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Big clubs possible move could ‘end football as we know it'

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37 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

Money men at Bayern and Dortmund may very well be interested but German ownership models means that all clubs must have a 51% voting power for fans. It will be hard to convince the fans on this.

Overall though, I find the arrogance of this amazing, especially the English clubs. Man Utd have struggled to qualify often for the CL since Ferguson. I can’t remember the last time Arsenal qualified for the CL and Tottenham’s history of involvement since it’s inception is spotty at best. Yet they are all determining they deserve a seat at the top table and they don’t feel they need to earn it, ahead of a club like say Ajax. I saw that Perez said last night that these clubs need to make up lost income due to Covid. This wouldn’t be a problem if clubs kept their spending in check but they don’t. Their budgets are stretched, based on being in the CL and getting to the latter stages while having full stadia. If any part of that falls down they are over extended. They need to cut their cloth accordingly, stop paying ridiculous transfer fees and handing out huge contracts. I repeat what I said yesterday, to announce they basically want more money during a pandemic that is financially crippling many people is unbelievably tone deaf.

I think every football fan in the world would fully agree with you there - I certainly do. This constant rise in transfer fees and wages since the mid 90s is ridiculous and has made things very hard for the smaller clubs. I believe we sold Chris Sutton for £5m - now I'd say a PL striker of his quality would be worth at least £80m.

Until they got billionaire owners, Chelsea were just a mid-table side and Man City were nothing. They need to stop spending so much, and get the experience of how it feels to be a self funded club in debt with players on high wages

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10 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I think it's clear those three spaces were reserved for PSG, Bayern and Dortmund. The Germans though have no interest, thank god, and PSG just aren't keen, which surprised me as I thought they'd be one of the main protagonists in something like this.

It turns out that the ones with multi-billion owners were less keen as they don't need the money and haven't been affected by the pandemic. Apparently Man City and Chelsea weren't overly sold on the idea, but just didn't want to risk being left behind.

Bayern in particular not being a part of it is why I still think it was intended as some sort of posturing/negotiating tool re the champions league. If the idea is to have the best teams in one league, then you don’t go in to that without Bayern - only Real and AC have won more European cups (and AC have barely been in the champions league for the last decade). I can’t see that they announce this when they did, without Bayern, if there wasn’t about to be a decision on champions league restructuring. 

Clearly they want to move towards a franchise model, but that just seems poorly thought through too imo. We won’t have a draft system like most of the other franchise tournaments do. The IPL you’ve got the world’s best there every year - if someone loses form, they don’t get picked the year after. Here, you’re going to have bang average players on long contracts who can’t be shifted and the quality just isn’t there. 

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I would be interested to know what the fans of Barca and Real Madrid think of it all because they have far more power than fans of the English mafia. Their continuing involvement is by no means guaranteed because the people at those clubs who have made this decision are elected. Those clubs are member owned so it’s not implausible to think that those members could refuse to elect a president who wants to be part of this Super League.

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Posted (edited)

I can't see it flying. The weight of the world seems against it and everything from the football authorities banning players from international representation, amongst other sanctions, to our government not issuing the stadia with the necessary licence, amongst other sanctions, has been mooted. 

Neville (Gary?) spoke well on behalf of the fans on Sky yesterday, with eloquence and emotion, whilst Tottenham fans are taking the piddle at the concept:

"Despite no relegation in the rules Spurs would manage it surely?"

Edited by BroadstairsR

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Just now, BroadstairsR said:

I can't see it flying. The weight of the world seems against it and everything from the football authorities banning players from international representation, amongst other sanctions, to our government not issuing the stadia with the necessary licence, amongst other sanctions, have been mooted. 

Neville (Gary?) spoke well on behalf of the fans on Sky yesterday, with eloquence and emotion, whilst Tottenham fans are taking the piddle at the concept:

"Despite no relegation in the rules Spurs would manage it surely?"

That’s part of the joke of it for me. Spurs, unless they rectify it Sunday have not won a trophy in 12 seasons and have a spotty record at best in qualifying for the CL. Arsenal haven’t qualified for the CL in what seems like an eternity. Is Spurs/Arsenal vs At Madrid really a box office fixture globally? If they want a place at the top table, they should have to earn it as has always been the way:

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19 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Bayern in particular not being a part of it is why I still think it was intended as some sort of posturing/negotiating tool re the champions league. If the idea is to have the best teams in one league, then you don’t go in to that without Bayern - only Real and AC have won more European cups (and AC have barely been in the champions league for the last decade). I can’t see that they announce this when they did, without Bayern, if there wasn’t about to be a decision on champions league restructuring. 

