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Big clubs possible move could ‘end football as we know it'

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4 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Norwich City have no chance of european football under the current model as that is reserved for London, Manchester and Liverpool only. Once they have departed for their sterile competition, UEFA may develop european competitions that once again involve small UK cities. Bring it on.

Uefa should co-operate with Unesco to create a tournament for the 39 World Cities of Literature. We could play against teams from Baghdad, Dunedin, Montevideo, Lillehammer, Iowa City, Ulyanovsk...

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I can’t but help it is very fortunate timing of the announcement for the ‘big 6’ what with stadiums being empty. Listening to media reporting, social media, phone-ins etc there is very real anger about these proposals, even from long term supporters of the clubs involved. Terming them ‘legacy fans’ is only going to disenfranchise them further. Can you imagine the reception Liverpool would have got at Elland Rd tonight? I think it is conceivable that games would have been disrupted by protests and such like were grounds still full.

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They should be removed from domestic leagues NOW and players banned from National sides... They won't be though and will get this through with a little bit of compromise. They are a disgrace but the fact they see Asia as more important to their bank balances than to their local fans means they will push this through. Any league with out the best clubs in the country competing will have big impact on TV rights and payments to the rest of us. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

They should be removed from domestic leagues NOW and players banned from National sides... They won't be though and will get this through with a little bit of compromise. They are a disgrace but the fact they see Asia as more important to their bank balances than to their local fans means they will push this through. Any league with out the best clubs in the country competing will have big impact on TV rights and payments to the rest of us. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, GenerationA47 said:

A lot of mick being taken out of Spurs for similar reasons at the moment

 But the question would really be why wouldn’t they be involved?

 This ‘bottom line’ illustration from that Swiss rambler says it all (a few years old but still stands):

image.thumb.jpeg.edc77386fe61ef810ac52217e88e9520.jpeg

The numbers are much bigger now, but yeah. The issue is that what they are taking is not just their revenue stream. It's the immaterial capital that created that revenue stream.

There is common capital that participants in the current system share, which supports the whole pyramid from top to bottom.  The capital is in the form of prestige, attention, reputation, history, legacy, culture, love. It can't be measured with any single metric, but it is absolutely real. It is what made football football, and what got people to watch it. That capital's income is realized as revenue when people buy tickets and watch it on TV. That revenue flows downstream...to an extent. In the future it stops mid-table PL. Forget Championship let alone L1.

ESL is a way to short-circuit the revenue cycle. Rather than let it flow in competition, it is ringfenced. That capital I talked about? It is now owned by someone who probably borrowed the initial capital from English pensioners through JP Morgan. That's Norwich City's capital. Your 100 year blood and sweat. Not only will Norwich fans not be compensated, Norwich will get even less of what is left, because the revenue is directed to shareholders of Manchester United. Peoples' attention spans and time is limited. The more stars you can pack in a team, the less attention people will need to pay to get their belly full of highlight reel football.

Forget local fine dinery. It's McD's Happy Meals for all. Build a hamburger steak factory and call it Arsenal Classic.

These clubs take not just their share of the revenue stream, but all of the shared immaterial capital, without paying a penny for it. It is a massive theft. Norwich City's livelihood is taken and people here say "good riddance"?

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5 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

 

The Super League has already lodge legal proceedings to stop this ban.

It will be hard to see if the ban can be upheld as it could be seen to be damaging to players ability to work, which is enshrined in most country's law. Are the Argentinian FA going to not call up Messi just because of the ESL? Unlikely.

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Posted (edited)

Bring it on, that's what I say.Let the 'Big Six' p**s off, isolate them from domestic European and competition so all they can do is play each other every five minutes.  

Restructure the domestic game with five national divisions ,invite half a dozen Scottish clubs to spice things up. 

Edited by MORDENCANARY
Added word

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The fact they have lodged legal proceedings suggest to me that this is going to happen and is much more than brinkmanship. Players can be banned from the world cup, there is no right to play for a national team, and domestically they can play for other clubs and qualify that way.  But this is a very hostile and aggressive move from which there is almost no drawing back.

