breaking - binners sold

[dylanisabaddog 4,867]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

urbin myth, that their accounts disprove

I'm sure we've had this discussion before. ITFC owes Evans around £100m. Of that amount around £30m relates to the Aviva loan acquired by Evans. The other £70m relates to unpaid interest on the £30m loan and funds introduced as additional loans by Evans.

Evans stopped charging interest around 5 years ago but since then has carried on making further loans of around £5m a year. He purchased the training ground for open market value agreed by HMRC in order to reduce the debt which has also been reduced by netting off some player sales, particularly Mings. But as things stood before he purchased the club, Evans is around £75m worse off than he would have been if he hadn't bought it. That is represented by unpaid interest on loan finance and of course the loans.

Evans is undoubtedly an extremely dubious individual but to suggest it is an urban myth that he has been lending ITFC money is complete nonsense. If you have documentary evidence to prove otherwise please share.

[Bill 1,788]

6 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

but to suggest it is an urban myth that he has been lending ITFC money is complete nonsense. If you have documentary evidence to prove otherwise please share.

I never said that

If you have evidence to prove otherwise please share.

[king canary 7,578]

14 minutes ago, kirku said:

In the spirit of fag packet lunch break maths...

£150m to get to the PL

£100m to stabilise

This is why I can't make it stack

Same for me.

I don't think it will cost that much to get to the Premier League but it will cost enough that I don't think just one season in the Premier League will be enough for them to make enough of a profit even if they barely spend a thing.  

[Bill 1,788]

it's probably no more than player trading coupled with some dodgy  offsetting of tax losses against debt

hence the retaining the debt

[ricardo 7,345]

The nearest they'll get to the Premier League will be a ride round the City ring road on a day trip to Cromer.

[kirku 1,332]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

Same for me.

I don't think it will cost that much to get to the Premier League but it will cost enough that I don't think just one season in the Premier League will be enough for them to make enough of a profit even if they barely spend a thing.  

Midtable L1 team with a brand new coaching setup with no high level pedigree?

How much would a 20 goal Championship striker cost, all in (transfer fees, agents fees, wages)? Maybe £30m and £1.5m-2m a year in wages?

£150m might be conservative! They've not got one player who would be in a promotion-chasing Championship side..

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

Brett Johnson: "We are humbled and excited. Ipswich Town are one of the finest clubs in the history of English football. "The first priority is promotion to the Championship. The management team will be given additional funds to strengthen the playing squad." #itfc

 

I bet his pr guy said “ mention their history, they’ll love it “

[king canary 7,578]

Just now, kirku said:

Midtable L1 team with a brand new coaching setup with no high level pedigree?

How much would a 20 goal Championship striker cost, all in (transfer fees, agents fees, wages)? Maybe £30m and £1.5m-2m a year in wages?

£150m might be conservative! They've not got one player who would be in a promotion-chasing Championship side..

Well we're proof that you don't have to spend £30m on a proven striker- we found one for free. So I imagine they are going to be looking to be 'smarter than the rest' in their recruitment as we have- maybe looking to be similar to Brentford in buying low, selling high while looking to go up. 

[Bill 1,788]

4 minutes ago, kirku said:

Midtable L1 team with a brand new coaching setup with no high level pedigree?

How much would a 20 goal Championship striker cost, all in (transfer fees, agents fees, wages)? Maybe £30m and £1.5m-2m a year in wages?

£150m might be conservative! They've not got one player who is in a promotion-chasing L1 side.

sorted

[chicken 2,604]

I think the most immediate concern must be tax dodging. It's popular for wealthy businessmen and investment firms to invest in a slightly iffy 'project' for the sole purpose of writing off tax. If they are playing around with enough money, throwing half a million here and there at something like a sports club, means they might be able to pay less tax and therefore still be up financially.

The bonus being that if the club somehow manages to do well and they can make the club a more attractive and attract better sponsorships etc, then down the line, it could make them money.

The key thing here is, if they want it to. If it is simply a tax dodging project then they won't really care on the success unless they think they can make millions on it and turn it into a proper investment project. At this point though, the way to do that at the moment would be selling players. It's more lucrative than promotion in many ways. If you sell a player for £30mill in the championship, you are looking for the up and coming next version and to spend less on a fee and on wages. The wages are less the lower you go.

The premier league is a minefield. You might sell a player for £35million, but then you'd need to replace them. Wages wise, it's expensive. Transfer fee wise you can probably double what you'd pay for the same player in the championship in some cases, just because you are premier league.

