Michael Bailey

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

6 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Every ref is dreadful - that's why they are refs. Why would anyone with an operative brain cell choose to be a referee? Their personality traits must be questionable for them to even occupy that position. It will never change until we have fully professional officials and pay them properly to encourage better, fitter, more knowledgeable and more intelligent people to take it up.

Hang on a minute... say whaaaat?

What a load of absolute garbage. I refereed, and my dad before me, and I knew plenty of referees who were extremely insightful, intelligent people who wanted to enable other people to have a game of footy on the weekend. Some were former players whose careers were ended by injury, some were people who loved the game but just weren't very good at it, some were just looking for a way to make a bit of pocket money and get some exercise... and you think paying them more money is going to suddenly make them better?

If anything, the more you pay them, the more you'll get people like you laying waste to them from the sanctuary of your keyboard because "the amount they're paid, they shouldn't be making mistakes like that." You need to take a step back, give your head a wobble and have a think about what you're saying.

[Greavsy 2,412]

👆👆

This. 

[Crabbycanary3 994]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Footballers treat the officials with contempt. Therefore they are treating decisions with contempt. And that leads to treating the rules with contempt.

I would like a rule that says if the referee is hastled or sworn at, he can take out  pistol and fire a warning shot through said players head.

A shot through the head is just a warning shot kg? Blimey, what happens after that, dissection on the pitch and the body parts fed to the hyenas?

[Crabbycanary3 994]

29 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Hang on a minute... say whaaaat?

What a load of absolute garbage. I refereed, and my dad before me, and I knew plenty of referees who were extremely insightful, intelligent people who wanted to enable other people to have a game of footy on the weekend. Some were former players whose careers were ended by injury, some were people who loved the game but just weren't very good at it, some were just looking for a way to make a bit of pocket money and get some exercise... and you think paying them more money is going to suddenly make them better?

If anything, the more you pay them, the more you'll get people like you laying waste to them from the sanctuary of your keyboard because "the amount they're paid, they shouldn't be making mistakes like that." You need to take a step back, give your head a wobble and have a think about what you're saying.

I have been a rugby referee. Next best thing to playing. 

[Greavsy 2,412]

 

6 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

I have been a rugby referee. Next best thing to playing. 

Totally admire the respect the refs get in rugby - Football has so much to learn from them. 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

10 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

A shot through the head is just a warning shot kg? Blimey, what happens after that, dissection on the pitch and the body parts fed to the hyenas?

Or, in South Africa...

Did a referee really shoot a player dead? | Football | The Guardian

[Crabbycanary3 994]

3 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

 

Totally admire the respect the refs get in rugby - Football has so much to learn from them. 

It does, and the Refs need back up from the authorities with different Laws etc. I am not absolving all Refs as they make some right rickets but they are not responsible for everything that goes wrong. 

[Petriix 2,834]

10 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

I'm usually first on these threads sticking up for the referees, but not on this occasion. In his favour he was consistently lenient, and there were passages of play where I thought there were three or four fouls by both teams that he waved away. I was pleased to see Ledson booked early, as I thought we'd got a no-nonsense ref who wasn't going to put up with any roughneck tactics... how wrong was I?!

He wasn't biased in the slightest, but his leniency played squarely into the hands of the team with the physical gameplan. 

Your argument, well presented as it is, doesn't stack up. When one team has two thirds of the possession, the other team will commit two thirds of the fouls. Then when you factor in the 'style' of play it becomes much more than that.

Preston committed at least a dozen fouls that weren't given to about three from us. Very similar to Blackburn, they targeted our players and (with the exception of the early booking) got away with it.

We're seeing it repeatedly this season. Because we're more technical and spend longer with the ball, teams have not answer other than to foul us. Referees should be giving us far more protection.

Buendia jumped out of the tackle because it would have broken his leg. He would easily have got to the ball first. That's a straight red in my opinion, but absolutely a yellow at minimum. The ref didn't even give a foul.

[hogesar 9,618]

14 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Your argument, well presented as it is, doesn't stack up. When one team has two thirds of the possession, the other team will commit two thirds of the fouls. Then when you factor in the 'style' of play it becomes much more than that.

Preston committed at least a dozen fouls that weren't given to about three from us. Very similar to Blackburn, they targeted our players and (with the exception of the early booking) got away with it.

