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Uncle Fred

Ownership - it’s time for the debate

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5 hours ago, Petriix said:

Here's an idea: if you want to support a club owned by billionaires who pay ludicrous transfer fees and wages, why don't you bore off and support Man City (or just about any established Premier League club).

I'm immensely proud to support a self-sufficient club who buck the trend. I'd be pretty devastated if we started spaffing money up the wall when we've worked so hard to recover from the last time we tried that.

We're the envy of most clubs outside the Premier League and there are a fair few Championship clubs with far richer owners who would gladly trade places with us. We're arguably one of the best run clubs in the country. I can't fathom why some people don't understand or appreciate that.

Wow you are spot on i couldn't agree more. I wouldn't want us to waste millions on players fees and wages to be left disappointed and say why did we sign so and so and wish we kept someone... we are the envy of many teams. Top 26 is a decent position to be in. I think anyone would've taken that after farkes first season in charge. 

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I am no fan of Delia we have on many occasions under Delia's tutellage wasted monies from previous visits to the PL.  I don't believe she has invested her own money in the club until initial investment was recouped after an earlier PL visit.  However I cannot see a benevolent owner like Leicester's or Man City coming along new owners will see City as a financial investment which is inadvisable as football is a difficult industry as a sound investment.  Self sustaining for us is ok provided we get the PL dividend every couple of years but if we don't get promoted for say 5 years the model will see us in serious financial trouble.

In conclusion yes would like investment but not from a Vincent Tan figure a Sheik Mansoor would be welcomed.  Happy with top 26 yoyo existence regret to see it as short term with many features of current personnel associated with success leaving soon enough. Webber, Farke, Emi, Aarons, Todd will leave and unless replaced on the cheap the yoyo game will be up.

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What a great thread ... you can clearly see how deeply so many of us have clawed over this 'Big Question' in our minds!

For what it's worth I love the philosophy we have, it suits us perfectly.

I'm proud of our little experiment!

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16 minutes ago, Felixfan said:

 

I love the top 26 aspiration but do worry about the end of the Delia era but I an sure any continuity plan will be built in to her successor, even if we become a fan owned club where we all have a stake.

 

We are a fan owned club Dave because we are told time and again that Delia & MWJ are fans not forgetting the 6,000 shareholders. There are other shares available to buy for those that wish to do plus that parcel of unissued shares sitting there should the current board release them onto the market.

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6 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

Keep it how it is. Say we aim and spend like a top 26 club and that's what we are. Trouble is, players that are good enough for that get bored and will move on, and it's a tough gig to keep replacing them. Same with the dof and manager. And let's be fair, not every side bounces back.

But that IS the business model. It relies on the fact that players move on. And hence we recoup a big profit and reinvest that in new players. If done well players will want to come to Norwich because it accelerates their career and we won't hold them back when the big opportunity comes for them. Have we just hit a purple patch when we go Maddison -> Buendia  or Lewis -> Mumba or Godfrey -> Omobamidele? and then the squad upgrades  Trybul -> Skipp, Steipermann -> Dowell, or do we actually know what we are doing? 

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What always worries me is if the EPL became a franchise system as per the US  ( Yuk ) - or we had as oft discussed a top European club breakaway league.

That's why we need to be in the EPL NOW to keep a foot in such a door. 

Edited by Yellow Fever

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46 minutes ago, Surfer said:

But that IS the business model. It relies on the fact that players move on. And hence we recoup a big profit and reinvest that in new players. If done well players will want to come to Norwich because it accelerates their career and we won't hold them back when the big opportunity comes for them. Have we just hit a purple patch when we go Maddison -> Buendia  or Lewis -> Mumba or Godfrey -> Omobamidele? and then the squad upgrades  Trybul -> Skipp, Steipermann -> Dowell, or do we actually know what we are doing? 

Well It hards for me to deny how well it has worked so far and long may it, but does it go to pot if we loose certain scouts etc or the next class of farkes fledgings don't turn out to be what we expect. 

I'm not crisitising just pointing out something

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5 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

The chance to gamble is now. In reality despite COVID we are in a good position financially with player sales. We have an ambitious manager and Stuart Webber at the helm, so we need to push on whilst we still have these two available to us.

I'm not entirely sure what you think a 'gamble' looks like, what the stakes are or what exactly you think we stand to win. Given that we genuinely reinvest every penny of revenue back into the club (no one is extracting any profit although the occasional loan might get repaid), are you really suggesting borrowing say £100M to sign a handful of players?

I'm struggling to imagine who we might sign given that half our current first team would command fees in excess of £20M each. What kind of crazy wages would be required to attract the kind of players you're imagining? What would that do to the dressing room? And, more importantly, how would we survive financially if we got relegated anyway?

People throw around the word 'ambition' with no understanding of the financial reality. I'd argue that we're extremely ambitious and extremely successful. I can't think of another club who've generated anything close to the value we've added to our squad by giving young players the opportunity to develop.

If you crave Premier League mid-table obscurity over the hugely entertaining rollercoaster of our recent past then I reiterate that there are plenty of other clubs more suited to your 'support'.

