Racism Report

[king canary 7,604]

Just now, PurpleCanary said:

Yes, sometimes it is just the wrong people, but there is also the scenario in which good people have found themselves forced by circumstances to water down or even abandon the theory, and act autocratically. Is it possible to create and run a truly communist society in the middle of a capitaist world, human nature being what it is?

The collapse of the Soviet bloc was in part caused by the entrancing glimpses of western capitalism people in the east got. Of course once they found themselves part of western capitalism they realised they had seen only the glamorous bits and not the unlovely underside.

True but I've met several East Europeans who grew up under those regimes and for all of Western Capitalism's many flaws, I don't know many who want to go back.

What I do know is many priviledged middle/upper middle class white English folks who would love to make the switch to communism, having never actually had any hardship in their lives. There was a hilarious thread on twitter where a very earnest tankie asked 'what would your role be in the future communist society?' Surprisingly all of these middle class westerners believed they'd be artists, poets, creative types and not breaking rocks, cleaning toilets or toiling in the fields. 

[Badger 2,405]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

So it is no true scotsman then.

Glad we got there eventually. 

It is pretty fundamental to all Marxist theory that you have to have a capitalist phase before a communist one.

The whole basis of the theory from the very beginning rests upon the dialectic - you can't just "skip a phase."

Simpler still, the clue is in the name - "communism" - i.e. a society organised around communes rather than states which are part of the capitalist superstructure. 

[ricardo 7,384]

11 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

 Is it possible to create and run a truly communist society in the middle of a capitaist world, human nature being what it is?

 

A century of evidence has already answered this question.

[Orly 277]

5 minutes ago, horsefly said:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/daunte-wright-shooting-how-air-fresheners-became-pretext-for-police-to-stop-black-drivers/ar-BB1fzX4D?ocid=msedgntp

 

His mother Katie Wright said her son called her to tell her he believed police had stopped him for an air freshener hanging in his rear-view mirror.

 

I don't particularly want to be in the position of contradicting a recently bereaved mother, but I also don't want to ignore potential misinformation that may exacerbate public violence / disorder.   Wikipedia (currently, as it is user edited) says the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Daunte_Wright#Traffic_stop

Traffic stop

At around 2:00 p.m. local time on April 11, 2021, Brooklyn Center police pulled over Daunte Wright for a traffic violation^[9] as the vehicle's registration tag had expired.^[1] Officers ran Wright's name through a police database, determined that he had an outstanding warrant, and tried to arrest him.^[10]
 

The source for the "expired registration tag" claim is here:

https://www.startribune.com/chief-officer-meant-to-use-taser-not-firearm-on-daunte-wright/600045076/

Very obviously, the above does not even slightly attempt to legitimise him being shot and killed, which is a terrible tragedy, but it does frame the tragedy differently - in that it appears that there was a legitimate, potentially non-racially motivated reason for him pulling over.

[Orly 277]

16 minutes ago, Badger said:

It is pretty fundamental to all Marxist theory that you have to have a capitalist phase before a communist one.

The whole basis of the theory from the very beginning rests upon the dialectic - you can't just "skip a phase."

Simpler still, the clue is in the name - "communism" - i.e. a society organised around communes rather than states which are part of the capitalist superstructure. 

I've always failed to see how the chronology of events would have any impact on the implementation of the existing ideology.

There are other alternatives, such as Universal basic income, that are far more likely to succeed within the confines of capitalism they still encourage a competence hierarchy to exist, which is fundamental to human and societal progress.   Andrew Yang is a notable proponent of it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang

 

[Badger 2,405]

28 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Is it possible to create and run a truly communist society in the middle of a capitaist world, human nature being what it is?

Yes, as you would expect to see communism in the most advanced countries. Three or four centuries ago, you could have argued "is it possible to have a truly capitalist society in the middle of a feudal world." (Except they wouldn't have used those terms.)

When/ if communism comes it will arrive in the most advanced parts of the world where they have been through all the historical stages. Looking at Marx's predictions about the increasing concentration of wealth and his view that corporations would become more powerful than states, I would say that we are bang on course...