The ESL clubs are banking on the fear of UEFA, PL etc that sanctions will spend the end of the current structure and that things cannot be rolled back. But that PL etc need to call their bluff and immediately impose some sort of penalty.  Next season's Champions Lge places should now be allocated to the leading Top 4 outside the ESL clubs.

 

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1 minute ago, Tumbleweed said:

The fact they have lodged legal proceedings suggest to me that this is going to happen and is much more than brinkmanship. Players can be banned from the world cup, there is no right to play for a national team, and domestically they can play for other clubs and qualify that way.  But this is a very hostile and aggressive move from which there is almost no drawing back.

The ESL clubs are banking on the fear of UEFA, PL etc that sanctions will spend the end of the current structure and that things cannot be rolled back. But that PL etc need to call their bluff and immediately impose some sort of penalty.  Next season's Champions Lge places should now be allocated to the leading Top 4 outside the ESL clubs.

 

That is what any case will be fought over I guess. If the Argentinian FA want to call up Messi but FIFA say they can't because he plays in the wrong competition, it could be argued that it is unfair discrimination against the player. To say a player who's 'club' is the North Korea Army can participate at the World Cup but someone who plays in the ESL cannot could potentially be a hard case to fight. Especially as it would be fairly easy to state that the main reason FIFA is against the ESL is to protect its own World Club Cup. 

I'm pretty sure the people behind the ESL were anticipating this stance from FIFA, UEFA etc and have done their legal homework. But what is for certain, it will drag out long beyond the summer and it is going to make preparing for the new season much harder for everyone. 

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13 minutes ago, MORDENCANARY said:

Invite half a dozen Scottish clubs to spice things up. 

Can I entice you with Cowdenbeath, Kelty Hearts, Ross County, Stenhousemuir, Ayr and Arbroath(Home of the smokie)

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I seem to remember that in Rugby Union one coach (maybe Stuart Lancaster or Eddie Jones?) said that players who played overseas would not be selected. Messie could play for Barcelona and not play for Argentina or go to Dortmund and be eligible. His choice. FIFA can set qualifying criteria should they wish, so long as it is not discriminatory in a legal sense it should be fine. national team selection criteria ping around all over the place.

Anyhow I feel that the opponents of the ESL must fight fire with fire, its the only language these bullies will understand. But we as fans have a role too, we can avoid buying Sky passes for any games involving those clubs,  don't watch the Carabao cup final,  when fans are allowed back in boycott the games involving them and maybe other stuff as well.

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There is a 100% way to block this.

Threaten to revoke banking license from JP Morgan and from anyone connected to this scheme under grounds of national interest.

Unknown whether it would stand. Doesn't matter. Raising the prospect would lead to immediate retreat by financiers.

THEN you relegate the clubs in question and force games off TV.

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3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Just a little aside to all the fans who have been on this site decrying Delia's and Mike's "limited" ambitions for the club: this is what you get when you invite billionaires to take over and invest their cash. They have no genuine interest in the heritage and cultural significance of a football club, or its symbiotic relationship to its fans. For them it will always be a business just like any other, or a mere play thing to satisfy their bloated egos. I suspect this will turn out to be a thinly disguised attempt by the "top" clubs to pressure their domestic leagues to give them an even bigger share of the pie to gorge upon.

This a million times over.

The amount of times i've been told Man City owners clearly care about their fans and the community because they spent some money on it; nah. It's all part of a bigger picture of somehow making even more money. Couldn't give a single toss about the actual fans.

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2 minutes ago, Tumbleweed said:

I seem to remember that in Rugby Union one coach (maybe Stuart Lancaster or Eddie Jones?) said that players who played overseas would not be selected. Messie could play for Barcelona and not play for Argentina or go to Dortmund and be eligible. His choice. FIFA can set qualifying criteria should they wish, so long as it is not discriminatory in a legal sense it should be fine. national team selection criteria ping around all over the place.

Anyhow I feel that the opponents of the ESL must fight fire with fire, its the only language these bullies will understand. But we as fans have a role too, we can avoid buying Sky passes for any games involving those clubs,  don't watch the Carabao cup final,  when fans are allowed back in boycott the games involving them and maybe other stuff as well.

