breaking - binners sold

[TomTheBlue 2]

So called 'binner' here. It does seem slightly dodgy, admittedly! However, as someone said above, this is a risk we have to take. 

The past 14 years have been so abymsal.

[Greavsy 2,412]

1 minute ago, TomTheBlue said:

So called 'binner' here. It does seem slightly dodgy, admittedly! However, as someone said above, this is a risk we have to take. 

The past 14 years have been so abymsal.

Good luck on here, youre very brave! 

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, TomTheBlue said:

So called 'binner' here. It does seem slightly dodgy, admittedly! However, as someone said above, this is a risk we have to take. 

The past 14 years have been so abymsal.

unfortunately your fans have no say in the decision

and odd how Evans has taken a 5% stake in the new company..... that is being funded by the Arizona state pension find through it’s management company ORG

likewise how much debt has this company taken on, and why ?

how much of the training ground is part of the deal ?

 

[alex_ncfc 644]

Memories of similar words about "one of the finest clubs" and "returning to former glories" being mentioned during their last takeover in 2007. And that went so well 🤣

Nothing to see here.

Edited April 7, 2021 by alex_ncfc

[Thumbbass 318]

I wonder if Felixstowe want to ground share? 

[BroadstairsR 2,135]

2 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

For any pension fund this will be a high risk investment 

they will need to achieve a return quickly or I fear long term for the future of the binners, I don’t fear at all tbh 

Yes. Exactly.

 

I've just read through the thing in more detail for the first time.

The first requirement of these new 'owners' is to make a profit. How is that possible from a long-term loss-maker unless assets are to be sold. The only asset would seem to be the training ground and the lease. They cannot sell the lease at profit so it would seem to be that the training ground is the collateral.

It's weird. There is no business model here. 

This has to be about asset stripping, venture capitalism etc. there is nothing of financial sense otherwise.

"The only way to make a profit is from Premier League existence."

We know that's a fallacy.  It works with big clubs with a worldwide appeal but with little Ipswich Town (and Norwich City to a lesser extent) it is quite impossible.

The only way to make serious money for a club like ITFC is to have a fruitful academy and sell on.

[TomTheBlue 2]

4 minutes ago, Bill said:

unfortunately your fans have no say in the decision

and odd how Evans has taken a 5% stake in the new company..... that is being funded by the Arizona state pension find through it’s management company ORG

likewise how much debt has this company taken on, and why ?

how much of the training ground is part of the deal ?

 

Very odd part of the deal regarding the 5%. My biggest concern is that Gamechanger 20 is just a registered front for a few millionaires, reminds me of a Wigan/Bolton. Part of the deal is to buy up some facilities, unsure whether that means PR and/or the training ground - hoping more deals come through. 

It's a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario, not knowing whether Marcus Evans' stewardship has kept Ipswich afloat over the past 14 years and our decline would've been greater under someone else - or whether Marcus Evans is the reason for our decline. We'll wait and see I guess.

[Making Plans 936]

Interesting article here from 2017, including this little gem

Milne said: “It’s interesting what’s going on at Norwich. They’ve gone for a sporting director and a head coach, but I think there can only be one captain of the ship – the manager.

“They are trying that route and it’s clearly worked at some clubs, but not at the majority. We’re going to see more younger, foreign managers, like the (David) Wagners, but we believe in what we are doing here. We think it works well and it’s proven to have worked well in the not too distant past.

https://trainingground.guru/articles/ipswich-md-casts-doubt-on-new-norwich-structure/categories/leadership/

[Bill 1,788]

Evans has merely been someone who has gone through the pockets of some who has been knocked to the ground (by Sheepshanks)

and as stated above

"The only way to make serious money for a club like ITFC is to have a fruitful academy and sell on. "

which I would suggest is a few seasons down the line and realistically requires a CAT 1 academy

the real concern must be that the debt has not been wiped out, therefore is there to charge interest on, much as what Evans has been doing

as to the training ground. that was transferred to one of Evans offshore holding companies in Guernsey

Edited April 7, 2021 by Bill

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

1 hour ago, Coneys Knee said:

Well, we’ll , well, I look forward to them waving their fivers aloft

No, promissory notes.

A couple of points. What I have not seen is is how big this pension fund is, and so what percentage will Ipswich Town constitute of its investments. Yes, pension funds need money-making assets but it may well be Ipswich Town is only a very small part of its portfolio. I have seen comments that the fund will be looking for instant and highy profitable success. Possibly, so, but it may be willing to take a longer term view. It will amost certainly need to....🤓

The other point, reading one or two posts on TWTD that seem to have a measure of inside info, is that after all Cook's appointment may well have been liked to the takeover, and it was just that events got misaligned.

Edited April 7, 2021 by PurpleCanary

[NeymarSmith 130]

36 minutes ago, TomTheBlue said:

So called 'binner' here. It does seem slightly dodgy, admittedly! However, as someone said above, this is a risk we have to take. 

The past 14 years have been so abymsal.

Welcome welcome!

Obviously you all wanted ME out. So realistically you now have what you want. How and where do you feel this takeover will take you? I'd assume it won't be a splash the cash for promotion gig? 

