Big clubs possible move could ‘end football as we know it'

[JF 694]

2 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

The Super League has already lodge legal proceedings to stop this ban.

It will be hard to see if the ban can be upheld as it could be seen to be damaging to players ability to work, which is enshrined in most country's law. Are the Argentinian FA going to not call up Messi just because of the ESL? Unlikely.

There doesn’t need to be anything legal in place. A national manager can merely overlook them for contention 

Edited April 19, 2021 by JF

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

8 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

What you've said all along is that eventually the PL will become a closed shop. This is not that. This bears no relation to that.

It is a fast-moving world, and the implications are far from clear, but it seems there are various possible outcomes.

One, that this SL falls flat, or that it was a bargaining ploy to get a better Champions League deal. In either case nothing much changes.

Two, that the SL clubs are allowed to stay in their domestic leagues. Then they will also play in the SL,  and other clubs in the PL will qualify for the Champions League and the Europa League, or their modified successors.

Three, that the SL clubs are kicked out, necessitating a reordering of the domestic pyramids, and in the PL again the clubs will aim to qualify for ther Champions league and the Europa Cup.

Unless I am missing something in none of these scenarios does the PL become a closed shop. There will still be European prizes for the teams that do well and relegation for those that do badly.

[JF 694]

 

[king canary 7,604]

22 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It is a fast-moving world, and the implications are far from clear, but it seems there are various possible outcomes.

One, that this SL falls flat, or that it was a bargaining ploy to get a better Champions League deal. In either case nothing much changes.

Two, that the SL clubs are allowed to stay in their domestic leagues. Then they will also play in the SL,  and other clubs in the PL will qualify for the Champions League and the Europa League, or their modified successors.

Three, that the SL clubs are kicked out, necessitating a reordering of the domestic pyramids, and in the PL again the clubs will aim to qualify for ther Champions league and the Europa Cup.

Unless I am missing something in none of these scenarios does the PL become a closed shop. There will still be European prizes for the teams that do well and relegation for those that do badly.

I'd suggest only if it becomes part of the negotiations in option 1. 

I cant decide option 2 is definitely the worst option though.

[Bonzo 198]

This will go legal particularly if players are excluded from competitions (restraint of trade).  

The question is who controls these clubs? Is it the share holders or the leagues in which these clubs play and their related European and World associations i.e. Eufa & Fifa.  

JP Morgan's bet is that it is the clubs themselves who ultimately decide what they do and that the Leagues and FIFA can go whistle. 

A Premiership without a banned top 5? What will Sky pay for that? 

A World Cup missing all the best European based players? Really? 

This is a naked power grab by those who own these clubs and Gary Neville is quite rightly incensed- but can we really do anything about it?

My bet is that the FA and FIFA acquiesce and allow it. 

Indeed the only hope I see is that the English sides are reported and investigated for acting as a cartel and prosecuted for doing so by the Competition and Markets Authority- but one suspects a lengthy delay before anything is concluded let alone any convictions made if this route is taken. Maybe these clubs would happily pay any fine even if found guilty. 

The Champions league is already a kipper for sure but one has to wonder if there is any appetite to permanently deny the Premiership its top clubs or England's National side many of it's best players if sanctions against these clubs is considered as a way forwards.

Sadly my guess is that there probably is not an appetite for this.

After all those at FIFA and the FA have the same goal as their counterparts at the newly formed  ESL.

That goal is to keep one's nose in the trough. 

The ESL seems to have blindsided us all the FA and FIFA in particular but there is the still unanswered question about the anti competitive aspect in all of this. For fans perhaps this is our only real hope. 

 

 

 

[Mark .Y. 352]

22 hours ago, BigFish said:

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing in favour rather only critiqueing some of the response. PSG and Bayern may not have signed up yet, but they probably will do. If FiFA went for a ban, the new league would be playing at then same time. Financially, the World Cup will be dead in the water.

Aren't all the German clubs 51% owned by the fans............. or am I imagining that ?? If they are, I suspect Bayern won't be signing up

[BigFish 1,986]

Just now, Mark .Y. said:

Aren't all the German clubs 51% owned by the fans............. or am I imagining that ?? If they are, I suspect Bayern won't be signing up

Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund not joining European Super League

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

As far as I can remember, right down to local FAs, you have to be registered with the FA to play for any club that plays in competitions that said FA oversees.

If the FA is true to its current opinions then surely it either does not register players from these clubs or deregisters them.

And on the playing and managerial side, what happens to these players when they are no longer wanted by these super clubs?

What happens about academies, scouting, loans etc? Are we crediting those involved with having covered every base?