We're seeing it repeatedly this season. Because we're more technical and spend longer with the ball, teams have not answer other than to foul us. Referees should be giving us far more protection.

Buendia jumped out of the tackle because it would have broken his leg. He would easily have got to the ball first. That's a straight red in my opinion, but absolutely a yellow at minimum. The ref didn't even give a foul.

Have to agree with a lot of the above on reflection.

[sgncfc 1,221]

1 hour ago, Feedthewolf said:

Hang on a minute... say whaaaat?

What a load of absolute garbage. I refereed, and my dad before me, and I knew plenty of referees who were extremely insightful, intelligent people who wanted to enable other people to have a game of footy on the weekend. Some were former players whose careers were ended by injury, some were people who loved the game but just weren't very good at it, some were just looking for a way to make a bit of pocket money and get some exercise... and you think paying them more money is going to suddenly make them better?

If anything, the more you pay them, the more you'll get people like you laying waste to them from the sanctuary of your keyboard because "the amount they're paid, they shouldn't be making mistakes like that." You need to take a step back, give your head a wobble and have a think about what you're saying.

I appreciate I have offended you, which wasn't my intention. I am talking specifically about upper level football referees (not any other sport), who take such abuse from almost everyone. I'm not sure any other sport values it's officials so poorly. Maybe you're the exception that proves the rule. I actually tend not to criticise referees too much - I have been one too and it is a completely impossible job. That does translate to a certain type of character taking up the role up to that level (whether you agree with that or not, it's absolutely true). It's a bit like some other vocational or ego based roles  - the motivation to do the job isn't financial for all the supposedly right reasons, but in reality that means the vast majority of candidates who reach the top of the tree are not from the top level of capability. I could give you examples from other professions or industries but you'd probably just take offence and insult me again.

But look at some of the interpretations we have seen with VAR - these are clearly not the brightest or the most capable of individuals making such decisions. They are usually simple rule enforcers who are taken advantage of by their superiors and by the people they are policing, and they are easily fooled by players who are experts at conning, cheating, game managers or whatever else you want to call it.

Yes, I do think paying professional referees would, in time, make them better. They are telling footballers who earn 100 times more than them what to do. Some of the ones we have had this season are so unfit they can't physically keep up with play; the lack of consistency in their decisions is frequently visible within the same 5 minute period of a match, let alone over 90 minutes, or even game to game. 

And finally, you need to perhaps learn that just because someone holds a different view to you that doesn't make them deserving of insults. Maybe it's the referee in you.....

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

Your argument, well presented as it is, doesn't stack up. When one team has two thirds of the possession, the other team will commit two thirds of the fouls. Then when you factor in the 'style' of play it becomes much more than that.

Preston committed at least a dozen fouls that weren't given to about three from us. Very similar to Blackburn, they targeted our players and (with the exception of the early booking) got away with it.

We're seeing it repeatedly this season. Because we're more technical and spend longer with the ball, teams have not answer other than to foul us. Referees should be giving us far more protection.

Buendia jumped out of the tackle because it would have broken his leg. He would easily have got to the ball first. That's a straight red in my opinion, but absolutely a yellow at minimum. The ref didn't even give a foul.

Yes that tackle was two footed with no control , we’ve had players sent off for much less and as soon as I saw it I was expecting probably a red but at least a yellow. I was just amazed when he gave nothing and I lost count of times when Cantwell and Buendia had a player come straight through them form behind when the ball was played to them which normally would be a yellow but often this ref didn’t even give a foul. If he’d reffed those challenges correctly they’d have either had to stop fouling so much or they’d have had someone sent off and either way it would have been the right outcome. 

[Newtopia 517]

12 hours ago, kick it off said:

Don't disagree with any of that Newtopia - except the ref being bad. You're right, he wasn't bias, but he was ****ing ****. The issue is consistency. Ledson must have kicked Emi at least 4 times (not to mention various other players) both on and off the ball, after he was booked in the 9th minute, yet Onel is booked within a minute for a far less serious infraction than any of the ones Ledson had after he was already carded. I don't dispute Onel deserved a yellow, I dispute the fact that Ledson deserved to walk off the pitch at the final whistle rather than midway through the second half after his numerous fouls. Could probably have had 3 or 4 bookings for him alone.

