Big clubs possible move could ‘end football as we know it'

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

1 hour ago, MORDENCANARY said:

Bring it on, that's what I say.Let the 'Big Six' p**s off, isolate them from domestic European and competition so all they can do is play each other every five minutes.  

Restructure the domestic game with five national divisions ,invite half a dozen Scottish clubs to spice things up. 

If we're going to invite Scottish clubs in, we have to invite them all or we're as guilty of doing to their leagues what the ESL clubs are doing to ours. 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

5 minutes ago, kick it off said:

This doesn't require a vote.

The Board make the decision here. The Big 6 will put forward the proposal, then it will be rejected by the board and next steps considered. Essentially, I'm no legal expert but I don't see how the big 6 could win legally. They signed up to the Premier League rules, essentially a contract, and they have broken the rules (and thus the contract) in an extremely egregious way and as such, all sanctions should be on the table. Not sure where they feel they are legally exempt from the rules they signed up to, but presumably they must feel they'd win in court.

I guess they are relying on the other 14 clubs to ask that the Premier League does not expel them and that the rules are changed.

[Badger 2,405]

5 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I guess they are relying on the other 14 clubs to ask that the Premier League does not expel them and that the rules are changed.

Ultimately, I am think that it be sorted by legal opinions. Given the financial muscle of the owners of the "Big 15" you can expect top lawyers on this and if there is any chance that the courts will find against UEFA/ EPL etc, they will not go through with any ban on the teams.

The financial liability arising from a ban that was found against by the courts would surely be too big for the governing bodies to risk? 

[SteveN8458 64]

1 hour ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Individual FAs could decide to not pick players in the ESL - I think that is possible, but whether FIFA can dictate who FAs can and cannot pick is another matter - there is no precedent for this and nothing in the rules FIFA has set out that allow for this (or so is my understanding). I don't think saying 'if you want to be eligible you have to move club/country' would stand up to legal scrutiny.  

Is this not what Cuba did with Argos, and others playing over seas?

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Just now, SteveN8458 said:

Is this not what Cuba did with Argos, and others playing over seas?

The National FA did yes, as I said I don't think that would be an issue as the FAs can choose who does and doesn't play. The issue would be when the FA wants to call the player up and FIFA say that player is banned. Whether FIFA have the legal right to tell a national FA who is and isn't allowed to represent their country is untested. 

[Aggy 755]

14 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I guess they are relying on the other 14 clubs to ask that the Premier League does not expel them and that the rules are changed.

Which might well happen. Kick them out and see your sky money for finishing 15th suddenly plummet, or keep them in and hope I the package doesn’t  drop much.

It’s certainly more of an attack on the champions league than domestic football as currently laid out. The issue though is that it effectively means if you do a Leicester and win your domestic title (or you’re from a smaller European nation) you still won’t be able to play the “big boys”. 

Does it pave the way for a three tier European competition? The sticking point will be that these founder clubs apparently can’t get “relegated”. A system something along the lines of the bottom side in the super league gets swapped out for the winner of the champions league might not be the worst idea ever, but that doesn’t appear to be what is being suggested.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Aggy

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

I also see a lot of chatter about the sporting merit and competitiveness of this league...You have to remember that this Super League isn't for us, it isn't for fans of European clubs it's for fans in the US/China/Asia etc who don't really support clubs, they support global superstar players and will tepidly support whatever club their favorite player happens to play for. We talk about how boring it would be watching 8th v 10th in the Super League but global 'fans' won't care, they want to see famous players play each other and the media companies will do their best to promote these meaningless encounters and fair weather fans around the world will lap it all up. These guys didn't watch El Classico for years because it was a clash between these giant clubs, they watched it because to them it was Messi v Ronaldo. This way of thinking is alien to us, but it's how Americans/Asians tend to follow sport whereby they latch onto individuals more than clubs so eventhough this makes no sense to us or people who are club orientated, these billionaire owners are seeing dollar signs

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Just now, Aggy said:

Which might well happen. Kick them out and see your sky money for finishing 15th suddenly plummet, or keep them in and hope it doesn’t drop.

It’s certainly more of an attack on the champions league than domestic football as currently laid out. The issue though is that it effectively means if you do a Leicester and win your domestic title (or you’re from a smaller European nation) you still won’t be able to play the “big boys”. 

Does it pave the way for a three tier European competition? The sticking point will be that these founder clubs apparently can’t get “relegated”. A system something along the lines of the bottom side in the super league gets swapped out for the winner of the champions league might not be the worst idea ever, but that doesn’t appear to be what is being suggested.

I think the other PL members would vote to let the 'big 6' remain. Especially as there are 5 guest spots in the ESL every season and you'd expect the best placed Premier League team to probably be allocated one of those.

[ncfcstar 291]

3 minutes ago, Aggy said:

It’s certainly more of an attack on the champions league than domestic football as currently laid out. The issue though is that it effectively means if you do a Leicester and win your domestic title (or you’re from a smaller European nation) you still won’t be able to play the “big boys”. 