Clearly they want to move towards a franchise model, but that just seems poorly thought through too imo. We won’t have a draft system like most of the other franchise tournaments do. The IPL you’ve got the world’s best there every year - if someone loses form, they don’t get picked the year after. Here, you’re going to have bang average players on long contracts who can’t be shifted and the quality just isn’t there. 

I don't think so. These clubs are in terrible (mainly) self-inflicted financial trouble and need the 300 million euros just for signing up. The backlash (Oliver Holt says two of the English clubs are already having cold feet) could turn it into a negotiating ploy but I am with Bethnal on this. This is not meant as a mere strategem to do with the Champions League.

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7 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

That’s part of the joke of it for me. Spurs, unless they rectify it Sunday have not won a trophy in 12 seasons and have a spotty record at best in qualifying for the CL. Arsenal haven’t qualified for the CL in what seems like an eternity. Is Spurs/Arsenal vs At Madrid really a box office fixture globally? If they want a place at the top table, they should have to earn it as has always been the way:

Absolutely. The arrogance is astounding. Liverpool have won the PL the same number of times as Leicester and Blackburn. Spurs have never won it and Arsenal are mid table having just managed a one all draw with Fulham at home. 

 

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1 minute ago, Hairy Canary said:

Absolutely. The arrogance is astounding. Liverpool have won the PL the same number of times as Leicester and Blackburn. Spurs have never won it and Arsenal are mid table having just managed a one all draw with Fulham at home. 

 

A stat on Twitter says Norwich have spent more time at the top of the Premier League than Spurs.

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13 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I don't think so. These clubs are in terrible (mainly) self-inflicted financial trouble and need the 300 million euros just for signing up. The backlash (Oliver Holt says two of the English clubs are already having cold feet) could turn it into a negotiating ploy but I am with Bethnal on this. This is not meant as a mere strategem to do with the Champions League.

Why announce it now though? Completely random.

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5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I don't think so. These clubs are in terrible (mainly) self-inflicted financial trouble and need the 300 million euros just for signing up. The backlash (Oliver Holt says two of the English clubs are already having cold feet) could turn it into a negotiating ploy but I am with Bethnal on this. This is not meant as a mere strategem to do with the Champions League.

I originally thought that it was bargaining leverage but I think it’s clear now that it was not the overriding motivator. That said, I don’t think any of those involved thought the backlash would be quite as severe as it has been. It’s universally hated across the board. It’s going to take so much to get this off the ground now. There is no fan support inside Europe and while I understand this is not the only market, the majority of TV money comes from Europe and sponsors looking to sell their products in Europe. Without a strong fan base in Europe, it’s hard to see where the big bucks are coming from. I mean what is the average disposable income in African/Asian countries? With the Government now threatening sanctions it’s entirely possible that the owners of clubs in England could potentially have to move the clubs outside of England. As I said previously, Real and Barca’s perpetual involvement is not guaranteed either because the fans can just vote out the incumbent presidents and elect one that removes them from it. With Bayern and PSGs absence, it then starts to look a less than super, super league.

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The money involved in this ‘franchise league’ is staggering, mind bendingly staggering. Billions for each club, just as a start up for the first few years. Enough for Levy to pay the stadium off immediately for example. Enough for every player of these teams to be on at least 400-500k a week. Absolute crazy amounts of money.

And that is why it will happen. It’s too much money. It’s horrible, capitalism at its most evil, anti-football and anti-competition, but it’s just too much money for it not to happen.

The ‘big 6’ won’t care if they’re thrown out of the PL, it’s not important to them. The PL would be a secondary competition that’ll be a hindrance to the SL. This is no power play because how do those that have set up the SL backtrack now? Why would they? Its not a way of getting their way with the new look CL or renegotiating financial input, it’s a serious proposal that is a no brainier for the 12, purely because of the amount of money involved.

I think we’ll soon see PSG, Bayern and Dortmund join as the other 3 founders. They will want the money. The German clubs will find a way to get through the ownership problem. The only reason they’re not already in it is because they need to seem reluctant and to work their way past fan control.

Why haven’t we heard from players? The majority will want to play in this SL. Again, the money will be monstrous for them and it will still be the biggest clubs in the world (though I agree with ‘the poor created, the rich stole’). What is already happening and will only become more common is that youngsters will grow up wanting to play for Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern etc more so than representing their country. Culture is changing and this will speed up that process.

