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Midlands Yellow

How much are we spending this summer

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

It was a reasonable question until you decided that the fact we're already about to spend a chunk of money for next season doesn't count because we sold some players this season.

I was just reminding you not to forget additional funds that have and are going in the coffers.

All things considered there should be plenty more arriving even if (very unlikely) no star player(s) gets sold. 

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A bit of it is going to be luck.

We moaned at our defence last year but apart from Hanley and Zimmerman, they are either already EPL players or are possibly going to be with other EPL clubs or with us.

So maybe our defence wasn't the problem. 

We didn't score many goals last season but Teemu got a dozen and earned praise.

So maybe our striking wasn't a problem.

Our midfield had Todd, wanted by EPL club. Emi, wanted by the very top clubs.

So where did it go wrong?

Perhaps we just didn't have any luck. Forget the post lockdown form. We were a beaten squad every game. But just prior to that we were showing some form. 

So looking at our improved defensive record this season and the emergence of others, maybe spending big is not the only answer. 

Maybe we just need one or two more starters and one or two squaddies to blend with the top players we have.

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1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Have a look at the sales since that list, it makes you feel better. Let’s not use those examples to never dare spend again. 

I'm actually with you on this one, Midlands. Due to our parsimony last time out, even considering the amount we've lost to coronavirus we should be in a much stronger comparative position. It might just be that some lower Prem clubs actually start getting paranoid about the potential effect of relegation and decide not to make huge 'boom or bust' transfer plays this summer. I believe we'll be much more able to compete.

That's not to say we won't (or shouldn't) look for value, though; players in the mould of Placheta and Giannoulis will be much more feasible in terms of wages compared to players from the top five leagues. A fascinating summer ahead, and we all know that Webber likes to get the bulk of his business done early. Wouldn't be surprised to see a deal for Aarons finalised in May for £30m-odd, and then three or four signings coming in early. Then there will inevitably be a couple of loan signings closer to the start of the season.

If we could take our current squad, replace Aarons with a cheaper alternative, and then upgrade/replace the following, I think we'd be in a decent position: Zimbo, Tettey, Vrancic, Stiepi, Hugill. Oh and of course there's the massive Skipp-sized hole in the midfield that'll need filling. And Byram would be like a whole new PL-quality signing if he could stay fit, although I appreciate that's a long shot.

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The massive factor that people are (mostly) ignoring is the club's overall wage structure. A delicate balance needs to be struck between improving the overall quality of the squad and maintaining dressing room harmony while (crucially) avoiding saddling the club with onerous spending commitments against the backdrop of an uncertain future.

This will have a massive limiting effect on the type of player we're able to attract; and indeed on the type of player who might or might not sign a contract extension. We'll be obvious favourites for relegation again and many players simply won't be willing to accept the associated wage reduction clauses. It's rumoured that Naismith wouldn't accept such a clause and that we signed him anyway with fairly catastrophic consequences. We are absolutely not making that mistake again.

So we're extremely unlikely to sign anyone who's already made any kind of a mark at the highest level and we're arguably nowhere near able to sign anyone close to the level of the better players already in our current squad. We are, therefore, left with trying to fill in the gaps and plan for the future. We'll have to be creative in the market and find players willing to take a lower basic salary who are more interested in getting the chance to break into the Premier League than striking it rich.

I'm really excited about how Webber and Farke handle this window. I expect that many people will be disappointed about the lack of big-name signings, but I think we'll see some genuine investment in the future of the club. The biggest signings of them all might just be retaining one or two of the current group.

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The problem with this is we won't know how much we spent on the football budget until November 2022. 

Headline figures it is then...

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2 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

A huge axe that any executioner would be proud of. Joking apart it’s a vey reasonable question that you don’t have to guess at or take part in. 

Quite  what the last bit  of your post meant , I'm not completely sure .  Aaaaanyway,  keeping it civil,  my point is that the Club will spend exactly what they think is appropriate,  there may be 40, 50 60, 200 million in the war chest  there may be 3.147 million after projected  losses , bonuses,  Delias insatiable Hambag etc....it matters not. We have a plan and we're  sticking to it. The numbers are irrelevant,  the  incremental progress in all aspects  in paramount .

Perfect outcome for me.

.

40 million available , 30 million spent, relatively  comfortable 14th  place finish. Remainder spent on other advancement in the structure rather than players fees and wages.

 

Edited by wcorkcanary

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4 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Have a look at the sales since that list, it makes you feel better. Let’s not use those examples to never dare spend again. 