I disagree on this. We're talking about a new league which gifts these six English clubs £300m each, it will have a huge impact on domestic football as 'doing a Leicester' basically becomes impossible unless you can somehow bridge that financial gap.

[Surfer 1,547]

As a Brit in America, "its all about the superstars" is only partly true. The key though to American professional sports is it's a closed shop, no promotion / relegation, and all teams own several levels of "minor league" teams to develop their players. So yes there is a lot of talk about a Brady or Trout, but the real connection is to the Patriots and Angels respectively. And no chance of promotion means the minor league teams are in permanent limbo. 

As for "away fans can't afford to travel abroad every week" that's a non issue, away fans are not needed, the question is whether home fans will come to these games and if TV companies can sell enough pay-per-view tickets or adverts to buy the rights. 

Me, I'm doubtful. Without fans football loses 80% of its interest - unless your team plays pretty football and wins most of the time, then it's tolerable. But the fact is that will not be the case in a so called Super League.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Surfer

[C.I.D 302]

13 minutes ago, Badger said:

Ultimately, I am think that it be sorted by legal opinions. Given the financial muscle of the owners of the "Big 15" you can expect top lawyers on this and if there is any chance that the courts will find against UEFA/ EPL etc, they will not go through with any ban on the teams.

The financial liability arising from a ban that was found against by the courts would surely be too big for the governing bodies to risk? 

Forgive my complete ignorance on legal matters but............exactly which Court of Law would arbitrate and decide on the legality or otherwise of this Super League ? 

[ricardo 7,385]

So a top league with no promotion or relegation.

If only someone had warned us that this was the ultimate goal.🤔

[ncfcstar 291]

3 minutes ago, C.I.D said:

Forgive my complete ignorance on legal matters but............exactly which Court of Law would arbitrate and decide on the legality or otherwise of this Super League ? 

CAS I'd assume - https://www.tas-cas.org/en/index.html

[nutty nigel 7,533]

17 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I also see a lot of chatter about the sporting merit and competitiveness of this league...You have to remember that this Super League isn't for us, it isn't for fans of European clubs it's for fans in the US/China/Asia etc who don't really support clubs, they support global superstar players and will tepidly support whatever club their favorite player happens to play for. We talk about how boring it would be watching 8th v 10th in the Super League but global 'fans' won't care, they want to see famous players play each other and the media companies will do their best to promote these meaningless encounters and fair weather fans around the world will lap it all up. These guys didn't watch El Classico for years because it was a clash between these giant clubs, they watched it because to them it was Messi v Ronaldo. This way of thinking is alien to us, but it's how Americans/Asians tend to follow sport whereby they latch onto individuals more than clubs so eventhough this makes no sense to us or people who are club orientated, these billionaire owners are seeing dollar signs

Good post but the PL isn't really for us if the us is season ticket holders and others who physically go to games. 

The fixtures are timed for tv audience. If your season ticket is in the blankets towards the river end you have to put up with a camera man standing in front of you every time there's an attack at that end. However no doubt it's true that the facilities in the ground are better for the tv money. But all things considered is it right that these season ticket holders pay 2.5 times as much as the tv audience each game?

Ultimately I choose to pay because despite everything I love supporting my team on a match day. However the pandemic has proved I can be replaced by crowd noise. So do I have a future?

Edited April 19, 2021 by nutty nigel

[Aggy 755]

9 minutes ago, ncfcstar said:

I disagree on this. We're talking about a new league which gifts these six English clubs £300m each, it will have a huge impact on domestic football as 'doing a Leicester' basically becomes impossible unless you can somehow bridge that financial gap.

This presumes teams like Leicester win the league all the time currently. Leicester and Blackburn in 95 are the only two sides outside the “top 6” to have ever won a premier league title - 2 out of 29 seasons at the end of this year, and once out of the last 18 seasons. It’s already basically impossible. These clubs already get more from the champions league than Leicester and Burnley and Sheff Utd. But it’s the principle - if you do manage it then why should you not be able to play against the big boys? 

[Badger 2,405]

4 minutes ago, C.I.D said:

Forgive my complete ignorance on legal matters but............exactly which Court of Law would arbitrate and decide on the legality or otherwise of this Super League ? 

I'm  no expert, but I guess that ultimately it could go to the European Court (EU) and the Supreme Court here. My guess is that it wouldn't go that far though if UEFA and the EPL etc thought that there was any chance they could lose because of the massive liabilities they would face - if you kicked the teams out of their domestic leagues and the Champions league this year, it would run into billions - they couldn't afford to lose that.

[Badger 2,405]

5 minutes ago, ncfcstar said:

CAS I'd assume - https://www.tas-cas.org/en/index.html

I don't think that clubs have to accept CAS judgements and can use the normal courts if they choose.

[ncfcstar 291]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

This presumes teams like Leicester win the league all the time currently. Leicester and Blackburn in 95 are the only two sides outside the “top 6” to have ever won a premier league title - 2 out of 29 seasons at the end of this year, and once out of the last 18 seasons. It’s already basically impossible. These clubs already get more from the champions league than Leicester and Burnley and Sheff Utd. But it’s the principle - if you do manage it then why should you not be able to play against the big boys? 