The SL would love for FIFA/UEFA to ban players from playing in Euros and World Cups. Competitions they have no interest in other than a distraction from their product that could damage their assets. However I don’t think it will come to that as how can a court possibly uphold a decision to ban a human from representing their own country in a national sport. Won’t happen.

The PL have a massive decision to make and their only hope of this not happening (they have little bargaining power) is government intervention and pure fan pressure. But the fact it’s come this far is damning enough. My guess would be we soon have a PL without those ‘big 6’ and a massive shift in structure throughout the pyramid with huge financial ramifications 

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5 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

The money involved in this ‘franchise league’ is staggering, mind bendingly staggering. Billions for each club, just as a start up for the first few years. Enough for Levy to pay the stadium off immediately for example. Enough for every player of these teams to be on at least 400-500k a week. Absolute crazy amounts of money.

And that is why it will happen. It’s too much money. It’s horrible, capitalism at its most evil, anti-football and anti-competition, but it’s just too much money for it not to happen.

The ‘big 6’ won’t care if they’re thrown out of the PL, it’s not important to them. The PL would be a secondary competition that’ll be a hindrance to the SL. This is no power play because how do those that have set up the SL backtrack now? Why would they? Its not a way of getting their way with the new look CL or renegotiating financial input, it’s a serious proposal that is a no brainier for the 12, purely because of the amount of money involved.

I think we’ll soon see PSG, Bayern and Dortmund join as the other 3 founders. They will want the money. The German clubs will find a way to get through the ownership problem. The only reason they’re not already in it is because they need to seem reluctant and to work their way past fan control.

Why haven’t we heard from players? The majority will want to play in this SL. Again, the money will be monstrous for them and it will still be the biggest clubs in the world (though I agree with ‘the poor created, the rich stole’). What is already happening and will only become more common is that youngsters will grow up wanting to play for Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern etc more so than representing their country. Culture is changing and this will speed up that process.

The SL would love for FIFA/UEFA to ban players from playing in Euros and World Cups. Competitions they have no interest in other than a distraction from their product that could damage their assets. However I don’t think it will come to that as how can a court possibly uphold a decision to ban a human from representing their own country in a national sport. Won’t happen.

The PL have a massive decision to make and their only hope of this not happening (they have little bargaining power) is government intervention and pure fan pressure. But the fact it’s come this far is damning enough. My guess would be we soon have a PL without those ‘big 6’ and a massive shift in structure throughout the pyramid with huge financial ramifications 

Does anyone see the similarity here to when the Pl got off the ground?

The PL in it's infancy was a money machine for the clubs involved to the point where prior to the ESL we all considered the money involved had ruined the game where the BIG clubs had all the money and the rest were playing some form of 'catch-up'

Here we are today saying the same thing about the new ESL, so assuming this does fly, where to next?

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4 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

The money involved in this ‘franchise league’ is staggering, mind bendingly staggering. Billions for each club, just as a start up for the first few years. Enough for Levy to pay the stadium off immediately for example. Enough for every player of these teams to be on at least 400-500k a week. Absolute crazy amounts of money.

And that is why it will happen. It’s too much money. It’s horrible, capitalism at its most evil, anti-football and anti-competition, but it’s just too much money for it not to happen.

Where is the money coming from though? I won’t pay watch it and I doubt I’m the only one. This is universally hated by football fans. If you can’t get TV revenue from people watching there is large chunk of money gone. If the viewing figures are not high, why are companies going to to spend big on sponsorship and advertising?

 

9 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:The SL would love for FIFA/UEFA to ban players from playing in Euros and World Cups. Competitions they have no interest in other than a distraction from their product that could damage their assets. However I don’t think it will come to that as how can a court possibly uphold a decision to ban a human from representing their own country in a national sport. Won’t happen.

If FIFA can ban players from playing for their clubs due to missing internationals for no good reason, then they can do the reverse.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

Does anyone see the similarity here to when the Pl got off the ground?

The PL in it's infancy was a money machine for the clubs involved to the point where prior to the ESL we all considered the money involved had ruined the game where the BIG clubs had all the money and the rest were playing some form of 'catch-up'

Here we are today saying the same thing about the new ESL, so assuming this does fly, where to next?