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2 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

You need to refer to a different book, 10 years is a little on the extreme side of things. 3/4 seasons I would say it would take to become an established premier league outfit. Many of us may quibble over the teams being mentioned and would never want to be stuck in that void of never challenging for anything other than a mid table finish, however its down to us to challenge that. 

Established to me means they are unlikely to be relegated, like the big 6 and Everton. If you think being in the PL for 3 years means a team is established then I don't know what book you're using, but it's not a dictionary. Should I list all the teams who have been in the PL for more than 3 years and no longer are?

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Pound for pound we are the most successful club in the country. We have just battered a team that left neutrals drooling over our style of play. We have a manager who commands respect right across the industry. We have a category 1 academy churning out future talent. We have a scouting setup unearthing raw diamonds that others have missed. We have a sustainable model that has carriedus through a pandemic. We have owners who love the club and it's fans. We sit atop the Championship by a country mile earning plaudits from defeated teams as we return to the Premiership 

These are the best of times. 

As the old song goes - you don't know what you've got til it's gone. 

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2 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

Well It hards for me to deny how well it has worked so far and long may it, but does it go to pot if we loose certain scouts etc or the next class of farkes fledgings don't turn out to be what we expect. 

I'm not crisitising just pointing out something

So *if* things go badly, it will be sh1t? Thanks for that. 😉

Surely the point is that from a position of disadvantage, we are about to *again* join the pinnacle of the English football game. That makes me far more proud of my club than if a "stinking rich Chinese billionaire" had thrown money at a load of journeymen.

Edited by Nuff Said
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6 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

Nice over reaction there. Let me enlighten you as you have failed to detail any teams other than Leicester (for some unknown reason). West Ham, Crystal Palace, Burnley, Southampton and Newcastle to name a few now established team in the Premiership. 

Nuff Said.

There are not many things in football worse than supporting West Ham, Crystal Palace, Burnley, Southampton and Newcastle. 

Imagine what it must be like hoping that you càn be better than the three recently promoted teams in a dreary annual battle against relegation. What a miserable outlook when compared to a season like we are having. When was the last time neutrals drooled over Burnley?

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6 hours ago, horsefly said:

Spot on Petriix!

Remember that lot down the road waving their notes in the air, joyous at the news of their new billionaire owner? That went well didn't it? And the same goes for any number of "great" clubs languishing in the lower leagues having been taken over by wealthy asset-stripping dilettantes promising success but delivering debt and failure.

The financial state of English football clubs has long been precarious, and post covid will be tipping into calamatous. Norwich City's "self-funding" model is the one shining light in this increasingly murky world. It is a model that is completely transparent, and guarantees our future survival; something I value far more than a reckless gamble on foreign money that is extremely unlikely to pay off. Again, compare that lot down the road; they have just announced new owners, but none of their fans have a clue about who their new owners really are, or what their real intentions are. It may go well for them, equally (more likely) it may go very badly. Why would any true fan want to take such a risk with the very survival of their club. 

Sadly, the near future suggests that many clubs will go bust unless they are bailed out by their bigger elite brothers (I wouldn't hold my breath pending that possibility). Norwich City's self-funding model provides the ONLY genuine prospect for a football club to ensure its long-term future remains within its own control, rather than be subject to the whim of some wealthy chancer. We should praise Delia to the the heavens for putting the club's survival above any temptation to make multi-millions selling off to one of those chancers. 

If your only interest in football is winning at all costs then follow Petriix's advice and change your allegiance to Man City or Liverpool. Me, I will be sticking to my local club that I have supported ever since I became conscious of its existence, just like millions of fans up and down the country who support their special team often with not the slightest prospect of any glory whatsoever. I very much doubt I shall ever see my club get close to lifting the premier league title (So much has irrevocably changed since '92-'93), but boy am I happy and proud to be supporting a team that does things the right way, and brings us seasons like the one we are currently experiencing. 

Why no mention of the £40m in parachute payments we received? 

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1 minute ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Why no mention of the £40m in parachute payments we received? 

Do please say why you think it's important to mention this. I suppose once we've calculated the losses accrued due to the pandemic there might be enough left over to treat each season ticket holder to a packet of crisps, but i seriously doubt it will enable us to offer Aguero a contract

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6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Do please say why you think it's important to mention this. I suppose once we've calculated the losses accrued due to the pandemic there might be enough left over to treat each season ticket holder to a packet of crisps, but i seriously doubt it will enable us to offer Aguero a contract

Talking of how amazingly well run and debt free we are and we have been only one of 3 teams to receive £40m in payments this season. 
I like our current model. We will never be an established premiership team under this ownership.

But to come on here and gloat like that is absurd and it isn’t a level playing field in the same league.

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1 minute ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Talking of how amazingly well run and debt free we are and we have been only one of 3 teams to receive £40m in payments this season. 
I like our current model. We will never be an established premiership team under this ownership.

But to come on here and gloat like that is absurd and it isn’t a level playing field in the same league.