I don't think it presumes that, it presumes that there is some sort of level of competition, whether real or not.  After Leicester won the league then other teams at least felt it could be done, even Sheff Utd's attempts last season (pre lockdown) would have been a boost in that direction. 

If six clubs get further financial rewards which do at that point essentially ring fence the top six spots because the other clubs are at an extreme financial disadvantage, then I don't see how it can not be a direct attack on domestic football.

[king canary 7,605]

26 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

The National FA did yes, as I said I don't think that would be an issue as the FAs can choose who does and doesn't play. The issue would be when the FA wants to call the player up and FIFA say that player is banned. Whether FIFA have the legal right to tell a national FA who is and isn't allowed to represent their country is untested. 

What you'd need is basically Fifa to almost whip nations to say they don't pick them. Whether that would work I'm not sure but I can't imagine many national FA's are fans of this idea.

[king canary 7,605]

1 minute ago, ncfcstar said:

I don't think it presumes that, it presumes that there is some sort of level of competition, whether real or not.  After Leicester won the league then other teams at least felt it could be done, even Sheff Utd's attempts last season (pre lockdown) would have been a boost in that direction. 

If six clubs get further financial rewards which do at that point essentially ring fence the top six spots because the other clubs are at an extreme financial disadvantage, then I don't see how it can not be a direct attack on domestic football.

Money has made football less and less competitive over time and I agree this would likely be the final death knell for the Premier League as a competitive entity. From a purely sporting perspective I'd suggest kicking the big 6 out and rebuilding with less money is easily the better option.

[Crafty Canary 495]

In terms of legalities I would have thought the ‘6’ could give the EPL notice of their intention to terminate their membership. I would imagine that the golden ticket of EPL membership is a seasonal one hence relegated clubs losing their right to the ticket. I would be amazed if the EPL would have any legal grounds for stopping clubs resigning at the end of a season just as an employer cannot stop an employee tesigning. 

[ncfcstar 291]

1 minute ago, Crafty Canary said:

In terms of legalities I would have thought the ‘6’ could give the EPL notice of their intention to terminate their membership. I would imagine that the golden ticket of EPL membership is a seasonal one hence relegated clubs losing their right to the ticket. I would be amazed if the EPL would have any legal grounds for stopping clubs resigning at the end of a season just as an employer cannot stop an employee tesigning. 

They could, but under the proposals they have absolutely no intention of doing that.  They want their cake and to eat it.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Just now, king canary said:

What you'd need is basically Fifa to almost whip nations to say they don't pick them. Whether that would work I'm not sure but I can't imagine many national FA's are fans of this idea.

European FAs are probably mostly against it - but FIFA is global and FAs in Africa, South America and Asia won't care - they will care though if for example they can't call up Messi, Mane, Salah, Dest etc etc. You could then have a weird patchwork of nations ignoring the ESL and those that don't - it would ultimately not last long. Imagine the Spanish or English National team without the ESL players?!?

[HazzaJet 252]

They should be banned from signing players from clubs outside the ESL, but allowed to sell players to them in case a player wants to play for his country (if Harry Kane wants to become England's top goalscorer, he will be leaving Spurs this summer)

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

Do we now have to call it the English Football League truncated pyramid? I hope next season we can reach near the top of the frustrum

Edited April 19, 2021 by Christoph Stiepermann

[C.I.D 302]

12 minutes ago, Badger said:

I'm  no expert, but I guess that ultimately it could go to the European Court (EU) and the Supreme Court here. My guess is that it wouldn't go that far though if UEFA and the EPL etc thought that there was any chance they could lose because of the massive liabilities they would face - if you kicked the teams out of their domestic leagues and the Champions league this year, it would run into billions - they couldn't afford to lose that.

So presumably the member clubs of ESL would have to legally fight on two fronts .........I'm assuming that the English clubs would have to challenge the PL (and possibly EUFA) in the UK Supreme Courts and similarly the Spanish/Italians take their 'grievances' to the EU Courts.

Either way,somebody is going to be lining the pockets of lawyers big-time if things come to a head.

[ricardo 7,385]

Let's be clear about this. The proposals are just an NFL version of football. There's even a Superbowl at the end of the season.

It pretty much spells the end for the national competitions.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

22 minutes ago, ricardo said:

So a top league with no promotion or relegation.

If only someone had warned us that this was the ultimate goal.🤔

What you've said all along is that eventually the PL will become a closed shop. This is not that. This bears no relation to that.

[king canary 7,605]

13 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

European FAs are probably mostly against it - but FIFA is global and FAs in Africa, South America and Asia won't care - they will care though if for example they can't call up Messi, Mane, Salah, Dest etc etc. You could then have a weird patchwork of nations ignoring the ESL and those that don't - it would ultimately not last long. Imagine the Spanish or English National team without the ESL players?!?

That is true- I suppose UEFA at least have the Euro's as a threat but that isn't as prestigious as the World Cup obviously. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

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Edited April 19, 2021 by Christoph Stiepermann