Racism Report

[Mr.Carrow 376]

8 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Thanks for the defense HF - I actually didn't think these simple observations here where that contentious or threatening to some.

As to Carrow's leap into the abyss - frankly don't know what he's on about but it looks dark down there.

However, amused me slightly as a serious girlfriend I had long ago was German (Black Forest area), her father injured and limped (bullet in leg) from WW2. He'd been 'conscripted' into' Hitler Youth (and no he really didn't have a serious choice!). 

When your girlfriend only exists because when the ideologically possessed mob came for her father, he only survived because he tried to shoot himself in the heart by pulling the trigger of a rifle with his toe and missed. He was rushed to hospital and the doctors pulled him through and hid his identity. His crime? Being a very accomplished and popular teacher in Cambodia during Pol Pot's reign of evil. To the day he died he was receiving thank you letters from ex-students doing very well for themselves all around the world. I know ideological possession when I see it, and I very definitely see it on the Woke Left. If you don't see it I would think you probably only engage in media which refuses to cover it. So yes, when you see sheltered, know nothing know alls angling for history to repeat itself you could say that is coming from a dark place.

I'm currently living in a hostel in Buenos Aires full of immigrant workers from around South America. Many have lost their income due to the pandemic but everybody tries to help each other and there is a jovial, egalitarian if very earthy and very politically incorrect atmosphere. According to your definition they are all racists but have far more respect for these honest people than some of the contributors to this thread.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Mr.Carrow

[BigFish 1,986]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

This constant policing of words and taking offence when none was intended simply leads to people self censoring, especially around those of a different race. This segregation of cultures (cultural appropriation is another example) sets race relations backwards in my opinion, whereby I’m expected to see somebody as a black man rather than simply a man, and judge him and act according to his skin colour first and foremost rather than his personality. 

I don't think you are getting this. You are not  expected to see somebody as a black man rather than simply a man, you are expected to see him as a man. But in a world where you see somebody....simply a man     why are society's measurable outcomes so different? That is critical race theory.    

[horsefly 4,287]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

When your girlfriend only exists because when the ideologically possessed mob came for her father, he only survived because he tried to shoot himself in the heart by pulling the trigger of a rifle with his toe and missed. He was rushed to hospital and the doctors pulled him through and hid his identity. His crime? Being a very accomplished and popular teacher in Cambodia during Pol Pot's reign of evil. To the day he died he was receiving thank you letters from ex-students doing very well for themselves all around the world. I know ideological possession when I see it, and I very definitely see it on the Woke Left. If you don't see it I would think you probably only engage in media which refuses to cover it. So yes, when you see sheltered, know nothing know alls angling for history to repeat itself you could say that is coming from a dark place.

I'm currently living in a hostel in Buenos Aires full of immigrant workers from around South America. Many have lost their income due to the pandemic but everybody tries to help each other and there is a jovial, egalitarian if very earthy and very politically incorrect atmosphere. According to your definition they are all racists but have far more respect for these honest people than some of the contributors to this thread.

Every posts gets more and more ridiculous: "when you see sheltered, know nothing know alls angling for history to repeat itself you could say that is coming from a dark place." On what planet does the claim that there is a need for society to recognise that there are significant problems with overt and institutionalised racism, descend into the crazy claim that those who say this are campaigning for the repeat of a Pol Pot style massacre of millions of its own people? Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you say such things?

Do you not realise that the lack of self-awareness you display within the space of a single sentence such as, "I know ideological possession when I see it, and I very definitely see it on the Woke Left" is simply risible. Top of the ideological charts at this moment is the use of the totalising, ideological phrase "Woke left" co-opted by the right-wing ruling establishment as pejorative catch-all dismissal of any thought that might challenge its hegemony. That you are willing to provide a mouthpiece for this nonsense is astonishing. Why not attend to the specific issues being raised by people instead of ascribing to them stupid straw-man sinister ideologies they clearly reject.