And how are those other two teams doing on the financial front?

Regarding your claim that "we will never be an established premiership [sic] team under this ownership" I have to admit I don't posses the powers of prescience that you must have to know that. However I both like our current model and remain hopeful that it will enable us to build up the resources needed to become an established team over time. We certainly differ in that I would prefer to attempt that approach than gamble on the goodwill of some putative billionaire.

I'm afraid I don't understand your final sentence.

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6 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Ought to add - 

What Norwich need to do if they want to become an established EPL club irrespective of ownership 'charity' is create a GLOBAL brand - same as Man U and Chelsea etc. They make more from marketing than kicking a football around! They in principal can be profitable large businesses.

The question is how do we do it. The colours help - instantly recognisable and also being a 1 club city. But Norwich is unlikely to ever have the global awareness as place / city as say Manchester in China.

It is highly unlikely that we could create a global brand. Cardiff are unknown in Malaysia. In Thailand, where UK football is big, they still follow either Man U or Liverpool despite Leicester winning the League. 

You need too, top players of the calibre of Ronaldo or Beckham in order to create a global brand. 

Edited by Rock The Boat

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Everything in the Canary world right now for me is the best it's ever been.

I cannot think of better times when ownership, management, team performance and national interest has been so aligned. We are richer in assets than I've ever known. We develop and sell youngsters for massive money and have done for the last few years. And I've been a supporter for well over 50 years.

It doesn't get any better.

Are we at our highest point, our zenith? Possibly not quite yet. We have at least one more year of Farke and Webber (hopefully) so there is more to come.

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4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Everything in the Canary world right now for me is the best it's ever been.

I cannot think of better times when ownership, management, team performance and national interest has been so aligned. We are richer in assets than I've ever known. We develop and sell youngsters for massive money and have done for the last few years. And I've been a supporter for well over 50 years.

It doesn't get any better.

Are we at our highest point, our zenith? Possibly not quite yet. We have at least one more year of Farke and Webber (hopefully) so there is more to come.

Try the late 80s and early 90s. Three top five finishes, Europe and a couple of semis in the F.A cup.
Don’t get me wrong this is a great season but on par with the above mentioned? Don’t think so. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Try the late 80s and early 90s. Three top five finishes, Europe and a couple of semis in the F.A cup.
Don’t get me wrong this is a great season but on par with the above mentioned? Don’t think so. 

 

Agreed - I still recall the EPL table with the run in upon us - and well we were top (or thereabouts) and had been for most of the season until was it Wimbledon of all places that it fell apart. Not quite enough left in the tank to get us there. The stuff that dreams are made off.

That said - with Farke I still dream of such days again and who's to say otherwise.

Edited by Yellow Fever

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Nearly as long ago as binner history. Sew a couple of stars on yer shirt...

Edited by nutty nigel
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7 hours ago, Uncle Fred said:

I think this comes down to are you happy being a yo yo club or want to be a permanent fixture in the premier league. My view is there is zero chance of long term membership of the premier league  happening under the current model 

I am not thinking the short term which we can all agree has been a fabulous season but looking long term 

Not convinced there. In fact, I'll give you a couple of prime European examples of clubs who punched miles above their weight for a long time on similar models.

Auxerre under Guy Roux, and Freiburg under Volker Finke.

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9 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Nearly as long ago as binner history. Sew a couple of stars on yer shirt...

Binner history was largely ancient history even then although they were still in the PL!

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4 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Binner history was largely ancient history even then although they were still in the PL!

Been that long ago that they're probably not stars any more, but black holes!

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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

And how are those other two teams doing on the financial front?

Regarding your claim that "we will never be an established premiership [sic] team under this ownership" I have to admit I don't posses the powers of prescience that you must have to know that. However I both like our current model and remain hopeful that it will enable us to build up the resources needed to become an established team over time. We certainly differ in that I would prefer to attempt that approach than gamble on the goodwill of some putative billionaire.

I'm afraid I don't understand your final sentence.

It doesn’t need “prescience” to see the other outcomes of our premier league journeys under this stewardship. 
We do get goodwill payments, each time we are in the championship. Sky provide them. Hence my comments about comparing us to other clubs through the pandemic. 
I am not privy to Bournemouth’s and Watford’s accounts, so cannot help you on that front. But like us, they rejected big bids for their stars-Sarr and Brooks.

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22 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Binner history was largely ancient history even then although they were still in the PL!

You need a carbon 14 test to date Binner history.

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8 hours ago, Uncle Fred said:

I think this comes down to are you happy being a yo yo club or want to be a permanent fixture in the premier league. My view is there is zero chance of long term membership of the premier league  happening under the current model 

I am not thinking the short term which we can all agree has been a fabulous season but looking long term 

It's not a simple choice between being a yo-yo club or establishing ourselves in the prem. The problem with us spending £50-60m is that we may still go down, have to then sell our best players and stagnate in the championship.

Id argue our model is the most sensible and sustainable. We will spend more money, but we will be creative and sensible and will not risk the future of the club, which I applaud.

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