Oh for sure. I guess it's just that we often have spent wrong when spending big and yet every summer without fail there are those who say we never spend any money and Delia is somehow syphoning it off for her "retirement fund".

In fact, if you look at what I have actually said, I would love to see what Webber and Farke could do with more money in the PL. 

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Transfer fees should be avoided wherever possible, they’re money down the drain. The same quality of player costs more if they’re early on in a big contract. If we can get people in with less outlay on transfer fees so much the better, but as pointed out, we need to be careful the wages structure doesn’t get out of kilter.

 

I just think this sort of discussion is fundamentally misconceived, we could pay a few big transfer fees and end up just as badly off as we were last season which was much more down to other factors not the low level of transfer fees we paid out IMO. 

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4 hours ago, chicken said:

Very. I always refer to the players that Hughton and Alex Neil spent money on when people argue that the club haven't made funds available for managers to keep us in the premier league.

Imagine if we had not spent that money and we'd not had to have a promotion just to resettle the books and Farke had more money to spend than the change from a fiver from getting a paper, mars bar and a bottle of panda pop from the village shop?

The only players on that list that were remotely worth it were Brady, Pritchard and I am going to say Giannoulis.

The rest never proved their value. I say that being a massive fan of Klose, but for me, as much of a great guy as he is, he has been injured a lot, including almost straight after signing for us. Then compare the price we paid for him to the likes of Zimmermann and Hanley and ask if he has genuinely and consistently been a better performer. That also coincided with a time when we stopped putting relegation clauses in contracts.

I don't think I can ever forgive Hughton for pushing out Vaughan, Martin, Jackson, Holt and Morison and replaced them at great cost with Wolswinkel and Hooper with the addition of loan signing Elmander.

What that table showed to me was the risk of spending 8/9 million on players. Because you wouldn't say any of those were better than top championship level. (Let's hope Giannoulis is). 

But yet by being more clever, resourceful or whatever we got in players like Godfrey, Maddison and Buendia for a fraction of that cost and Pukki had no fee. 

 

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6 hours ago, Badger said:

"Under the current system they are calculated based on the club’s Premier League revenue from the season in which they were relegated. With 55 per cent of that figure handed out in the first year in the Championship, before falling to 45 per cent and 20 per cent in years two and three."

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-benefit-unexpected-83m-boost-20465551

Thanks for that Badger. I’ve also found something from the Pink’un that gives an analysis of what we got from our promotion 

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-finances-david-freezer-analysis-6409388

Broadcasting revenue 2018/19: £9.3m

Broadcasting revenue 2019/20: £90.2m

Parachute payment @55% PL revenue earned: £49.6m

I don’t know what our current bank balance is but so far I know we’re definitely going to be spend at least £14.2m. We’ve confirmed we’re going to sign Gibson and Giannoulis on permanent deals. Gibson is supposed to be somewhere in the region of £8m. However, Giannoulis came from a Greek team who charged us a €500k loan fee, with an option to buy for €7m if we got promoted. When he arrived €7.5m was about £6.2m on the foreign exchange, and I guess the loan fee has been paid already. €7m is currently a bit over £6m

We’ve been linked to loads of players over the season - recently two CBs and today a midfielder who can play both DM and AM

 

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9 hours ago, HazzaJet said:

Thanks for that Badger. I’ve also found something from the Pink’un that gives an analysis of what we got from our promotion 

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-finances-david-freezer-analysis-6409388

Broadcasting revenue 2018/19: £9.3m

Broadcasting revenue 2019/20: £90.2m

Parachute payment @55% PL revenue earned: £49.6m

I don’t know what our current bank balance is but so far I know we’re definitely going to be spend at least £14.2m. We’ve confirmed we’re going to sign Gibson and Giannoulis on permanent deals. Gibson is supposed to be somewhere in the region of £8m. However, Giannoulis came from a Greek team who charged us a €500k loan fee, with an option to buy for €7m if we got promoted. When he arrived €7.5m was about £6.2m on the foreign exchange, and I guess the loan fee has been paid already. €7m is currently a bit over £6m

We’ve been linked to loads of players over the season - recently two CBs and today a midfielder who can play both DM and AM

 

According to the link below, we also deferred £18 million in tax, which presumably they will pay off now + the previous promotion bonuses were £20 million + the expected loss of revenue due to covid will impact on this year as well. All of this means that we will head into the new season with perhaps £50 million + of next year's revenue already accounted for.

Last time we were promoted, the wage bill rose by £35 million to 88.9 million + it is likely to cost of millions to get rid of Drmic etc. I don't expect to see profligate spending, especially as we cannot know if/ when crowds will be allowed back.