[Badger 2,405]

2 minutes ago, Orly said:

I've always failed to see how the chronology of events would have any impact on the implementation of the existing ideology.

It is not the chronology that is important but the stages of development of society. You can't write a book before you have learnt to read: you can't become a communist society until you have been through all the stages of capitalism. This is why you would expect communism to emerge in the most advanced societies not the most backward (cf China and Russia).

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

6 minutes ago, Orly said:

I've always failed to see how the chronology of events would have any impact on the implementation of the existing ideology.

There are other alternatives, such as Universal basic income, that are far more likely to succeed within the confines of capitalism they still encourage a competence hierarchy to exist, which is fundamental to human and societal progress.   Andrew Yang is a notable proponent of it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang

 

To be fair, this is one of those notions that some economic right-wingers want to say is communist, yet the likes of Milton Friedman, pretty much their God, was an advocate of a negative income tax to aid low earners.

What I always found hilarious in the American theatre was the gibberish that Sanders was Communist when he was advocating a Scandinavian model of social capitalism all along.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

28 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes, sometimes it is just the wrong people, but there is also the scenario in which good people have found themselves forced by circumstances to water down or even abandon the theory, and act autocratically. Is it possible to create and run a truly communist society in the middle of a capitaist world, human nature being what it is?

The collapse of the Soviet bloc was in part caused by the entrancing glimpses of western capitalism people in the east got. Of course once they found themselves part of western capitalism they realised they had seen only the glamorous bits and not the unlovely underside.

I asked Tony Benn if it was possible for there to be a socialist oasis in the desert of capitalism and right wing Governments. We were discussing worker cooperatives.

He was convinced it was. He believed that worker cooperatives for instance could exist in an ever growing multi national world. He had tried with Meriden, where Triumph workers took over the running of the company.

Unfortunately, not only the banks but Japan put and end to the dream.

He did confuse me though when he thought that cooperatives shouldn't use their own money but borrow, which I thought just put the control back in the hands of the banks.

 

[ricardo 7,384]

46 minutes ago, Badger said:

I would say that we are bang on course...

The Essenes at Qumran probably thought the same thing.😉

[BigFish 1,986]

The thing is that communism was very effective in scaring the **** out of the west. This led to the rise of Social Democracy & a thriving middle class that the Marxists found hard to explain. With the collapse of the Soviet Union this fear factor disappeared and capitalism was allowed to let rip. Combined with technological advances and asset bubbles this is leading to a much more unequal society and a return of the two class system. This may be a flash in the pan and some clever technocrat will come up with a solution or it may be that Marxism's time has come 😉

[kick it off 1,948]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

So if you start killing protestors that stops you being a communist? 

I think there are lots of things Stalin did that don't fit with communism. I think if you are literally killing trade unionists on strike then it's pretty clearly not a good example of communism. I fail to see the argument that murdering the proletariat for witholding their labour is communism.

I'm not arguing for communism by the way, I'm with you in terms of perspective on hard left and hard right being two heads of the same beast.

What I am saying is holding Stalin up as a Communist example is not particularly useful as he did very little that was in keeping with the principles of Communism.

Edited April 13, 2021 by kick it off

[Badger 2,405]

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

That mere fact that it didn't  emerge from the more advanced capitalist economies ought to lead you to question basic Marxist theory. It seems to me to be a bit like a religion that is always awaiting the true Messiah.

1. Why would it have emerged yet? Capitalism has only been around for two or three hundred years and I would imagine that it has still some way further to evolve. We can see many of the trends that were predicted as inevitable consequences of capitalism - e.g. increasing concentration of wealth and power and the emergence of corporations which are becoming  bigger and more power than states, but the process is far from complete. Also I would argue that the world is not yet technologically advanced to make a communist society sustainable.

2. Marx's explanation of the pattern of history is quite compelling as is his critique of capitalism. It is a view based on evidence rather than belief.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Badger
Added last short para

[ricardo 7,384]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

1. Why would it have emerged yet? 

Waiting for the millennium, this is what it has in common with religion.

Whatever happens historically can always be fitted to the narrative because you are already convinced of its validity. When the predictions don't  happen as you expect its easy to push them a little further down the line.