Worse case scenario is that they have a bunch of other investments they think potentially could make more money. They use ITFC to transfer all of the debt into and then let it go bust. Write the debt off, start again from scratch.

[Badger 2,405]

The Brett Johnson link to Ipswich is explained in the following article in the EADT. Johnson was 

"At the time of becoming co-chairman and president of Phoenix Rising in 2015 – then known as Arizona United – his first significant appointment was to hire former Ipswich star Frank Yallop as manager."

There does seem to be some football experience behind the consortium that will manage the club:

"...he is also a director of Danish 1st Division side FC Helsingor as of 2019, following a takeover deal with fellow US investors which include Swansea City minority investor Jordan Gardner."

Gamechanger 20 was set up last year in July. The Press release seems to imply that the Pension Fund has taken most of it over - I suspect that there may be some profit in the sale for its directors?

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/who-is-ipswich-town-rumoured-bidder-brett-johnson-7793920

I'm sure Kieran Maguire will comment on it soon.

[Bill 1,788]

At the moment the comments seem to be where is the interest to pay the investment going to come from.

Funds are not going to simply be handed over to help fulfil the dreams of a bunch of dimwitted farmhands

Selling extra ST's and merchandise is not going to meet these payments, neither will promotion to the Championship wither

And where dies financial fair play come into things ?

[Essjayess 307]

3 hours ago, TomTheBlue said:

So called 'binner' here. It does seem slightly dodgy, admittedly! However, as someone said above, this is a risk we have to take. 

The past 14 years have been so abymsal.

Brave of you to come on here Tom, but glad you have done. The last sentence of yours sums things up well, for so long a time now City have had the bragging rights over Town, so much so that Town fans have to revert  back to their achievements of a few decades  previously to remind them that yes, once, they lauded it over the Canaries.

I to am a fan that misses the derby days so in that respect i do  wish for at the very least  our closest neighbours and traditional rivals to see  better times than whats been seen these past few years,  tribalism is a big part of English football and it takes two to tango to see that tribalism at its best.

This new purchase of ITFC does seem a big gamble, but then again, apart from the  top 5 or 6 Prem clubs every season is a gamble for us all. Sad that the takeover moves ownership  over to the other side of the big pond but these days english clubs owned by overseas  guys or corporations is almost standard, making City's model ever more unique.

So yea....good luck to Town...they're going to need lots of that...but of course never at the expense of lauding it over us.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

I had always wanted to take the club myself to the Premier League and sadly, for too short a window, at one time this had seemed possible. 

From Marcus Evans' statement on the deal. 

Your dreams were crushed in the play-offs by a far superior team Marcus. Sorry/not sorry at all. 

[WD40 720]

In narrative terms this could be an interesting inflection point we all look back on. Yesterday evening - we’re flying high, taking a team apart,  and putting one hand on the first division trophy for another season in the prem. And at the same time the binners are at one of many very low ebbs and couldn’t get past the worst team in League 1 the other day. This morning -  they get news of the takeover completion and who knows what.

In 12 months time, we could be looking at another crushing prem season and extend our record of relegations and the binners making their way up the football league again. Or we finally manage to sustain a premier league stay and nothing changes down the road 🙂. I’m expecting the latter! 

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Well we're proof that you don't have to spend £30m on a proven striker- we found one for free. So I imagine they are going to be looking to be 'smarter than the rest' in their recruitment as we have- maybe looking to be similar to Brentford in buying low, selling high while looking to go up. 

We did find one for free, but that's by far the exception rather than the rule. We also had a significantly better squad and set-up than they had.

I agree with your general point but I'm not so sure that this approach will bear fruit quickly enough for their investors - that's the crux of it.

Especially given they're starting off from a position of being "stupider than the rest"!

[Indy 3,283]

4 hours ago, FenwayFrank said:

A club being owned by a pension fund isn’t completely uncommon in the US apparently 

The last club I remember being owned by a pension fund owner was Robert Maxwell at Oxford! That ended well!

I can’t see how a pension fund would be allowed to run up debt and fund a 6 million shortfall each year, as Evans did! 

[Indy 3,283]

They will be up against more funded clubs next season if they fail to escape, Oxford are finally looking to get the billionaires from Thailand done, which will see them pretty much on the path to buying back the ground from Kassam who screwed the club over during his tenure. League one next year won’t be a walk in the park.