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-finances-david-freezer-analysis-6409388

Edited by Badger
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I’m assuming “how much” means transfer fees?
 

The very question is an indicator of a lack of understanding of where the club’s money actually goes. As @The Raptor has already said, wages can easily be as much as the headline fee. A player at the end of their contract costs a lot less to buy than one with three years left. An English player costs more than one from any other country. A player who is young enough to be likely to have resale value is worth more than one who is older. And so on. None of these are any indicator of how much that player can contribute to the performance of the team. 
 

Complaining that we haven’t spent enough based on transfer fees is like Boris Johnson repeatedly talking about the dates lockdown restrictions will be lifted - dissimulation.

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3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I’m assuming “how much” means transfer fees?

I agree with most of what you say, Nuff Said. I would also add that transfer fees tend to be paid over the period of a contract. In simple terms, if we buy someone for 8 million on a four year contract, six million of the liability will be due in future seasons.

So the liability for future is not just future wages but also the majority of the transfer fee.

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For me its not about the headline figures of how much we spend, if the player is good enough then i don;t care if they are a free transfer or cost £20m. Its about seeing that we are strengthening the right areas of the team with the right sort of players. We could all see last time that we were potentially a centre back short and it cost us. We could all see we lacked a holding midfielder but Amadou didn't work out. When Pukki stopped scoring we had nobody to fill that void. Whilst there won;'t be universal agreement on the exact mix of players we need I suspect (although happy to be proven wrong if others disagree) that most of us on here would agree that as a minimum (and before consdiering replacements for any first team players who leave) we need a reserve keeper (Nyland would be easiest if he's happy to stay), another centre back, two central midfielders (one if we can get Skipp back), a reserve left back, a winger with end product and another striker option. 

I suspect that most of us would be happy to see Idah go out on a season loan to the champ and probably Martin and Omodamabile as well. Tettey will almost certainly leave and possibly Vrancic and Trybull as well. Zimmerman is a tricky one as I don;t know his contract position but it feels to me as though he is no longer a player we can rely on to stay fit or who is likely to be up to it at the top level due to his lack of pace. I would though have him as fourth choice if he's happy to stay.

The back up striker needs to make runs in behind and be able to play on the shoulder of the defender and the central midfielders and centra back need to be players with some athleticism/physicality to their game. 

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PS We should also be looking at those clubs who either miss out in the playoffs or who just missed out on the playoffs. Brentford may be different as they tend to get big money for their sales (so probably only looking there if we sell Buendia and have big bucks to spend) but Reading and Barnsley are worth a look as they have some decent players who won;t be on stupid wages. 

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I think Idah might have a chance of playing. He's got the attributes of someone people would like to see us sign. If he hadn't been injured we would have seen more of him this season. A good preseason could see him cement a place in our squad.

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22 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I think Idah might have a chance of playing. He's got the attributes of someone people would like to see us sign. If he hadn't been injured we would have seen more of him this season. A good preseason could see him cement a place in our squad.

I think you could be right Nigel - but can also see that at his age he needs regular football and being stuck on the bench behind Pukki isn't going to help him or Norwich in the long run.

I would worry if he was 2nd choice striker for Norwich next season and if he is only third choice then it would be a waste. It is a real shame about his injuries this season as he could have made some appearances and really developed. 30+ games in the Championship next season could be a great springboard for him.

Until Pukki is caput, I can't see him being ousted by anyone as he is so perfect for Farke's system and has built up such a huge amount of trust. 

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24 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I think Idah might have a chance of playing. He's got the attributes of someone people would like to see us sign. If he hadn't been injured we would have seen more of him this season. A good preseason could see him cement a place in our squad.

Never kicked on after that treble at Preston. Limited chances this season plus injuries but the lad needs a season on loan as a main striker, somewhere like Coventry perhaps? 

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24 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I think you could be right Nigel - but can also see that at his age he needs regular football and being stuck on the bench behind Pukki isn't going to help him or Norwich in the long run.

I would worry if he was 2nd choice striker for Norwich next season and if he is only third choice then it would be a waste. It is a real shame about his injuries this season as he could have made some appearances and really developed. 30+ games in the Championship next season could be a great springboard for him.

Until Pukki is caput, I can't see him being ousted by anyone as he is so perfect for Farke's system and has built up such a huge amount of trust. 

I guess that assumes we are going to play exactly the same way as we did last time we were in the PL. I've seen it suggested we sign someone with Idahs attributes to play with Pukki. Idah isn't a Hugill that's for sure.