[JF 694]

 

[JF 694]

 

[JF 694]

These teams have certainly not read the room. Their actions have now forced the government to look at every aspect of the game. There could be some big changes ahead. The owners of the “greedy 6” look to have massively shot themselves in the foot

[ricardo 7,384]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

What you've said all along is that eventually the PL will become a closed shop. This is not that. This bears no relation to that.

No they just replaced it with another closed shop above it😉

Same thing, different name.

Its the big boys ensuring they stay big boys indefinitely.

Edited April 19, 2021 by ricardo

[C.I.D 302]

15 minutes ago, Bonzo said:

This will go legal particularly if players are excluded from competitions (restraint of trade).  

 

 

 

 

I don't quite get this 'restraint of trade' argument ................if the players are under contract with their clubs to play in whatever 'bread and butter' competition(in this case the Europa Super League) their clubs require them to play in then they're not being 'restrained' at all are they? 

Surely any other additional competitions are entered by their clubs,at their own choosing and without obligation.

[Tumbleweed 106]

The level of anger is such that I am not sure that nothing will transpire. I think the way that this has been done is about the only thing that could trigger drastic action. The 6 have burned their bridges anyway. No longer will they be trusted, many fans will desert them, they will be reviled by all others, non ESL clubs will probably actively seek to control them even more, there may even be new rules on ownership. There could be wage caps and rules on income/overhead ratios.

Nor do I think this is a bargaining chip in negotiation. It has gone too far. JP Morgan would not have ben involved to this extent apparently with finance being committed, proceedings have allegedly already been instituted (presumably injunctions), people have resigned from organisations, and the language has been bold. 

I reckon the ones behind this will lie low, take the flak having acknowledge that a storm would come their way, and gamble that the bodies take too long to decide what to do. They will probably be banking on getting through a sticky period and then once the ESL is launched a "new normal" arising. I believe that their target market is not UK fans, the value they chase is non-European in non football heritage markets. They are creating something completely different away from a fan base mired in  history.

[Ken Hairy 3,771]

The one thing all this has achieved in the short term is proving Leeds fans right, as surely tonight 'we're all Leeds aren't we?' 😏

[Mark .Y. 352]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Good post but the PL isn't really for us if the us is season ticket holders and others who physically go to games. 

The fixtures are timed for tv audience. If your season ticket is in the blankets towards the river end you have to put up with a camera man standing in front of you every time there's an attack at that end. However no doubt it's true that the facilities in the ground are better for the tv money. But all things considered is it right that these season ticket holders pay 2.5 times as much as the tv audience each game?

Ultimately I choose to pay because despite everything I love supporting my team on a match day. However the pandemic has proved I can be replaced by crowd noise. So do I have a future?

While there are dirty bogs out there.................you'll always have a future NN 😉

 

[The Raptor 1,205]

1 hour ago, JF said:

There doesn’t need to be anything legal in place. A national manager can merely overlook them for contention 

Would the majority of England fans back Southgate if he took a stand and did this?  Or more importantly the media. There would still be a very good England squad without big six players. 

[JF 694]

4 minutes ago, The Raptor said:

Would the majority of England fans back Southgate if he took a stand and did this?  Or more importantly the media. There would still be a very good England squad without big six players. 

I think that the strength of outrage from all quarters over this is such that it would have overwhelming support. Incredibly harsh  on the players involved but there has to be a stand against this. 

[HazzaJet 252]

If the teams are only doing it because of fear of financial problems due to relegation from the PL/missing out on Europe, maybe they should think twice about paying such high transfer fees/wages. Think how it feels to be a self funded club like us

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

11 minutes ago, The Raptor said:

Would the majority of England fans back Southgate if he took a stand and did this?  Or more importantly the media. There would still be a very good England squad without big six players. 

This would almost be rewarding the big 6 who don’t want their players to compete in international tournaments over the summer. 

While a long term ban from all international competitions for players might make it harder to recruit and retain players I think it would be best if the players currently at the teams are allowed to compete in the Euros. 

[Peanuts 150]

It could all go horribly wrong for the breakway clubs if the EPL/FA/FIFA etc call their bluff and expel them. They could end up effectively playing exhibition matches for TV audiences in the Far/Middle East with late night kick-offs and rule changes to make the games easier to bet on etc.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

6 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

But how many Asian players are good enough to play at a decent standard?

They are wasting their time. They won't be screening it for nothing and without being colonial, can the prospective viewers afford it?

I hadnt considered the nationality of the Players, that, I imagine will be fluid... as they look to recruit stars.... whatever their nationality. To your second point, , I think you may find that there is plenty of disposable income in the regions I mentioned.  As a busines model id imagine its very attractive, just not to anyone who believes the current football structure is the right one. 