[Bill 1,788]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

The last club I remember being owned by a pension fund owner was Robert Maxwell at Oxford! That ended well!

I can’t see how a pension fund would be allowed to run up debt and fund a 6 million shortfall each year, as Evans did! 

not true

[Uncle Fred 526]

3 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Come here to wave money at us again?😉

Hardly they have sold their club for the valuation of Max Aaron’s! 

[Bill 1,788]

5 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

Hardly they have sold their club for the valuation of Max Aaron’s! 

technically only the 87.5% that Evans owned

the other 12.5% is still in the hands of ITFC PLC

[Indy 3,283]

51 minutes ago, Bill said:

not true

How so bill? I thought I read he bolstered their wage shortfall? As he’s just sold it for 30 million and I expect the 70 million debt he accumulated was written off so the new owners debt on the club is 30 million? If you can evaluate on your knowledge on the deal and Evans tenure I’d be grateful. Seriously don’t know but would like to.

[Bill 1,788]

19 minutes ago, Indy said:

How so bill? I thought I read he bolstered their wage shortfall? As he’s just sold it for 30 million and I expect the 70 million debt he accumulated was written off so the new owners debt on the club is 30 million? If you can evaluate on your knowledge on the deal and Evans tenure I’d be grateful. Seriously don’t know but would like to.

check where you read that figure  then check the club accounts

[Badger 2,405]

17 minutes ago, Indy said:

How so bill? I thought I read he bolstered their wage shortfall? As he’s just sold it for 30 million and I expect the 70 million debt he accumulated was written off so the new owners debt on the club is 30 million? If you can evaluate on your knowledge on the deal and Evans tenure I’d be grateful. Seriously don’t know but would like to.

According to the Athletic, Evans has written off the debt the clubs owes him but Gamechanger will take on the other debt (amount unspecified).  In return, Evans will get £30 million, 5% of Gamechanger as well as some of the development land that ITFC held. Without knowing all of the details, this seems like a pretty good deal for Evans in the circumstances.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

To me this should focus the minds of City fans. We are in a brilliant position and it is clear that Webber's thinking has worked "and some". However, things can change quickly in football and we need to hold course exactly as we are doing. Please, no whinging about not spending £80m next season and no overreaction if (when) we lose several on the spin in the Prem. We are BUILDING something, so let's stay calm and help the bricks fall into place.

[Bill 1,788]

15 minutes ago, Badger said:

According to the Athletic, Evans has written off the debt the clubs owes him but Gamechanger will take on the other debt (amount unspecified).  In return, Evans will get £30 million, 5% of Gamechanger as well as some of the development land that ITFC held. Without knowing all of the details, this seems like a pretty good deal for Evans in the circumstances.

other debt ?

"The Bent Lane half of training ground was sold to Marcus Evans (Guernsey) for £1.32 million during the year 2011/12 with Town now paying an annual rent of £40,000."

[dylanisabaddog 4,867]

3 hours ago, Bill said:

I never said that

If you have evidence to prove otherwise please share.

[Bonzo 198]

There is nothing dodgy about this new set-up.

Well, only one thing. This is a bet on a Binner promotion back to the Prem- but let em dream if they want to.

Nonetheless, the directors are all legit, either high end sports investors or as in the case of O'Leary a very successful and accomplished business person with a past interest in football.

The club has had a reasonable attendance and can be rebuilt. This is a 10 year project which may not work out. However there is a big debt write-off/ haircut for Evans plus a bunch of accumulated losses to offset other gains against for the incoming. Plus the new investors have timed their market entry almost perfectly. 

A club at their level with a few quid should do OK next year as their peers will be going bust and players of the right level will be in plentiful supply - plus they will keep their academy. 

These sorts of investors wont overpay and know the value of a sports and entertainment business and how to finance it and have appointed an experienced Chairman.

Good luck to them. It makes no odds to us.

[Bill 1,788]

thanks for confirming I never stated what you claimed

 

ps why not compare my actual words with what you made up 🙄

[TomTheBlue 2]

Have you folks see the interview with Mike O'Leary, the new chairman? Appears that the Americans will have a very minor role in the day to day running of the club. 

I must admit, this morning's news made me worry slightly, in the fact they could do a Bolton, strip the club of all its assets etc. but Mike's interview has steadied those nerves a bit. Hoping that he isn't just a front for some dodgy financial scheme.