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Uncle Fred

Ownership - it’s time for the debate

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I’ve just read through the accounts again and GMF is right, as the accounts do state that no decision had been made as to whether the dividend would be paid due to Covid uncertainties.

I hadn’t realised that Delia and MWJ held 53% of the ordinary shares (327,109 of 616,913 issued) and whilst that does give them control I had assumed their interest was much larger than this. The accounts show Michael Foulger holds 98,200 and the other directors around 404 ordinary shares between them. To save me going to Companies House does anyone know who owns the remaining 191,200 ordinary shares?

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Permanent position in PL requires replacing the business model.

Why?

Because current model is dependent on availability of 1st team positions to give the young lads an honest chance, and that isn't sustainable for a PL team.

Would you bench a player worth £4M for a few games to give someone like Cantwell or Lewis a chance? Yes. That is Norwich's business model.

Would you bench a £40M player? No.

Only TV money quaranteed in PL. That doesn't sustain top clubs.

We'd need merch, big sponsors, which means expanding fanbase by an order of magnitude. Could NCFC fill a 40k+ stadium week in week out? I don't know.

To go for shortcuts here would mean becoming dependent on a hobbyist billionaire who probably has participated in a genocide or whose finances are wholly dependant on their chumminess with governments facing high probability of sanctions - possibly because of a genocide.

Just no. Build up to 35-40k stadium and expand fanbase organically step by step. Accept yo-yoing as healthy functioning of the club. It is respectable. It's very entertaining too!

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10 hours ago, Hansterbubble said:

Were they not paid then GMF? I couldn’t see anything in the accounts to say it was being deferred, and the cash flow statement shows previous years dividends were paid, so I assumed they either were paid or would be paid on the dividend date. I didn’t check further as either way it’s small beer, which essentially was my point.
 

I think you are confusing ownership and control, or at least thinking only of Delia and MWJs as the owners as they have the controlling interest. I see how you get to that, but it’s not quite right. The shareholders are the owners of the company, the different share classes mean holders have different rights, in terms of return, repayment in a winding up and voting at general meetings. It looks as if the “A” and “B” preference shares contain no voting right so holders can exert no direct control over the club. The ordinary shares will have voting rights providing the holders with control over the company. 

The point I was trying to make previously related specifically to the context of your comment, “but little else in the way of return to the owners” is that D&M and MF between them own just over half the preference shares, but there's over 1,900 other preference share holders who own the remaining 48% of the preference shares.

Yes, it’s small beer and, yes, I’m aware that preference shares have no voting rights either, together with the distinction between ownership and control.

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On 08/04/2021 at 08:36, Uncle Fred said:

Credit to Delia she has once again got us back into the premier league.

However we continue not to have a pot to p  in so again it’s going to be yet another miserable season of getting stuffed most weekends and having the usual relegation battle.

now surely is the time for her to sell up get some new investment into the club and help us move forward.

this is as far as Delia’s ownership can take us but I would love us to be challenging for a top 6 finish in the premier league.

so folks I put forward the motion of Delia out stinking rich Chinese Billionaire in 

 

This is fantasy. We are a fantastically run club, playing wonderful football with a self sustaining model. You may want to be a rich person’s play thing but the odds against are unique. Outside the megaclubs, Leicester are the only team who regularly challenge the top 6, so you would have to be ridiculously lucky. Alternatively we could be one of any number of serial bores with owners who buy and sell them at will. Not for me.

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10 hours ago, Hansterbubble said:

I’ve just read through the accounts again and GMF is right, as the accounts do state that no decision had been made as to whether the dividend would be paid due to Covid uncertainties.

I hadn’t realised that Delia and MWJ held 53% of the ordinary shares (327,109 of 616,913 issued) and whilst that does give them control I had assumed their interest was much larger than this. The accounts show Michael Foulger holds 98,200 and the other directors around 404 ordinary shares between them. To save me going to Companies House does anyone know who owns the remaining 191,200 ordinary shares?

The remaining 31% of shares are held by approximately 6,900 shareholders, with over 55% of them holding 4 shares or less. And the 55% of shareholders own just over 2.5% of the shares! 

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Thanks GMF. That’s quite a diversified base, presumably with a lot of fans holding small interests which is interesting. 

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20 minutes ago, GMF said:

The point I was trying to make previously related specifically to the context of your comment, “but little else in the way of return to the owners” is that D&M and MF between them own just over half the preference shares, but there's over 1,900 other preference share holders who own the remaining 48% of the preference shares.

Yes, it’s small beer and, yes, I’m aware that preference shares have no voting rights either, together with the distinction between ownership and control.

Ok, understood. I suppose my context was about investors wanting a return, and our investors not really taking a return, rather than specifically just about Delia and MJW but as I’ve said before I see how you get there.

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32 minutes ago, Hansterbubble said:

Thanks GMF. That’s quite a diversified base, presumably with a lot of fans holding small interests which is interesting. 

The largest non-director shareholder (third largest overall) is the shares belonging to the family of the late Jimmy Jones, with just over 23,000 shares - that’s approximately 3.75% of the total shares.

This highlights how difficult it is for someone to acquire a significant, but still a minority number of shares.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Hansterbubble said:

I’ve just read through the accounts again and GMF is right, as the accounts do state that no decision had been made as to whether the dividend would be paid due to Covid uncertainties.

I hadn’t realised that Delia and MWJ held 53% of the ordinary shares (327,109 of 616,913 issued) and whilst that does give them control I had assumed their interest was much larger than this. The accounts show Michael Foulger holds 98,200 and the other directors around 404 ordinary shares between them. To save me going to Companies House does anyone know who owns the remaining 191,200 ordinary shares?

There is a 752 page listing available on a PDF at Companies House showing all Preference A Preference B and ordinary shareholders.It is labour intensive reading and you would need a fair amount of time to scan through it. There are a substantial number of share holders with a holding of a few thousand shares including the likes of RG Carter Builders and Archant. The Original Norwich City Trust formed in the late 50's hold in excess of 10,000 shares and as GMF has stated the Jones family, owners of Gt Yarmouth Pleasure Beach hold 23,000.

Edited by TIL 1010

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GMF said:

The remaining 31% of shares are held by approximately 6,900 shareholders, with over 55% of them holding 4 shares or less. And the 55% of shareholders own just over 2.5% of the shares! 

I am one.  Literally I bought some a few years ago.

For what it is worth I think our ownership is spot on.  When I bought the shares we were in financial trouble, we now have an interesting team who give players opportunities, and we are not held to ransom by organisations, players, or owners who are driven by profit or other selfish reasons.  Personally I would not change the model, the idea of risking all the club has achieved to become established in a league where we loss most of our games with expensive players who have no connection with the club, and if we have a bad season could risk our entire existence sounds bonkers. If we become established by developing the players ourselves and then seeing those young players fighting to stay in the league that excites me - I enjoyed last season until the return post Covid where we seemed to have lost our belief.  This season has been a blast.  Amazing owners, and when they stop we will be incredibly lucky to have anyone who does better.

Edited by Newtopia

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