When you have to resort to translating someone saying that racism can sometimes manifest itself in subtle ways that an individual might be unaware of, into a claim that they are calling such people "vile Na*zi racists", then you ought to be aware that you have lost any grip on reality.

[Fen Canary 793]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

I don't think you are getting this. You are not  expected to see somebody as a black man rather than simply a man, you are expected to see him as a man. But in a world where you see somebody....simply a man     why are society's measurable outcomes so different? That is critical race theory.    

There are many reasons for the discrepancies, many of which (economic, family breakdown etc) were mentioned in the report you’ve been so quick to dismiss.

I also don’t buy your simplistic explanation of CRT either. To me it’s an incredibly dangerous subject, which is leading us further and further into segregation. Any mixing of the cultures draws accusations of cultural appropriation, it somehow manages to label those in mixed race relationships as racist, it implies that different races can never find common ground on issues due to a vague concept of lived experience, to me it’s a disgusting ideology, much more akin to a religious cult with its language and symbolism than a true academic theory 

[horsefly 4,287]

5 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

There are many reasons for the discrepancies, many of which (economic, family breakdown etc) were mentioned in the report you’ve been so quick to dismiss.

I also don’t buy your simplistic explanation of CRT either. To me it’s an incredibly dangerous subject, which is leading us further and further into segregation. Any mixing of the cultures draws accusations of cultural appropriation, it somehow manages to label those in mixed race relationships as racist, it implies that different races can never find common ground on issues due to a vague concept of lived experience, to me it’s a disgusting ideology, much more akin to a religious cult with its language and symbolism than a true academic theory 

Well at least you proved one thing today; you know nothing about Critical Race Theory.

[BigFish 1,986]

18 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

There are many reasons for the discrepancies, many of which (economic, family breakdown etc) were mentioned in the report you’ve been so quick to dismiss.

I also don’t buy your simplistic explanation of CRT either. To me it’s an incredibly dangerous subject, which is leading us further and further into segregation. Any mixing of the cultures draws accusations of cultural appropriation, it somehow manages to label those in mixed race relationships as racist, it implies that different races can never find common ground on issues due to a vague concept of lived experience, to me it’s a disgusting ideology, much more akin to a religious cult with its language and symbolism than a true academic theory 

 

12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Well at least you proved one thing today; you know nothing about Critical Race Theory.

Clearly you are correct @horsefly that @Fen Canary knows nothing about CRT or the whitewash report. But knowledge isn't needed if you swallow the straw man argument of  Any mixing of the cultures draws accusations of cultural appropriation, it somehow manages to label those in mixed race relationships as racist, it implies that different races can never find common ground on issues due to a vague concept of lived experience, to me it’s a disgusting ideology, much more akin to a religious cult with its language and symbolism than a true academic theory rather than chose to debate on issues. It is clearly untrue, I suspect it relies on the same Youtube channels and contrarians that @Mr Carrow relies on for his information. 

[horsefly 4,287]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

 

Clearly you are correct @horsefly that @Fen Canary knows nothing about CRT or the whitewash report. But knowledge isn't needed if you swallow the straw man argument of  Any mixing of the cultures draws accusations of cultural appropriation, it somehow manages to label those in mixed race relationships as racist, it implies that different races can never find common ground on issues due to a vague concept of lived experience, to me it’s a disgusting ideology, much more akin to a religious cult with its language and symbolism than a true academic theory rather than chose to debate on issues. It is clearly untrue, I suspect it relies on the same Youtube channels and contrarians that @Mr Carrow relies on for his information. 

Spot on BF! When my black Afro-Carribean partner gets home from injecting people with vaccines all day, I will inform her that certain "authorities" on here have enlightened me that my acceptance of the concept of institutionalised racism means I am committed to the idea that we should be racially segregated. If only someone had told us this 25 years ago. Oh well! as long as I get to call bagsy on the best bedroom it shouldn't all be bad.

