has been reached in their eyes? if we do not stay up your highlighted text looks hard to argue with.
 

Players always ask themselves ‘am I moving forwards?’ (Their agents make sure they ask it).

Webber is the same, Farke may be also, though I think he may genuinely have other deeper, motivating factors (which is quite exceptional in football).

It is not at all unreasonable for passionate supporters to ask the same.

Jim is - we are - talking about football, about sport, competitive sport. Since when did amortising downside risks become the prevalent and only criteria to operate by? If opportunities can be grown and repeated - and we have certainly done that in this incredible year - then the fears are not justified.

But...but...we are talking about the Championship. It is not the top level. Jim should not be criticised for aspiring to that. 

The model must be careful of a pseudo-religious ‘jam tomorrow’ promise of eternal happiness. Competing must be central. Finance, intention, overriding motivations - and therefore ownership - must then be a live and meaningful discussion. ‘Just happy to be here’ is not competitive sport, Jim is right. 

Characterising the only options as ‘wild gamble’ or ‘bank for tomorrow’s inevitable losses’ cannot be the only two extreme horses in town. 

A socio model might suit Norwich well, plus - say - a 49% collective of local businesses et al (quite likely including Delia and Michael).

I would - in many ways - be sadder to see Webber and Farke go after we stayed up. It would be a depressing affirmation that the glass ceiling is thicker than it has ever been.

If we do not go up It would also be very hard to believe that equally talented players, management and approach could be repeated again. 

Time to reach out for structural and financial support with a little more ambition and a little less ‘all financiers are furriners’. Build a larger stadium, we have season-ticket waiting lists and  a fairly ‘locked’ catchment area. Create a defining brand, a narrative a feeling (which there genuinely is) around why Norwich is special.  Use it to drive for investment - as distinct from sponsorship - move the sporting values into club values, operate according to sustainability, identity resonant sectors: natural local foods that highlight our fine tradition of agriculture and horticulture for example (go far beyond token vegetable patches, use the cooking connections), create and define ‘mas que un club’ as it means for Norwich...make it a vision that translates into multiple arenas and sectors, politically and socially meaningful...

...ok I’m spitballing...though I don’t like to see understandable ambition dismissed in them-and-us fashion. There has to always be a bigger goal....a bit of rainbows and unicorns ambition. Fans need it. Players need it. Managers and Sporting Directors need it. All businesses and great leaders must very occasionally have a little bit of wilful blind self-deception, a bit of bloody-mindedness, a willingness to step over that little bit of open-water to the rickety bridge just out of comfortable step....

We are selling a dream. If we limit that dream too overtly - however pragmatically - we lose something of ourselves. 

Parma

At risk of sounding like a fanboy here, have you written a book/ do you think you have something to contribute to the wider literature around elite sports management? I'm aware it's a saturated marketplace, but this reads very much like the work of someone who knows their Damian Hughes from their elbow, for lack of a better phrase.

[Petriix 2,834]

I'm fairly sure that most of us want to find a suitable balance where we give it a real go without risking our future. It's a bit of a strawman argument to suggest that some of us would settle for sustainable mediocrity. I genuinely believe in Webber and Farke's ability to do something spectacular without bankrupting the club.

[FatCanary 249]

One pertinent difficulty will be successfully rinsing and repeating the 'sell stars to build back better' trick in the Premier League. Finding the right personalities married to the right technical acumen to keep us entrenched in the Premier League in an affordable deal every time we have to sell an Aarons or a Buendia and expecting ambitious men like Stuart Webber and Daniel Farke to be content with the absolutely glacial progress that that entails for any more than the next couple of years is ....a bit mad, really.

[FatCanary 249]

Also we'd have to be a LOT more reliant on Neil Adams and his team probably needs expanding, as there's no way we are handing out as many youth debuts in the Premier League.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

27 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I'm fairly sure that most of us want to find a suitable balance where we give it a real go without risking our future. It's a bit of a strawman argument to suggest that some of us would settle for sustainable mediocrity. I genuinely believe in Webber and Farke's ability to do something spectacular without bankrupting the club.

I do as well Petriix and i think we will give it more of a go this season. But the fly in the ointment is that both are potentially off in a years time so its really what happens then. As we have been discussing in this thread. Will we be in the prem with perhaps a slightly more aspirational (but not reckless) mindset or will we be back down again with our parachute payments banking on another promotion in the next 2 or 3 years to keep the wolf from the door. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

33 minutes ago, FatCanary said:

At risk of sounding like a fanboy here, have you written a book/ do you think you have something to contribute to the wider literature around elite sports management? I'm aware it's a saturated marketplace, but this reads very much like the work of someone who knows their Damian Hughes from their elbow, for lack of a better phrase.

I agree. Always find Parma's posts instructive. 