A discussion was had on here a few weeks back about whether it was worth having 'lesser' international teams in qualifying groups for WC, Euros etc. What is proposed by the ESL is the other end of the same shoity stick, but at club level, and instead of the Majority cutting the weaker teams loose, the big boys are disappearing over the horizon , leaving the majority behind.

One single football pyramid is all that is required, no one stays at the top forever, and thats just how it should be. Wait til this elite league starts to fight amongst itself because more people watch Barca v Manure, than Dortmund v spurs, so therefore they should get a bigger share. I despair at the greed.

 

 

 

 

[C.I.D 302]

3 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

It could all go horribly wrong for the breakway clubs if the EPL/FA/FIFA etc call their bluff and expel them. They could end up effectively playing exhibition matches for TV audiences in the Far/Middle East with late night kick-offs and rule changes to make the games easier to bet on etc.

 

Sadly,I don't have 100% confidence that such fine,principled guardians of the beautiful game will have the balls or backbone to do the right thing and kick these cynical,greedy barstewards out 😞

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

12 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

It could all go horribly wrong for the breakway clubs if the EPL/FA/FIFA etc call their bluff and expel them. They could end up effectively playing exhibition matches for TV audiences in the Far/Middle East with late night kick-offs and rule changes to make the games easier to bet on etc.

 

We could end up with ESL being the illegitemate love child of Barnums Circus and the Harlem Globe Trotters. What a prospect.

[JF 694]

Having seen Dowdens speech in the commons and the universal support across all parties it looks as though these clubs have a hell of a fight on their hands. He’s says they will use all options including withdrawing support for these clubs by removing licences for matches and policing 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,818]

17 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

This would almost be rewarding the big 6 who don’t want their players to compete in international tournaments over the summer. 

While a long term ban from all international competitions for players might make it harder to recruit and retain players I think it would be best if the players currently at the teams are allowed to compete in the Euros. 

Could we see a situation where the Bundesliga, which has retained all its clubs, become football's dominant force as it can attract the world's top players who still wish to play international football and subsequently attract worldwide TV investment to challenge the ESL?

[Aggy 755]

27 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

This would almost be rewarding the big 6 who don’t want their players to compete in international tournaments over the summer. 

While a long term ban from all international competitions for players might make it harder to recruit and retain players I think it would be best if the players currently at the teams are allowed to compete in the Euros. 

The players currently there have hardly done much wrong - they didn’t make the decision and shouldn’t have to breach a contract (and open themselves up to damages/compo claims) for doing something they were able to do before the creation of a super league (although potentially some form of wrongful / constructive dismissal type claim? Not sure).

Moving forward, you could see something almost like a different “code” - rugby league and union style. “Super league” players just aren’t allowed to play in UEFA/FIfA competitions unless they’re playing in UEFA/FIFA domestic competitions . They can switch back to normal sides later but that’s then up to them.

[Beetley Yellow 57]

13 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Could we see a situation where the Bundesliga, which has retained all its clubs, become football's dominant force as it can attract the world's top players who still wish to play international football and subsequently attract worldwide TV investment to challenge the ESL?

I’d love to see that happen, or at least the Bundesliga flourish by avoiding the ESL entirely. The Germans have been going about it right (IMO) for years..., fan ownership of clubs, reasonable ticket prices, adopting safe standing etc. Plus they seem to have an uncanny knack of producing very competitive national sides at every tournament too. No doubt some naysayers will be along pointing at Bayern Munich’s domination of the league, but I get the impression football is still ‘very much for the fans’ over there.  

Edited April 19, 2021 by Beetley Yellow

[Yellow Fever 3,771]

9 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

We could end up with ESL being the illegitemate love child of Barnums Circus and the Harlem Globe Trotters. What a prospect.

I had exactly the same thought.

Indeed - I'm tempted now to force them out - No Champions League for them this summer, no EPL next season, no FA or League cup.  Just their meaningless exhibition games against each other chasing a plastic trophy. Yes follow the money leave them!

I do fell sorry for the true fans of these clubs who expressed to a person outrage at what is happening.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

46 minutes ago, ricardo said:

No they just replaced it with another closed shop above it😉

Same thing, different name.

Its the big boys ensuring they stay big boys indefinitely.

Not true. What they are trying to do is replace the Champions League, which is not part of the English football pyramid and has always had a semi-closed shop element to it.

Despite your frequent claims that the PL will become a closed shop if anything this development makes that less likely. If these top clubs get their way with a money-spinning closed-shop Euro-cup competition then there is less need for them to seal off the PL.