Individual FAs could decide to not pick players in the ESL - I think that is possible, but whether FIFA can dictate who FAs can and cannot pick is another matter - there is no precedent for this and nothing in the rules FIFA has set out that allow for this (or so is my understanding). I don't think saying 'if you want to be eligible you have to move club/country' would stand up to legal scrutiny.  

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As an aside, this is obviously going to go on for some time. Does this make it more likely that we can hold onto our best players? I understand the finances concern but would Emi want to go to Arsenal when one of his dreams is to play for Argentina? Would he be willing to take the risk this window? I'd suggest not.

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Perhaps, but FIFA could legally say that in order to be eligible a player must play for an officially sanctioned national league. 

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7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

As an aside, this is obviously going to go on for some time. Does this make it more likely that we can hold onto our best players? I understand the finances concern but would Emi want to go to Arsenal when one of his dreams is to play for Argentina? Would he be willing to take the risk this window? I'd suggest not.

And maybe Skipp cares more about his country than his club, might make him want to force a move....

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33 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

The Super League has already lodge legal proceedings to stop this ban.

It will be hard to see if the ban can be upheld as it could be seen to be damaging to players ability to work, which is enshrined in most country's law. Are the Argentinian FA going to not call up Messi just because of the ESL? Unlikely.

Bethal, it is not saying these players can't work. By definition these players will be in absurdly well-paid jobs, and with a great deal of security, given that apparently the clubs have signed 23-year deals.

The other question, which I think is the important one, is whether the clubs would win a legal challenge if (the extreme sanction) they were thrown out of the domestic leagues. One lawyer has already said they would, because there are precedents for being allowed to set up rival leagues or competitions.

But I suspect they may not have been similar to the potential situation here, where  the argument will not be that the ESL cannot be allowed to set itself up a rival. But that if it does that then it cannot stay in the leagues and competitions of which it has made itself a rival.

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2 minutes ago, Tumbleweed said:

Perhaps, but FIFA could legally say that in order to be eligible a player must play for an officially sanctioned national league. 

They have no such rule though, they could try and introduce one, but I doubt it would get backing from enough members as they'd still want to be able to call up players who are at the ESL clubs. 

5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Bethal, it is not saying these players can't work. By definition these players will be in absurdly well-paid jobs, and with a great deal of security, given that apparently the clubs have signed 23-year deals.

The other question, which I think is the important one, is whether the clubs would win a legal challenge if (the extreme sanction) they were thrown out of the domestic leagues. One lawyer has already said they would, because there are precedents for being allowed to set up rival leagues or competitions.

But I suspect they may not have been similar to the potential situation here, where  the argument will not be that the ESL cannot be allowed to set itself up a rival. But that if it does that then it cannot stay in the leagues and competitions of which it has made itself a rival.

I think it wouldn't be a massive legal stretch to say that international participation is a key characteristic of many players' 'work' and thus argue that FIFA imposing a ban on them is illegal. It is questionable whether FIFA would even be able to get such a ban through its own governance structure anyway.

Whether the ESL clubs can participate in the Premier League and UEFA tournaments will ultimately be down to their members. To kick them out the Premier League will need to get 11 of its 20 members to agree to it - obviously the big 6 won't, so it will be 11 from 14. I would imagine that the big 6 will be able to convince several other clubs it is in everyone's interest that they are not expelled.

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Imagine a rival to the ESL with the following in next season's champions league:

Everton

Leicester

West Ham

Porto

Benfica

PSG

Monaco

Lyon

Sevilla

Real Betis

Bayern

Dortmund

RB Leipzig

Bayer Leverkusen

Ajax

Feyenoord

Olympiakos

etc etc

To me this would be much much more interesting than the ESL just playing each other year in year out.

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29 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Individual FAs could decide to not pick players in the ESL - I think that is possible, but whether FIFA can dictate who FAs can and cannot pick is another matter - there is no precedent for this and nothing in the rules FIFA has set out that allow for this (or so is my understanding). I don't think saying 'if you want to be eligible you have to move club/country' would stand up to legal scrutiny.  

I think that's the way it would go - the same thing happens in rugby union so it must be 'legal'.