[sgncfc 1,221]

Jim, the issue we were discussing is whether Farke would or could move on to "bigger" clubs. You disputed that Wolves were "bigger" when quite clearly they are at the moment. No one is disputing that we should be trying to compete with them, but currently we are some way behind them in pretty much every measurable parameter, and it would take us several years of EPL survival to catch them up so that we compete on equal terms. That doesn't mean we can't beat them in two competitive fixtures - but it does mean we are unlikely to finish above them over a season.

It is much more likely (given their billionaire ownership) that they will accelerate away from us, because they could throw £100m at any problem and we can't.

Our "mission statement" if you want to call it that is to be a top 26 team. I'm not aware that has changed. Maybe if Webber came out and updated it to top 17 we would have more of a clue about what the plan might be, and whether it is likely that he or Farke will actually stay on, given that in that context relegation would be deemed a failure.

We have been a top 26 team for 3 years now and will be again next year, whether we stay up or not. That's what they promised us.

You and Parma can pontificate all you like about being aspirational, and I don't disagree that we should certainly aim higher than two years ago, but the reality is that next season is already a success, given the current measure. The point is that if we are relegated, no one outside of Norwich City's boardroom will consider that a success, and Farke and Webber will have very limited options in terms of who they move on to.

 

[Petriix 2,834]

It’s a fairly simplistic view of things to suggest that a similar outcome (promotion followed by relegation) equates to us being in the same position. I’ve seen enormous progress as part of our continuous evolution over this period. Maybe if we finish rock bottom with 21 points again then you might be correct, but I think we’ll do much better than that, even if we don’t manage to stay up. I would hope that the squad as a whole will be better than now whatever happens next season.

[Upo 91]

For the PL 19/20 season, the goal was top 26. That goal was accomplished. This time nothing less than top 17 will do.

Ideally both Farke and Webber would sign for atleast one additional year to atleast begin expansion of stadium and find a replacement for Buendia & Pukki. There is another thing...changing of club ownership. If by some miracle we got two additional years out of Farke and Webber, it might offer a great opportunity to do it with minimal interruption. At that point both of them would no doubt be kidnapped from Norwich by a top club.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

29 minutes ago, Upo said:

For the PL 19/20 season, the goal was top 26. That goal was accomplished. This time nothing less than top 17 will do.

Ideally both Farke and Webber would sign for atleast one additional year to atleast begin expansion of stadium and find a replacement for Buendia & Pukki. There is another thing...changing of club ownership. If by some miracle we got two additional years out of Farke and Webber, it might offer a great opportunity to do it with minimal interruption. At that point both of them would no doubt be kidnapped from Norwich by a top club.

Can you give us an idea of what you think a candidate might look like to take over ownership of the club?
 

At the moment, I see the news about Newcastle and Derby and the prospect looks extremely unattractive.

 

If all you can do is describe some fantasy billionaire fan, then that is all you are doing, fantasising. If such a person existed, it would be shocking if we didn’t know about them. So it would have to be someone who has no history of following the club. The best option I can see is someone wealthy who’s in it for the ride rather than simply to derive a return on their investment, and they must be almost as rare as our billionaire fan.

[Upo 91]

10 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Can you give us an idea of what you think a candidate might look like to take over ownership of the club?
 

At the moment, I see the news about Newcastle and Derby and the prospect looks extremely unattractive.

 

If all you can do is describe some fantasy billionaire fan, then that is all you are doing, fantasising. If such a person existed, it would be shocking if we didn’t know about them. So it would have to be someone who has no history of following the club. The best option I can see is someone wealthy who’s in it for the ride rather than simply to derive a return on their investment, and they must be almost as rare as our billionaire fan.

 

Fantasy? A directed offering of stock to consortium of businesses, fans and well-to-do outsiders with Norwich roots, perhaps even a pension fund or another respectable long-term investor. Essentially dilute ownership by selling stock and using the funds to expand stadium and other physical capital. I don't know what Norwich City's value is, perhaps £150M? If 50000 people would put in £500 investment, it would amount to £25M. Add another £25M from businesses and maybe £25M from outside investors. That could be leveraged to expand Carrow Road and upgrade whatever facilities need upgrading. Current owners' wouldn't have to sell their stock, but their share would fall. Of course, the value of their smaller share would remain the same - or even increase - due to investment into physical capital.

I don't see current owners are problem as long as there is someone to keep their ethos. The risk comes from an unplanned and chaotic process of changing ownership, and possibly incompetence of the new owner.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

13 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Jim, the issue we were discussing is whether Farke would or could move on to "bigger" clubs. You disputed that Wolves were "bigger" when quite clearly they are at the moment. No one is disputing that we should be trying to compete with them, but currently we are some way behind them in pretty much every measurable parameter, and it would take us several years of EPL survival to catch them up so that we compete on equal terms. That doesn't mean we can't beat them in two competitive fixtures - but it does mean we are unlikely to finish above them over a season.