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18 hours ago, Petriix said:

The massive factor that people are (mostly) ignoring is the club's overall wage structure. A delicate balance needs to be struck between improving the overall quality of the squad and maintaining dressing room harmony while (crucially) avoiding saddling the club with onerous spending commitments against the backdrop of an uncertain future.

This will have a massive limiting effect on the type of player we're able to attract; and indeed on the type of player who might or might not sign a contract extension. We'll be obvious favourites for relegation again and many players simply won't be willing to accept the associated wage reduction clauses. It's rumoured that Naismith wouldn't accept such a clause and that we signed him anyway with fairly catastrophic consequences. We are absolutely not making that mistake again.

So we're extremely unlikely to sign anyone who's already made any kind of a mark at the highest level and we're arguably nowhere near able to sign anyone close to the level of the better players already in our current squad. We are, therefore, left with trying to fill in the gaps and plan for the future. We'll have to be creative in the market and find players willing to take a lower basic salary who are more interested in getting the chance to break into the Premier League than striking it rich.

I'm really excited about how Webber and Farke handle this window. I expect that many people will be disappointed about the lack of big-name signings, but I think we'll see some genuine investment in the future of the club. The biggest signings of them all might just be retaining one or two of the current group.

I agree with the gist of this, but just to add a few points.

- Dressing room harmony: players don't mind if a new player joins the club on big bucks if they perform on the pitch and have the right personality / attitude off it. 

- Saddling the club with debt: yep and SW will be well aware of that. I'm expecting a few loan-to-buy (if we stay up) deals, as with the case of Gibson and Giannoulis to protect us against this. As a side note, Leitner, Trybull and Drmic will be out of contract by the end of next season, which will help us deal with that blow, in addition to the usual relegation clauses. 

- Limiting the players we can attract: True, however the pandemic is also expected to reduce the amount agents/players will demand, meaning we may be able to attract a better quality of player than we may have previously been able to afford.

- Getting creative: It will indeed be interesting to see what Webber come up with in this window. He has always been creative but I fear that the Brexit regulations, combined with your other points, will make things difficult for him. Aside from current players based in the UK, he'll have to look at players who are playing for their national team, yet playing for a medium sized club. 

- Big name signings: I don't think many fans expect big name signings. I personally now expect to have no idea who Webber's new signings are! Question marks were raised last season because of the lack of transfer fees spent, which I assume will change this time. Even if it's a couple of players for 5 - 10 million. 

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

I guess that assumes we are going to play exactly the same way as we did last time we were in the PL. I've seen it suggested we sign someone with Idahs attributes to play with Pukki. Idah isn't a Hugill that's for sure.

Similar to this season, Farke will make adjustments to the system but he won't make any major changes to the way we play. 

This brings us to reflect on where our attack went wrong in the PL. In my opinion, we were too reliant on Pukki in two ways:

1) When he lost confidence, we didn't have a quality option to replace him with. 

2) Pukki scored 11 out of our 25 PL goals. Cantwell aside, the rest of our team offered very little goal threat, which made us easy to nullify. 

Ideally, we will need a reliable backup to Pukki and a number 10 who will provide a goal threat. 

In fairness to Webber, he tried to address this with Drmic and Duda but it just didn't work out. Hopefully they will have learned from their mistake and I'm sure they'll be determined to get it right this time. 

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This situation with Idah just reminds me of "that Todwell needs to go out on loan to Rovrum" from last time we went up. Thankfully Farke saw things differently. Idah was very much in the plans for this season before his injury. I still think he's got a chance of being in the PL squad if he has a good pre-season like Todd did last time. 

I don't know what "hasn't kicked on after scoring a Hat-Trick against Preston" even means. 

https://www.the42.ie/adam-idah-new-deal-norwich-city-5310672-Dec2020/

 

Edited by nutty nigel

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I expect we'll probably see two or three signings totalling around £15m on top of the Gibson/Giannoulis deals. Would be surprised if we did more than that permanently unless our stars go for big money. Beyond that, there are certainly areas in which we can continue to use the loan market, particularly in terms of the Big Boys trusting us with another Skipp, and hopefully including Ollie himself.

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I'm going to admit it.....I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about Adam Idah!

Put it this way, if we signed a player who has spent the last year at a championship side where he has mainly been on the bench, not really had that great an impact when he came on and where even his manager wasnt sure if he should be upfront or on the wing would we be excited about that signing or think he is a premiership calibre striker?

That's even before some of our fans would pick up he has been behind Hugil, who they think is rubbish, in the pecking order.

I'm really hoping he does prove me wrong but at this stage there is no way I want to go into next year with Idah as our replacement for Pukki if he is injured or has a loss in confidence.