Can any money even be spent now with the wage cap and ffp?

What's the feeling with your supporters on the new ownership and the new boss? 

How would you feel if nothing changes in terms of investment and structure but you just become a run of the mill L1 side? I suppose what I'm asking is what is it you want the new owners to bring to what they actually are likely to? So are you actually going to be better off with them.

I have a feeling it may well be a better the devil you know scenario. Having said that I understand that relationship between fans and ME had to end. 

I for one hope you get up to champ and are solid there, I want derby days.

[Duncan Edwards 2,216]

The important thing is that we bookmark this thread for the next time we're rubbish and the old line about "investment not being out there" is trotted out when it's Delia Out time again. 😉

[Bill 1,788]

I would expect the pension fund to be rather large, given that it is the Arizona state pension fund for fire services, police etc

The finds are managed by ORG who are putting up the necessary amount to Gamechanger, a company set up as a separate entity to own  just under 80% of the club

Whatever funds have been put up, and those in the future, the idea is to return a profit - unless part of the return is one off offsetting tax against the clubs continuous losses

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,421]

Are there any examples of this model working ? 

[Bill 1,788]

Transferring ownership without removing the debt

see - Phillip Green et al

[Bill 1,788]

42 minutes ago, TomTheBlue said:

Very odd part of the deal regarding the 5%. My biggest concern is that Gamechanger 20 is just a registered front for a few millionaires, reminds me of a Wigan/Bolton. Part of the deal is to buy up some facilities, unsure whether that means PR and/or the training ground - hoping more deals come through.

"As well as his five per cent stake in Gamechanger 20 Ltd, we understand as per previous TWTD reports that Evans will keep a section of the Bent Lane training ground which is currently unused. This area, sometimes referred to as 'wasteland', has long been ear-marked for development."

one asset that has already been stripped

[cambridgeshire canary 6,669]

59 minutes ago, TomTheBlue said:

So called 'binner' here. It does seem slightly dodgy, admittedly! However, as someone said above, this is a risk we have to take. 

The past 14 years have been so abymsal.

Come here to wave money at us again?😉

[TheGunnShow 5,905]

44 minutes ago, TomTheBlue said:

Very odd part of the deal regarding the 5%. My biggest concern is that Gamechanger 20 is just a registered front for a few millionaires, reminds me of a Wigan/Bolton. Part of the deal is to buy up some facilities, unsure whether that means PR and/or the training ground - hoping more deals come through. 

It's a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario, not knowing whether Marcus Evans' stewardship has kept Ipswich afloat over the past 14 years and our decline would've been greater under someone else - or whether Marcus Evans is the reason for our decline. We'll wait and see I guess.

That said (Canary fan living in Bolton here), Bolton had to sell their Euxton training ground under the chaotic stewardship of Ken Anderson (think Preston bought it off them - which makes sense as Euxton's much nearer to Preston than Bolton) and had a new one built in Bolton itself.

As much as our two sides don't like each other, I wouldn't wish what happened to Bolton and particularly Bury on anyone.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

3 minutes ago, Bill said:

"As well as his five per cent stake in Gamechanger 20 Ltd, we understand as per previous TWTD reports that Evans will keep a section of the Bent Lane training ground which is currently unused. This area, sometimes referred to as 'wasteland', has long been ear-marked for development."

one asset that has already been stripped

Could equally apply to Ipswich in its entirety.

[kirku 1,332]

58 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Yes. Exactly.

 

I've just read through the thing in more detail for the first time.

The first requirement of these new 'owners' is to make a profit. How is that possible from a long-term loss-maker unless assets are to be sold. The only asset would seem to be the training ground and the lease. They cannot sell the lease at profit so it would seem to be that the training ground is the collateral.

It's weird. There is no business model here. 

This has to be about asset stripping, venture capitalism etc. there is nothing of financial sense otherwise.

"The only way to make a profit is from Premier League existence."

We know that's a fallacy.  It works with big clubs with a worldwide appeal but with little Ipswich Town (and Norwich City to a lesser extent) it is quite impossible.

The only way to make serious money for a club like ITFC is to have a fruitful academy and sell on.

This is what I can't get my head around in the slightest.

The investment needed to return them to the PL would be astronomical and would carry significant risk, and would likely outstrip the value of the club even if they were to make it there.

Unless there's something I'm missing (very possible), I can't connect the dots.

[Bill 1,788]

14 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Could equally apply to Ipswich in its entirety.

poorman road 2027

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

What is going on in football? Burnley, not long ago, and now Ipswich, appear to be owned by profit only investors.

I do not have enough financial nous to comment too much but I for the life of me cannot see what these investors see in football clubs.

Evans bought the Ipswich debt for less than half. So I can see that he could make money, but not the Yanks.

[kirku 1,332]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

What is going on in football? Burnley, not long ago, and now Ipswich, appear to be owned by profit only investors.

I do not have enough financial nous to comment too much but I for the life of me cannot see what these investors see in football clubs.

Evans bought the Ipswich debt for less than half. So I can see that he could make money, but not the Yanks.

I can see the rationale with Burnley, lower cost base than most clubs and stable in the PL. You can see the business case for profit in that circumstance.