The difference between this and the PL is that it’s a closed shop with guaranteed involvement for clubs, some of which have by no means earned it. A lot of footballs greatest moments in this country have come from teams defying odds.  Forest consecutively getting promoted, winning the top league and then the European cup 2 times on the trott. Leicester miraculously avoiding relegation then winning the Premier League the following season. This Super League doesn’t allow for any of that. There is nothing any club can do to reach the pinnacle of the sport anymore if this comes to fruition. Clubs like ours can never be at the top table, ever. Premier League status, as difficult as it is to achieve and maintain is still a realistic dream for a lot of clubs. Super League status is not something any clubs outside of this elite group can ever aim for.

On top of that, what’s to stop say the Glazers or FSG deciding they want to have 2 seasons where they just bank the money involved and not invest in players, accepting they’ll finish bottom? There is nothing to stop them doing it because their involvement the next season is guaranteed. You’re heading towards a situation here where clubs are rewarded regardless of success. At least in the PL they have to make the effort to qualify for the CL to get the revenue.

Edited by seanthecanary
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26 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

The SL would love for FIFA/UEFA to ban players from playing in Euros and World Cups. Competitions they have no interest in other than a distraction from their product that could damage their assets. However I don’t think it will come to that as how can a court possibly uphold a decision to ban a human from representing their own country in a national sport. Won’t happen.

I'm reminded of the international ban on cricket players who joined Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket. I can't recall any of the players banned from officially representing their country ever winning a court case against their ban.

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4 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

The problem here is that these clubs think they are football and are the most interesting thing in it. The difference between this and the PL is that it’s a closed shop with guaranteed involvement for clubs, some of which have by no means earned it. A lot of footballs greatest moments in this country have come from teams defying odds.  Forest consecutively getting promoted, winning the top league and then the European cup 2 times on the trott. Leicester miraculously avoiding relegation then winning the Premier League the following season. This Super League doesn’t allow for any of that. There is nothing any club can do to reach the pinnacle of the sport anymore if this comes to fruition. Clubs like ours can never be at the top table, ever. Premier League status, as difficult as it is to achieve and maintain is still a realistic dream for a lot of clubs. Super League status is not something any fans outside of this elite group can ever aim for.

Yes I see and understand all of this.

But the SL is advertised as having 20 teams forming 2 mini leagues of 10, but having a 'super core' of 15 founder members.

What happens in say 10 years where the money that the '20' are getting is not enough? do they kick out the 5 non super core members and have a single league of 15?

Then what, there is not enough money to go round the 15 'super core' members, so a new 'super elite' group set up an new league...... and so it goes round again.

 

And while these super super elite clubs are getting their 'fair share' every other club goes out of business. So where do the new Beckhams et al come from??

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8 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

UK Government could refuse clubs licenses to host games at their stadiums. 

These big 6 have a massive fight on their hands. 

Well they could but do these owners really care where they play. Many don't live in this country. Some probably don't even understand the game. It beggars belief how people seemed to think they really cared about this country, their City or it's "legacy fans". I guess if folk are sooo keen to call other people's money their own they'll believe anything.

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6 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

Yes I see and understand all of this.

But the SL is advertised as having 20 teams forming 2 mini leagues of 10, but having a 'super core' of 15 founder members.

What happens in say 10 years where the money that the '20' are getting is not enough? do they kick out the 5 non super core members and have a single league of 15?

Then what, there is not enough money to go round the 15 'super core' members, so a new 'super elite' group set up an new league...... and so it goes round again.

 

And while these super super elite clubs are getting their 'fair share' every other club goes out of business. So where do the new Beckhams et al come from??

Part of me just thinks let them do what they want and see where it gets them. The majority of fans domestically support clubs outside of those involved. I’m still going to remain more interested in Norwich than any of the clubs in this Super League. I say let them take their ball and go play elsewhere and let the hundreds of European Clubs not involved get on with competitive leagues and cups. I’m quite convinced more people would watch genuine competitions over this sham and that’s where the money will migrate to.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Well they could but do these owners really care where they play. Many don't live in this country. Some probably don't even understand the game. It beggars belief how people seemed to think they really cared about this country, their City or it's "legacy fans". I guess if folk are sooo keen to call other people's money their own they'll believe anything.

That’s a point I made. I don’t think the Glazers or FSG would lose any sleep moving the clubs base out of Manchester and Liverpool respectively if the money would still roll in. When businessmen buy your club to make profit, you stop being a supporter and become a customer. 

Edited by seanthecanary

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Sounds like Citeh and Chelski are having second thoughts already.

Probably the threat of them not being allowed to play their CL semis next week as helped in that.