The future is essentially unknowable and in a multitude of Universes Marxism might be one of them, but probably not in this one.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

19 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Waiting for the millennium, this is what it has in common with religion.

Whatever happens historically can always be fitted to the narrative because you are already convinced of its validity. When the predictions don't  happen as you expect its easy to push them a little further down the line.

The future is essentially unknowable and in a multitude of Universes Marxism might be one of them, but probably not in this one.

So it is easy to stick with the same order?

Capitalism, we are told, is the only proven method. But the powerful nations of the world wouldn't allow anything else to work anyway.

Even France with its socialist base would not risk change.

The ones that tried radical change had nothing left to lose. Russia was by no means the power it is now. So they have tried something different and although abandoning it, have made themselves a superpower.

The UK will never embrace socialism. It isn't even happy to keep a centrist Labour Party. But that should not mean that we give up pushing and prodding away. It has brought about change.

We were both printers Ricardo. And only because we could read and write. And it was change and the pushing and prodding that persuaded the powers to educate the masses and teach us to read and write.

[ricardo 7,384]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

So it is easy to stick with the same order?

Capitalism, we are told, is the only proven method. But the powerful nations of the world wouldn't allow anything else to work anyway.

Even France with its socialist base would not risk change.

The ones that tried radical change had nothing left to lose. Russia was by no means the power it is now. So they have tried something different and although abandoning it, have made themselves a superpower.

The UK will never embrace socialism. It isn't even happy to keep a centrist Labour Party. But that should not mean that we give up pushing and prodding away. It has brought about change.

We were both printers Ricardo. And only because we could read and write. And it was change and the pushing and prodding that persuaded the powers to educate the masses and teach us to read and write.

Call me a cynic, and I always try to remain hopeful, but  somehow I doubt there will be a library in the Gulag.👍

[Mr.Carrow 376]

55 minutes ago, BigFish said:

The thing is that communism was very effective in scaring the **** out of the west. This led to the rise of Social Democracy & a thriving middle class that the Marxists found hard to explain. With the collapse of the Soviet Union this fear factor disappeared and capitalism was allowed to let rip. Combined with technological advances and asset bubbles this is leading to a much more unequal society and a return of the two class system. This may be a flash in the pan and some clever technocrat will come up with a solution or it may be that Marxism's time has come 😉

The ideologically blinkered right react with much the same obfuscation, sophistry and intellectual dishonesty when presented with these very logical points, as the ideologically blinkered Left does when presented with the fact that far Left ideas have ended in carnage pretty much whenever they've been tried and that very large and powerful sections of the modern Left desire to put us through the same rinser again.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Call me a cynic, and I always try to remain hopeful, but  somehow I doubt there will be a library in the Gulag.👍

Would have been wasted anyway. But Solzhenitsyn must have had pen and paper.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Incidentally whilst we're comparing political ideologies, which one does a dogma which divides people into victim/privilege oppressed/oppressor groups based on immutable characteristics have most in common with? 🤔

[Badger 2,405]

17 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Waiting for the millennium, this is what it has in common with religion.

Whatever happens historically can always be fitted to the narrative because you are already convinced of its validity. When the predictions don't  happen as you expect its easy to push them a little further down the line.

The future is essentially unknowable and in a multitude of Universes Marxism might be one of them, but probably not in this one.

Marx tells us much more about the past than the future: he tells us virtually nothing about communism. He didn't make many predictions other than work through the contradictions of capitalism which would lead to a future different organisation of society. Whether "communism" will be the future organisation of society as he wanted it is impossible to tell (this is where his rigorous analysis is replaced by pontification ) but nevertheless, it It is reasonable to believe that capitalism will evolve and be replaced just as all other forms of economic organisation have been in human history.

I have often discussed Marx with people who say they disagree with what he says but they are rarely able to explain why and what parts they disagree with. The projection he makes of a "communist society" is optimistic but with little supporting evidence but nearly 200 years later, his analysis remains a powerful original source of analysis.

The future is not unknowable: we know that there will be change. The world is dynamic and what we today perceive as fundamental may be gone in the future. Capitalism will decline just as all other forms of economic and political organisation have.