It is much more likely (given their billionaire ownership) that they will accelerate away from us, because they could throw £100m at any problem and we can't.

Our "mission statement" if you want to call it that is to be a top 26 team. I'm not aware that has changed. Maybe if Webber came out and updated it to top 17 we would have more of a clue about what the plan might be, and whether it is likely that he or Farke will actually stay on, given that in that context relegation would be deemed a failure.

We have been a top 26 team for 3 years now and will be again next year, whether we stay up or not. That's what they promised us.

You and Parma can pontificate all you like about being aspirational, and I don't disagree that we should certainly aim higher than two years ago, but the reality is that next season is already a success, given the current measure. The point is that if we are relegated, no one outside of Norwich City's boardroom will consider that a success, and Farke and Webber will have very limited options in terms of who they move on to.

 

I don't think a mission statement of top 26 is appropriate. Its defeatist. I did think they had quietly dropped it actually as i've not seen it mentioned of late. It should be top 17 as a minimum.

My point really is that Wolves got promoted one year before us? They have now spent 3 seasons in the premier league and in your eyes have pulled away from us in size to the extent that you think Farke would see their job as a step up. I don;t agree on that but we will have to agree to disagree. they will be one of 13/14 teams in that league who could go down next season and have been pretty average for most of this season. For one of those seasons we were in the same division. For several of the seasons prior to that we were a league above them. And yet we didn't pull away from them during our 2/3 year premier league stint when they were a league below us because we didn;t grow the club at all. We have to learn from that. I appreciate our owners can;t afford to do what their owners have done in terms of infrastructure but we need to find a way to stay up and then genuinely grow the club because we won;t get straight back up every time we get relegated and sooner or later the yo-yo routine will take its toll. 

 

[Nuff Said 5,089]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I don't think a mission statement of top 26 is appropriate. Its defeatist. I did think they had quietly dropped it actually as i've not seen it mentioned of late. It should be top 17 as a minimum.

My point really is that Wolves got promoted one year before us? They have now spent 3 seasons in the premier league and in your eyes have pulled away from us in size to the extent that you think Farke would see their job as a step up. I don;t agree on that but we will have to agree to disagree. they will be one of 13/14 teams in that league who could go down next season and have been pretty average for most of this season. For one of those seasons we were in the same division. For several of the seasons prior to that we were a league above them. And yet we didn't pull away from them during our 2/3 year premier league stint when they were a league below us because we didn;t grow the club at all. We have to learn from that. I appreciate our owners can;t afford to do what their owners have done in terms of infrastructure but we need to find a way to stay up and then genuinely grow the club because we won;t get straight back up every time we get relegated and sooner or later the yo-yo routine will take its toll. 

 

Jim, you constantly post ridiculous straw men just so you can argue against them. Show me anyone who can be said to “just blindly accept we will lose players or managers to the likes of Wolves, Villa, West Ham”, doesn’t want to “try and win something (at the top level)” or “not get relegated”, who sees “the sole point of the club existing as being to produce players to sell for big transfer fees” or gets “as excited about selling players for big money as they do about us winning things”?? Nobody as far as I can see.

Yes, Wolves got promoted a year before us. That doesn’t stop them *currently* representing a step above where we are now. Man City were in League 1 not that long ago - would it be wrong to see them as a step up too?

Tilting at windmills proves nothing. 

[Nuff Said 5,089]

For anyone who read this as another “Shakespearean fulcrum”: “tilting at windmills” is a reference to the passage in Don Quixote where he attacks windmills because he sees them as monstrous giants, i.e. attacking imaginary enemies.

 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

6 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

For anyone who read this as another “Shakespearean fulcrum”: “tilting at windmills” is a reference to the passage in Don Quixote where he attacks windmills because he sees them as monstrous giants, i.e. attacking imaginary enemies.

 

 

You do know Nuffo, that Jimbo's favourite expression is that " every silver lining has its cloud" ..don't you?

[Coneys Knee 941]

Anyway, back on track, please sign another long contract Daniel and Stuart. 
 

This club can go a long way yet, please be the ones to do it.

 

Too desperate? I don’t care it would be the best two signings this club has ever made if they could tie them down long term.

[kirku 1,332]

Wolves are obviously a step up from us. To argue otherwise isn't remotely credible.

[hogesar 9,618]

On 06/05/2021 at 14:10, Kenny Foggo said:

Spot on Jim... our ambitions & mission statement should be more than Top 26... or "he'll be a top player but not here". Good ownership with ambition and intent.

What owners do you want? Since you have no say in who our owners are and 99% of fans are more than happy with the direction the club is heading in, its probably easier to go find a club with the owners you want already in place.

[Tommo 51]

Hopefully Farke signs on again beyond the end of next season. But if he doesn’t then Valerin Ishmael would be a good shout as replacement, assuming he either doesn’t leave Barnsley for a much bigger club or has a shocking 2nd season !