[Badger 2,405]

15 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I do and have written as such. I just don't accept the totalising framing and language employed by the Woke left nor do I like and trust the movement and philosophy behind it (applied post modern critical theory). Given that I've posted loads of links,none of which you've engaged with, I think it's clear you simply don't want to actually understand what I'm getting at and would rather constantly throw out falsehoods.

I'm glad that you acknowledge institutional racism. My recollection was that you not - but perhaps I misremembered.

[Fen Canary 793]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Spot on BF! When my black Afro-Carribean partner gets home from injecting people with vaccines all day, I will inform her that certain "authorities" on here have enlightened me that my acceptance of the concept of institutionalised racism means I am committed to the idea that we should be racially segregated. If only someone had told us this 25 years ago. Oh well! as long as I get to call bagsy on the best bedroom it shouldn't all be bad.

What does your partner think of your unconscious biased views of white supremacy?

[horsefly 4,287]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

What does your partner think of your unconscious biased views of white supremacy?

She thinks you're an idiot! On that point we totally agree, although of course I had to give her permission to read your past tripe. The key word here is "think", you really should try giving it a go one day.

[Fen Canary 793]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

She thinks you're an idiot! On that point we totally agree, although of course I had to give her permission to read your past tripe. The key word here is "think", you really should try giving it a go one day.

So white people aren’t all inherently racist? That’s good to know!

I must also say you’re an expert at turning interesting discussions involving numerous angles and points of view into a load of pedantic nonsense and childish insults

[horsefly 4,287]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

So white people aren’t all inherently racist? That’s good to know!

I must also say you’re an expert at turning interesting discussions involving numerous angles and points of view into a load of pedantic nonsense and childish insults

Oh dear! you truly are thick aren't you. If only you spent a fraction of the time you spend posting uniformed tripe on actually reading the ideas you claim to despise you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself by posting things like this. The idea that have anything to contribute to an "interesting discussion" is hilarious.

[Badger 2,405]

15 hours ago, ricardo said:

Thanks for a civil discussion Badger, I guess we both accept the inevitability of change its just that I don't  see any particular outcome as inevitable. Marx may well have come to a different conclusion had he known that there would be a Welfare State with unemployment benefits, redundancy pay offs etc etc.

No I don't see any particular outcome as predictable either - merely that there will be a change to the way that society is organised and that it will be economically driven. There will be a post-capitalist world, just as there is a post feudal and it is unlikely to be based around the nation state. Welfare - pensions and other benefits are also likely to become increasingly prevalent as the link between physical work and output becomes increasingly weak - an ever-increasing proportion of the services we consume are digitalied with zero marginal cost + physical output will become increasingly robotic. 

The exact form that society will take is anybody's guess. I think that sometimes we have to remember that Marx was a political activist as well as a philosopher/ analyst and have to separate the two. (I put that in an essay nearly 40 years ago 🤣).

[king canary 7,578]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

I don't think you are getting this. You are not  expected to see somebody as a black man rather than simply a man, you are expected to see him as a man. But in a world where you see somebody....simply a man     why are society's measurable outcomes so different? That is critical race theory.    

That is a hugely simplistic definition of what CRT covers.

[Fen Canary 793]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Oh dear! you truly are thick aren't you. If only you spent a fraction of the time you spend posting uniformed tripe on actually reading the ideas you claim to despise you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself by posting things like this. The idea that have anything to contribute to an "interesting discussion" is hilarious.

I always try and give reasons and explanations for my opinions. I think so far you’ve labelled me racist, sexist, misogynistic, thick, and bigoted, while parroting whatever you’ve read in the Guardian. Therefore I won’t be replying to you anymore on this thread. Have a good day 

[Fen Canary 793]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

No I don't see any particular outcome as predictable either - merely that there will be a change to the way that society is organised and that it will be economically driven. There will be a post-capitalist world, just as there is a post feudal and it is unlikely to be based around the nation state. Welfare - pensions and other benefits are also likely to become increasingly prevalent as the link between physical work and output becomes increasingly weak - an ever-increasing proportion of the services we consume are digitalied with zero marginal cost + physical output will become increasingly robotic. 