They committed 17 fouls (that's not including a number that the officials missed, just the ones given) yet only have 1 yellow card to show for it?

True, at that level their performance will be assessed and calibrated by another ref.  The point about not protecting Buendia is fair enough, I did not think it was that obvious, but I did not count them.
 

it is amazing that these are some of the best referees in country, it makes me wonder about the way they are assessed. At grassroots I see lots of very good young referees, I wonder if these are the guys we see at the top.  I would hope so.

[Gordon Bennett 780]

14 hours ago, Greavsy said:

 

Totally admire the respect the refs get in rugby - Football has so much to learn from them. 

A few years ago I’m sure a rule was trialled in football where any lip was punished with a concession of ten yards like in rugby, but unfortunately it was never fully implemented which is a shame as I thought it was a good idea. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Gordon Bennett

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

10 hours ago, sgncfc said:

I appreciate I have offended you, which wasn't my intention. I am talking specifically about upper level football referees (not any other sport), who take such abuse from almost everyone. I'm not sure any other sport values it's officials so poorly. Maybe you're the exception that proves the rule. I actually tend not to criticise referees too much - I have been one too and it is a completely impossible job. That does translate to a certain type of character taking up the role up to that level (whether you agree with that or not, it's absolutely true). It's a bit like some other vocational or ego based roles  - the motivation to do the job isn't financial for all the supposedly right reasons, but in reality that means the vast majority of candidates who reach the top of the tree are not from the top level of capability. I could give you examples from other professions or industries but you'd probably just take offence and insult me again.

But look at some of the interpretations we have seen with VAR - these are clearly not the brightest or the most capable of individuals making such decisions. They are usually simple rule enforcers who are taken advantage of by their superiors and by the people they are policing, and they are easily fooled by players who are experts at conning, cheating, game managers or whatever else you want to call it.

Yes, I do think paying professional referees would, in time, make them better. They are telling footballers who earn 100 times more than them what to do. Some of the ones we have had this season are so unfit they can't physically keep up with play; the lack of consistency in their decisions is frequently visible within the same 5 minute period of a match, let alone over 90 minutes, or even game to game. 

And finally, you need to perhaps learn that just because someone holds a different view to you that doesn't make them deserving of insults. Maybe it's the referee in you.....

I'm not buying into this, sorry. I refer you to your original comment: "Every ref is dreadful - that's why they are refs. Why would anyone with an operative brain cell choose to be a referee? Their personality traits must be questionable for them to even occupy that position."

I absolutely stand by my opinion that this comment is absolute garbage. There is plenty of merit in some of your later comments, but you lost your opportunity to engage me in serious discussion on the subject due to the absurd, divisive and frankly insulting nature of your original comments. And the irony of you then backing off and going into victim mode because I "insulted" you, wow! Just because someone holds a different view to me, that doesn't make them deserving of insults; I engage in a huge amount of reasoned and good-natured debate on here. I called out what I thought was a remarkably arrogant and contemptuous post, and I stand by that.

As far as I'm concerned I've said what I need to on the subject, and it's done. I can't recall ever having been annoyed with anything you've posted before, so maybe we've both had a bit of a moment. Enjoy the rest of the season, OTBC.

[Greavsy 2,412]

56 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

A few years ago I’m sure a rule was trialled in football where any lip was punished with a confession of ten yards like in rugby, but unfortunately it was never fully implemented which is a shame as I thought it was a good idea. 

Yep, that rings a bell too. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Greavsy

[Ken Hairy 3,759]

24 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Yep, that rings a bell too. 

Yeah, I remember this was one of the few really good rule changes that has been implemented in recent times, so of course the powers that be binned it off. 🙄

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

12 hours ago, Petriix said:

Your argument, well presented as it is, doesn't stack up. When one team has two thirds of the possession, the other team will commit two thirds of the fouls. Then when you factor in the 'style' of play it becomes much more than that.

Preston committed at least a dozen fouls that weren't given to about three from us. Very similar to Blackburn, they targeted our players and (with the exception of the early booking) got away with it.

We're seeing it repeatedly this season. Because we're more technical and spend longer with the ball, teams have not answer other than to foul us. Referees should be giving us far more protection.

Buendia jumped out of the tackle because it would have broken his leg. He would easily have got to the ball first. That's a straight red in my opinion, but absolutely a yellow at minimum. The ref didn't even give a foul.