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Just now, rock bus said:

I'm going to admit it.....I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about Adam Idah!

Put it this way, if we signed a player who has spent the last year at a championship side where he has mainly been on the bench, not really had that great an impact when he came on and where even his manager wasnt sure if he should be upfront or on the wing would we be excited about that signing or think he is a premiership calibre striker?

That's even before some of our fans would pick up he has been behind Hugil, who they think is rubbish, in the pecking order.

I'm really hoping he does prove me wrong but at this stage there is no way I want to go into next year with Idah as our replacement for Pukki if he is injured or has a loss in confidence.

I agree to an extent, but I wouldn't write him off. There's a lot of natural ability and athleticism there. I think he needs a loan somewhere where he can be the main man, though. It must not be easy, competing with Pukki for one striker role. Hugill can handle it because he's an experienced head like Pukki so understands what his responsibilities are. Idah maybe needs time to find his personality and his individuality on the pitch, his strengths and how to play to them. But, if Farke thinks differently, who am I to argue?

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Yes I'm not sure that Idah can be back up striker for Pukki in the PL. But I'm not sure he's even seen as that player anyway. 

In the link I put up you can see a bit about how Farke sees him. 

Head coach Daniel Farke added: “It’s great news for both parties. We have a great lad and a player with lots of potential. He knows he has people who trust him and we’re a club who gives a stage to young players.

“He was capable of being called up to Republic of Ireland’s first team as well. He can play in several positions and we wanted to give him more of a stage this season. Sadly, it was stopped by an injury, but there’s lots to come.

“He will need to improve and once he returns to team training if he can keep going with his attitude, I think he will have a great future.”

I fear if he goes out on loan he will be stuck up front as a target man and that maybe wouldn't be playing to his strengths. But I trust Farke and Neil Adams to know best.

 

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I agree NN. When i said main man, i meant main striker, not target man. hopefully in a role where he is encouraged to make lots of lateral movement and move defences around as well as dropping in to link the play. If a Championship club trusted and deployed him there and he stayed fit he could have a great season as long as it was a side like Blackburn etc.

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We need cover for Pukki.  But we also need someone who can come on with 20 minutes left to play alongside Pukki when we're behind.  Also someone who offers something different from Pukki if Farke decides to take Pukki off  for any reason.

 

I like the fact with Hugill that he gives us a plan B, but he's just not have enough opportunities this season to bed himself in and clearly we can't expect him to make the step up against PL defences.

 

I think Pukki plus someone who comes in to compete for the starter position (which was our hope for Drmic I think) and probably with Hugill as backup/plan B I'm guessing.

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13 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

We need cover for Pukki.  But we also need someone who can come on with 20 minutes left to play alongside Pukki when we're behind.  Also someone who offers something different from Pukki if Farke decides to take Pukki off  for any reason.

 

I like the fact with Hugill that he gives us a plan B, but he's just not have enough opportunities this season to bed himself in and clearly we can't expect him to make the step up against PL defences.

 

I think Pukki plus someone who comes in to compete for the starter position (which was our hope for Drmic I think) and probably with Hugill as backup/plan B I'm guessing.

Am I going to get slaughtered for suggesting we could do worse than McGoldrick as Pukki backup?

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I wouldn’t look at spending £20m+ on a player unless they’re supposed to be a replacement for a departed crown jewel. For loan signings I would look for young players at big clubs (I know Roberts was hopeless, but Skipp was great) with some positive records (eg Under 21 caps for a strong country, or a decent loan spell already like Garner). 

Think Nyland would be the best option as backup for Krul - decent experience, including some PL. Despite being 37 this summer I also think McGovern might be offered one more year as 3rd choice. It just saves us a bit of money, as I think a decent new signing would be hard to get and might be a bit costly.

Think Tettey and Vrancic will go - ageing, and a bit past it. If an offer comes in for Drmic, Trybull, Leitner, Stiepermann, Heise, or Thompson I wouldn’t be surprised to see them sold, as they are all out of contract next summer and I don’t really see why it would be worth keeping them. There’s also quite a few players who I think might possibly go out on loan as well.

One player who I am wondering about is Klose. I think the reason he was sent out on loan with an option to buy is because he’s out of contract next summer, and so we could give Gibson a look into. If he doesn’t get signed permanently though I think we might keep him as a backup CB as although he’s injury prone, I don’t think he’s too bad when fit and just like Nyland/McGovern it would help save our spending. The loan spell gives him game time (26 apps, 2 goals) to keep his skills going, also at the club where he started his career to keep him happy.

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