The exact form that society will take is anybody's guess. I think that sometimes we have to remember that Marx was a political activist as well as a philosopher/ analyst and have to separate the two. (I put that in an essay nearly 40 years ago 🤣).

I think the nation state will outlive any supranational organisations personally, globalisation in its current form is facing a popular backlash in quite a few countries due to the inequality it has helped ferment in many.

I personally can’t see the fall of capitalism itself, though I’ll agree it can’t continue in it’s current form. It is however an adaptable system, and I think we’ll see it move to a much more controlled model similar to the aftermath of the war but with a much stronger safety net rather than the current free for all. 

[horsefly 4,287]

7 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I always try and give reasons and explanations for my opinions.

Hahahahaa! You just spout the same bigoted unsupported unresearched views over and over again and have the audacity to think that constitutes an argument. Truly delusional.

[BigFish 1,986]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

That is a hugely simplistic definition of what CRT covers.

It is, admittedly, but still beyond @Fen Canary's level of argument

[horsefly 4,287]

5 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I think the nation state will outlive any supranational organisations personally, globalisation in its current form is facing a popular backlash in quite a few countries due to the inequality it has helped ferment in many.

I personally can’t see the fall of capitalism itself, though I’ll agree it can’t continue in it’s current form. It is however an adaptable system, and I think we’ll see it move to a much more controlled model similar to the aftermath of the war but with a much stronger safety net rather than the current free for all. 

Wow! genius analysis and not unreflective, unresearched, speculative opinion in the slightest. ("I always try and give reasons and explanations for my opinions"( Fen Canary one short post ago))

Edited April 15, 2021 by horsefly

[Fen Canary 793]

10 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It is, admittedly, but still beyond @Fen Canary's level of argument

Enlighten me then. Explain what you believe it means Why you think that focussing on somebody’s race, which seems to be the end result, above almost anything else is a good way to combat racism.

[Fen Canary 793]

11 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Wow! genius analysis and not unreflective, unresearched, speculative opinion in the slightest. ("I always try and give reasons and explanations for my opinions"( Fen Canary one short post ago))

What’s your opinion on the matter?

[horsefly 4,287]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

What’s your opinion on the matter?

I thought you just promised not to respond to my posts. Please don't disappoint yourself in this way.

[horsefly 4,287]

3 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Enlighten me then. Explain what you believe it means Why you think that focussing on somebody’s race, which seems to be the end result, above almost anything else is a good way to combat racism.

Ah! I see, your view is that we combat racism by ignoring differences in the treatment of different races. Well I suppose that would mean we de facto prove that no racism exists in any form (because we can't refer to race). But I guess there will still be some of us, with at least two brain cells to rub together, who can see the  flaws in that approach. 

[Fen Canary 793]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Ah! I see, your view is that we combat racism by ignoring differences in the treatment of different races. Well I suppose that would mean we de facto prove that no racism exists in any form (because we can't refer to race). But I guess there will still be some of us, with at least two brain cells to rub together, who can see the  flaws in that approach. 

After everything that has gone on since the summer, with the protests, statues etc, do you believe the different ethnicities in this country are more or less divided than they were this time last year? I personally think the constant labelling of different races as oppressors and oppressed has damaged race relations in this country 

[horsefly 4,287]

55 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

After everything that has gone on since the summer, with the protests, statues etc, do you believe the different ethnicities in this country are more or less divided than they were this time last year? I personally think the constant labelling of different races as oppressors and oppressed has damaged race relations in this country 

And there speaks an old white male who thinks there have been no real issues concerning racism because he hasn't personally confronted it. And now we live in an age of smart phones recording the everyday experiences of racism experienced for decades and decades, and those experiences are made widely accessible via the web, he would rather shoot the messengers who bring that evidence than reflect upon the possibilty that he has simply been ignorant of what has been happening to people of colour throughout his whole existence.