Whatever happens FIFA and UEFA cannot allow these clubs to dictate the future of the game. If they are in financial disarray then its their onw fault and their own responsibility to sort out. Sell some of their players as we and countless other clubs have had to do.

 

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I understand its a useful hobby horse for people to warn about the dangers of foreign ownership but it does slightly ignore that two of the biggest driving forces in this are the owner of Juventus who was born in Turin and the Chairman of Real Madrod who was born in...Madrid. So having owners and chairman with connection to your local community doesn't ensure you're free of greed and avarice.  

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12 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

That’s a point I made. I don’t think the Glazers or FSG would lose any sleep moving the clubs base out of Manchester and Liverpool respectively if the money would still roll in. When businessmen buy your club to make profit, you stop being a supporter and become a customer. 

I heard Gary Neville claiming they were just custodians of the club and spouting history. Yet I doubt that was made plain to them in any agreement when they bought it. You can't sell someone your car and then dictate what they do with it.

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I heard Gary Neville claiming they were just custodians of the club and spouting history. Yet I doubt that was made plain to them in any agreement when they bought it. You can't sell someone your car and then dictate what they do with it.

Quite. Being “custodians” didn’t stop Wimbledon’s owners moving the club to Milton Keynes and changing the name.

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On 19/04/2021 at 10:18, wcorkcanary said:

Trouble is that its not 'us' they are making this product for, its the hundreds of millions of Indian, Thai,  Chinese.and Arab Nations etc.  'We' are a very small percentage of the Global Market.....effectively powerless.

This is true but these clubs will die without fans in the ground watching domestic fixtures. it will be a soulless, dull experience and will ultimately fail.

I don't like Liverpool or Man U fans generally but they are passionate and militant enough to vote with their feet iver this. 

us "legacy fans" need to stick together. This subscribers in asia, and america and elsewhere are not supporters of these clubs and they should not be destroyed for their benefit. 

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2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

This is true but these clubs will die without fans in the ground watching domestic fixtures. it will be a soulless, dull experience and will ultimately fail.

I don't like Liverpool or Man U fans generally but they are passionate and militant enough to vote with their feet iver this. 

us "legacy fans" need to stick together. This subscribers in asia, and america and elsewhere are not supporters of these clubs and they should not be destroyed for their benefit. 

Unfortunately one thing modern football fans don't do very well is 'stick together' its all far too partisan- see the reaction to £20's plenty at times.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, king canary said:

I understand its a useful hobby horse for people to warn about the dangers of foreign ownership but it does slightly ignore that two of the biggest driving forces in this are the owner of Juventus who was born in Turin and the Chairman of Real Madrod who was born in...Madrid. So having owners and chairman with connection to your local community doesn't ensure you're free of greed and avarice.  

I can't speak for Madrid, but having lived in Italy for over five years, Juventus aren't exactly that rooted in their local community anyway. Their fans come from all over Italy, and there seems to be far more Juventus fans in the province of Lecce than Lecce fans, despite Juventus actually being closer to London than it is to Lecce, to give you an idea of the distance. In Turin, it's said that there are at least as many Torino fans as Juve. 

The Juve fans in the south of Italy probably wouldn't be terribly opposed to this idea as they only watch their team on TV anyway (same as Man Utd fans in London or Liverpool fans Norfolk), but this may all change when they see their team lose more matches they win over the course of a season. It's all well and good being a Juve or Man Utd 'fan' when they're dominating, but when they're not winning any trophies and finishing in mid/lower table, the connection and enthusiasm may wane if there's no emotional connection which only local fans have.

Edited by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

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18 hours ago, Badger said:

Ultimately, I am think that it be sorted by legal opinions. Given the financial muscle of the owners of the "Big 15" you can expect top lawyers on this and if there is any chance that the courts will find against UEFA/ EPL etc, they will not go through with any ban on the teams.

The financial liability arising from a ban that was found against by the courts would surely be too big for the governing bodies to risk? 

EPL is a company. If the other shareholders exclude them (and are entitled to exclude them) then I donlt see what recourse they have. If they breach the rules to the significant commercial detriment of the company/remaining shareholders then I think there would be grounds to exclude them but it won;t happen straight away because excluding them now would no doubt see the EPL worried they will be in breach the current tv deals. They will vote to refuse approval to these teams joining the ESL and then the 6 clubs will have a choice between resigning and walking away or climbing down. In my opinion. 

Government may even amend the law to allow the football authorities to do what they need to do if it were considered anti competitive but actually the ESL appears more anti-competitive to me. 

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