Ipswich? They have few assets of any value and the investment required to get them back into the PL would be huge, and even then they'd need to be in the PL for a good few years to even approach Burnley's approx £250m valuation. I don't get it.

[Hansterbubble 55]

I think Purple is right and that the pension scheme can hold a number of riskier assets without running into Regulatory issues. I was just eating lunch and wondering what their investment strategy will be?

They will want a return on their investment but as others have said, the asset base is thin, so no players or lucrative land to sell, so it feels unlikely to be short term gains. The ownership stake means it’s more than just about making some interest on loans, and profits are too erratic to make a good dividend stream, so it must be about inflating the asset value by reaching the premier league. So far so obvious I’d say, but what’s the magic recipe for doing that? How long does it take, how much more do you risk (financially) to get there and how do you get the right structure and personnel to do that? It will be interesting to see how these questions resolve in the next few months and how well that aligns with what the fans want.

You can see how it might work if things go well and some momentum builds, but that’s not easy to do. I remember watching the Sunderland Netflix show, where Ellis Short, the US owner at the time, had lost interest in the club as an investment and didn’t seem to want to sell or to support it. On the surface it seems Marcus Evans was doing the same. I guess it’s good to get new money in, but does that break the cycle or will this investor find the job to big and fall back into being disinterested in the club in the longer term? 

 

 

[TomTheBlue 2]

40 minutes ago, NeymarSmith said:

Welcome welcome!

Obviously you all wanted ME out. So realistically you now have what you want. How and where do you feel this takeover will take you? I'd assume it won't be a splash the cash for promotion gig? 

Can any money even be spent now with the wage cap and ffp?

What's the feeling with your supporters on the new ownership and the new boss? 

How would you feel if nothing changes in terms of investment and structure but you just become a run of the mill L1 side? I suppose what I'm asking is what is it you want the new owners to bring to what they actually are likely to? So are you actually going to be better off with them.

I have a feeling it may well be a better the devil you know scenario. Having said that I understand that relationship between fans and ME had to end. 

I for one hope you get up to champ and are solid there, I want derby days.

Thank you. Not entirely sure where this takeover is going to take us in all honesty - it's a bit like a McCarthy situation (was one of the few 'McCarthy in' fans myself) where the relationship between fans and the manager had to end, despite McCarthy actually doing an incredible job under the circumstances. 

The L1 and L2 salary cap has fortunately, for us, been scrapped. It'd have ruined us with players like Emyr Huws and Judgey taking home huge amounts. 

I've seen unfair criticism of Marcus Evans this morning, he pumped a lot of his own cash in and I think genuinely wants to see Ipswich succeed, however the relationship with fans and the lack of permanent transfers is what needed to change. 

I think most Town fans are pleased with the Paul Cook appointment, he's got a very solid history, and sparked a bit of personality and passion into the club, which the predecessor didn't seem to have. We've got a huge squad and we need a clear out in the summer - seems like many players are caught in this losing mentality. Need lots of fresh blood at the club, and may be a time to wave goodbye to the old guard in Chambers and Skusey (both nice blokes who do a lot for the club, but fresh leadership would be great.) 

Not entirely sure how we'll manage next season, but Paul Cook has experience of managing and getting promoted under tough circumstances. Here's to being hopeful. 

Me too. I miss them like mad.

[Hansterbubble 55]

If your were an investment manager for the pension scheme, how would you pitch this to the investment strategy board? Kirku and Tom make some good points, as it looks as if the first couple of years it will make big losses as you clear out old staff, buy in new players, appoint new managers and coaches. So definitely more investment needed in the short term, but what’s expected in return in terms of the on the pitch results and in what time frame? What if that doesn’t happen, how do you keep the investment going?

Putting money into our academy, facilities and coaching gives us an ability to make money from something other than just promotion and has given us a solid financial base and contributed to our football success. It’s been a good model for us and as first movers we’ve had a real advantage with it. Be interesting to see if Ipswich follow suit or go down more traditional pathways.

[Hansterbubble 55]

I miss the derbies too. No other game makes the nerves tingle in the same way. 

[kirku 1,332]

11 minutes ago, TomTheBlue said:

I think most Town fans are pleased with the Paul Cook appointment, he's got a very solid history, and sparked a bit of personality and passion into the club, which the predecessor didn't seem to have.

Surely about the only thing Lambert actually brought to your club was "personality and passion" (even if it was entirely for cynical reasons)..

[kirku 1,332]

5 minutes ago, Hansterbubble said:

If your were an investment manager for the pension scheme, how would you pitch this to the investment strategy board? Kirku and Tom make some good points, as it looks as if the first couple of years it will make big losses as you clear out old staff, buy in new players, appoint new managers and coaches. So definitely more investment needed in the short term, but what’s expected in return in terms of the on the pitch results and in what time frame? What if that doesn’t happen, how do you keep the investment going?

In the spirit of fag packet lunch break maths...

£150m to get to the PL

£100m to stabilise

This is why I can't make it stack

Edited April 7, 2021 by kirku

[ricardo 7,328]

I'm just glad that none of my pension comes through the Arizona State Pension Fund.