This represents the same astonishing ignorance displayed by David Starkey when he petulantly complained that slavery was not genocide because there are "so many damn blacks still around". If only the "damn blacks" would shut up about their unequal treatment then there wouldn't be any racism for me to consider would there.

Edited April 15, 2021 by horsefly

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

After everything that has gone on since the summer, with the protests, statues etc, do you believe the different ethnicities in this country are more or less divided than they were this time last year? I personally think the constant labelling of different races as oppressors and oppressed has damaged race relations in this country 

Well it is difficult to not think that racism has oppressed people. But lets not just assume we are talking about people with Afro Caribbean links.

While we have to remember the persecution of Jews, and not just Hitlers Germany, we also have to accept Israels persecution of many Arabic people.

The catalyst to the current problem was the murder of George Floyd at the same time as the US under the obscene Trump and the UK under Johnson.

That has now become more than a murder but a belief that racism is still systemic, particularly among the police.

For those who do not genuinely believe it is systemic I can see it might be a problem. But those who have genuinely experienced it, it is an even tougher problem.

I use the word genuine. There will always be idiots who include racism as part of their hateful, bullying persona.

Just the same there will be people who do not acknowledge that things have and still are changing. Do not believe that everyone holds the same view.

[BigFish 1,986]

38 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Enlighten me then. Explain what you believe it means Why you think that focussing on somebody’s race, which seems to be the end result, above almost anything else is a good way to combat racism.

You really have disappeared down a rabbit hole of your own devising on this one. If measurable differences in outcome between personal characteristics, including race, occur only an idiot wouldn't consider examining those for the reasons. And for that matter, the solutions.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

I would like to offer my greatest thanks to all those doctors and nurses in the NHS who are being cajoled to go home,  can't live and or work here because of racist policies by a bullying foreign and commonwealth office. This is due to the self serving Conservative and Unionist Party and I hope they all die out yesterday.

Racist against just about anyone with a different skin colour they purport to still believe that they are an empire. old habits die hard and those who think that they can reform a money slathering establishment who does not care one iota about society should take a hiking jump/take their head out of their backside and smell the air.

[Badger 2,405]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I think the nation state will outlive any supranational organisations personally, globalisation in its current form is facing a popular backlash in quite a few countries due to the inequality it has helped ferment in many.

I personally can’t see the fall of capitalism itself, though I’ll agree it can’t continue in it’s current form. It is however an adaptable system, and I think we’ll see it move to a much more controlled model similar to the aftermath of the war but with a much stronger safety net rather than the current free for all. 

There are some who think that we have arrived at the best possible situation and that the nation state and capitalism, both relatively recent phenomena in historical terms, will now live on forever - "the end of history" as it was named.

Some of these people are far brighter than I am, but I can't see it if we look at history through the lens of millenia and centuries rather than decades. (Of course, the advantage of this position is that I can't be proved wrong - I can just say "give it another few millennia and then you will see!" 😃)

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

Well I have sadly come to the conclusion that only the simple use the made-up term 'woke' to label all and everybody that may think things are a tad more complicated and nuanced than a simple knee jerk reaction. But then that was the point of the word wasn't it - to create a tribal label for the unthinking & unquestioning to use as a shorthand for all they disagree with. As Orwell's 1984 was noted earlier I would add that 'Woke' wouldn't be out of place with Newspeak 'Bellyfeel' or 'Duckspeak' for our true believers. 

What I do notice is that it's those largely with grudge or chip on their shoulder that use it yet are completely incapable of a moment of introspection. The trouble is few of us fit neatly into any of these boxes like 'woke' or 'lefty' for the simpletons to label. We are all more complicated than that being 'right' on some issues and 'left' on others.