I totally hear what you're saying here, but I don't think our points of view are mutually exclusive? I'm just saying that because the referee was consistently lenient, that favoured Preston more than us. At the other end of the dichotomy, if you have a harsh, whistle-happy referee who gets his cards out at the first opportunity and punishes any little indiscretion, that will play into our hands as we're more often sinned against for the reasons you outlined in your post.

If all referees officiated in the same way as yesterday's ref, that would put us at a huge disadvantage. I'm not suggesting that I don't think that, in general, referees have been too lenient too often against our opponents this season, but just that a referee's style, if applied consistently, may well benefit some teams more than others but does not constitute deliberate 'bias', rather a by-product of their interpretation of the rules.

Bottom line, though, is that our most creative players have too often been underprotected by referees this season. One would hope that next season in the Premier League refs would be a bit wiser to those 'dark arts' than are employed against 'flair' players... fingers crossed.

I think the fantastic Adam Hurrey best summarised the impossible job of the referee with this very simple Venn diagram:

Edited April 4, 2021 by Feedthewolf

[ron obvious 1,499]

 

I often feel that, because we're better than the opposition, the referee feels it's his job to even things up a bit. I mean it's just not British to allow one team to have an advantage over another.

[Petriix 2,834]

39 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I totally hear what you're saying here, but I don't think our points of view are mutually exclusive? I'm just saying that because the referee was consistently lenient, that favoured Preston more than us. At the other end of the dichotomy, if you have a harsh, whistle-happy referee who gets his cards out at the first opportunity and punishes any little indiscretion, that will play into our hands as we're more often sinned against for the reasons you outlined in your post.

If all referees officiated in the same way as yesterday's ref, that would put us at a huge disadvantage. I'm not suggesting that I don't think that, in general, referees have been too lenient too often against our opponents this season, but just that a referee's style, if applied consistently, may well benefit some teams more than others but does not constitute deliberate 'bias', rather a by-product of their interpretation of the rules.

Bottom line, though, is that our most creative players have too often been underprotected by referees this season. One would hope that next season in the Premier League refs would be a bit wiser to those 'dark arts' than are employed against 'flair' players... fingers crossed.

I think the fantastic Adam Hurrey best summarised the impossible job of the referee with this very simple Venn diagram:

Yeah, I don't think we're coming from entirely different positions. I just think that leniency will always favour the transgressors so, while it may not appear as bias per se , it is definitely biased in terms of influence and outcome.

Beautiful football of the brand we play is only possible in the modern paradigm in which out of control, dangerous tackles are penalised and fouls are given every time you play man and ball. Referees are failing to apply the rules of the game and it's costing us; albeit minimally given how close we are to the title.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

14 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Yeah, I don't think we're coming from entirely different positions. I just think that leniency will always favour the transgressors so, while it may not appear as bias per se , it is definitely biased in terms of influence and outcome.

Beautiful football of the brand we play is only possible in the modern paradigm in which out of control, dangerous tackles are penalised and fouls are given every time you play man and ball. Referees are failing to apply the rules of the game and it's costing us; albeit minimally given how close we are to the title.

Yes, good points well made; I agree with every word of this.

[horsefly 4,287]

13 hours ago, Petriix said:

Buendia jumped out of the tackle because it would have broken his leg. He would easily have got to the ball first. That's a straight red in my opinion, but absolutely a yellow at minimum. The ref didn't even give a foul.

Spot on! This is something we see a lot in the game that seldom gets punished; a player losing the ball because he has to take avoiding action to prevent a potentially serious injury from a reckless challenge. The Buendia case is a perfect example. The opposing player would have been perfectly within his rights to hold his ground in the 50-50 challenge, he had absolutely no right to lunge forward with two feet forcing Buendia to mitigate the injury to himself by jumping as far clear as he was able. That the referee was incapable of seeing this was very poor indeed. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

1 hour ago, Greavsy said:

Yep, that rings a bell too. 

 

1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

Yeah, I remember this was one of the few really good rule changes that has been implemented in recent times, so of course the powers that be binned it off. 🙄

I think I can remember the reasoning being that non rugby playing nations didn’t/wouldn’t understand the concept which of course is a load of old pony. 

[corbs 147]

I liked the way Bailey stood and spoke his mind on this one.