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39 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

That is what any case will be fought over I guess. If the Argentinian FA want to call up Messi but FIFA say they can't because he plays in the wrong competition, it could be argued that it is unfair discrimination against the player. To say a player who's 'club' is the North Korea Army can participate at the World Cup but someone who plays in the ESL cannot could potentially be a hard case to fight. Especially as it would be fairly easy to state that the main reason FIFA is against the ESL is to protect its own World Club Cup. 

I'm pretty sure the people behind the ESL were anticipating this stance from FIFA, UEFA etc and have done their legal homework. But what is for certain, it will drag out long beyond the summer and it is going to make preparing for the new season much harder for everyone. 

UEFA rattling sabres too. We are in the early stages of negotiation here. 
 

The real argument about players isn’t about National Teams but about money . And in turn whether competitions like the EPL are brave enough to throw out the 6 teams . 
 

Imagine . A Kerry Packer style alternative competition. Players are paid handsomely to play but have to choose between the new better paid ESL  , or the regular EPL . The corollary of this is much of the extra revenue ends up with the players . Possibly not the original intention. 
 

Greg **** said this this morning . However much money a club has a huge amount goes to the players . 
 

FIFA have a massive say in this . Whilst UEFA are clear - and stand to lose a fortune from no Champions League ,FIFA. Have been less vocal . In fact FIFA like money , and have a track record of having their snouts in the trough. Where a competition attracts 3 billion , it would be most un- FIFA like to remove their involvement . 

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6 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

To kick them out the Premier League will need to get 11 of its 20 members to agree to it

I've read that the Premier League board can make a decision on its members without a vote at club level.  I'd assume the FA/PL would then lean very heavily on the EFL to make the same stand, although I'd guess having the 'big six' compete in the Championship would be quite appealing to the EFL board.

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11 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

They have no such rule though, they could try and introduce one, but I doubt it would get backing from enough members as they'd still want to be able to call up players who are at the ESL clubs. 

I think it wouldn't be a massive legal stretch to say that international participation is a key characteristic of many players' 'work' and thus argue that FIFA imposing a ban on them is illegal. It is questionable whether FIFA would even be able to get such a ban through its own governance structure anyway.

Whether the ESL clubs can participate in the Premier League and UEFA tournaments will ultimately be down to their members. To kick them out the Premier League will need to get 11 of its 20 members to agree to it - obviously the big 6 won't, so it will be 11 from 14. I would imagine that the big 6 will be able to convince several other clubs it is in everyone's interest that they are not expelled.

When the restart was being debated I think the EPL constitution said 14 votes were required. So basically all of the remaining 20 members would have to voted the 6 out? 

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Posted (edited)

Meeting tomorrow with the 14 clubs not involved in the new ESL. 

Should we be involved as we're already promoted and sheff utd relegated for next season 🤔

Edited by GodlyOtsemobor

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I only see thus turning out one way and that's these ESL clubs being allowed to have their cake and eat it too. They are too financially important to FIFA, UEFA and the Premier League. Despite all the sabre rattling and cries of injustice what will happen is they will be allowed to play in this competition and their domestic leagues at the expense of the Champions league and they will use their obscene wealth to hoover up talent into massive squads that can compete in both competitions. Every club will have Chelsea sized squads except they won't be out on loan they'll be playing 10 games a season for them.

This is how things work guys. I would honestly love nothing more than to see these 6 clubs expelled from domestic competitions and left to form their own superficial, franchised league and left the rest of us to play real football. But it won't happen, these organiseations will fold like a pack of cards and this will be the new normal soon enough. 

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12 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

When the restart was being debated I think the EPL constitution said 14 votes were required. So basically all of the remaining 20 members would have to voted the 6 out? 

This doesn't require a vote.

The Board make the decision here. The Big 6 will put forward the proposal, then it will be rejected by the board and next steps considered. Essentially, I'm no legal expert but I don't see how the big 6 could win legally. They signed up to the Premier League rules, essentially a contract, and they have broken the rules (and thus the contract) in an extremely egregious way and as such, all sanctions should be on the table. Not sure where they feel they are legally exempt from the rules they signed up to, but presumably they must feel they'd win in court.

image.png.057cefff8d798f6c8fe37b48e0d6ce3e.png

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