[Badger 2,405]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Incidentally whilst we're comparing political ideologies, which one does a dogma which divides people into victim/privilege oppressed/oppressor groups based on immutable characteristics have most in common with? 🤔

Fascism?

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

The thing is that communism was very effective in scaring the **** out of the west. This led to the rise of Social Democracy & a thriving middle class that the Marxists found hard to explain. With the collapse of the Soviet Union this fear factor disappeared and capitalism was allowed to let rip. Combined with technological advances and asset bubbles this is leading to a much more unequal society and a return of the two class system. This may be a flash in the pan and some clever technocrat will come up with a solution or it may be that Marxism's time has come 😉

Erm, just two days ago you were telling us how much better everything is getting and how the kids were embracing progressive policies. Today, it's going in the other direction.

One thing is clear, Marxists do find a lot of things hard to explain. Ricardo has a point when he says the theory doesn't match the practice.

[horsefly 4,298]

4 hours ago, Orly said:

I don't particularly want to be in the position of contradicting a recently bereaved mother, but I also don't want to ignore potential misinformation that may exacerbate public violence / disorder.   Wikipedia (currently, as it is user edited) says the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Daunte_Wright#Traffic_stop

Traffic stop

At around 2:00 p.m. local time on April 11, 2021, Brooklyn Center police pulled over Daunte Wright for a traffic violation^[9] as the vehicle's registration tag had expired.^[1] Officers ran Wright's name through a police database, determined that he had an outstanding warrant, and tried to arrest him.^[10]
 

The source for the "expired registration tag" claim is here:

https://www.startribune.com/chief-officer-meant-to-use-taser-not-firearm-on-daunte-wright/600045076/

Very obviously, the above does not even slightly attempt to legitimise him being shot and killed, which is a terrible tragedy, but it does frame the tragedy differently - in that it appears that there was a legitimate, potentially non-racially motivated reason for him pulling over.

Have you read the whole article? It points out the massive disparity in the numbers of black people being pulled over by the police and the subsequent way they are dealt with.

[Yellow Fever 3,771]

We are off topic but capitalism / communism is all a bit too simple. It's all about different overlapping models most of which don't fit easily into any simplistic 'basket' i.e. the Nordic countries or China. Totalitarianism of both the left or right is the problem of which there are many examples.

China, the elephant in this room,  is supposedly communist but at a local level is pretty much market lead, 99% of the people it seems are outright capitalists and happy with their lot (I will put to one side Tibet and Uighurs for now). It's always seems to me that people really want is to be left alone, make money by hard work, entrepreneurship but at the same time some benign overarching leadership and a known stable set of rules. Pure unfettered capitalism etc. would make each of us pay for our own Covid vaccines if we could afford it !

Anyway - back to 'race'. I got fed up with people arguing definitions so I thought I'd give with care a few examples from my own family of what I would call subtle insidious societal 'racism'. All of the people quoted would of never thought they were racist!

First my apologies to all my African friends as to the language. I use it only to emphasize and elucidate the the problems.

My father, indeed my grandparents (I can hear them now) would often say such as 'The doctor/nurse was a 'darkie' but they are very nice". A variant would be be the doctor is as dark as coal - but ever so helpful. Similar for a new neighbor.

What comes through loud and clear is their surprise that somebody with a very different ethnic background to themselves is indeed such a nice person and so well qualified. But if they hadn't met them in person their assumption seems to be to the negative simply because of their race, name and colour. Racism writ large. A 'white' person would of been accepted with no surprise at all!

This is exactly the problem with many in society - it is their subconscious expectations of others, whereas one on one they quickly make 'new' friends. However, in many situations - the police being the most obvious, but also with employment these subconscious biases (negative expectations) can shine through. The cure is greater exposure to people of all 'races' where one will quickly discover that all can be good and bad as individuals.

Lastly race is far from a white only issue - I have heard and seen the most terrible racism between other tribes too.

Now I must admit  to my own shortcomings about anybody from Swindon.

 

 

[ricardo 7,384]

9 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Now I must admit  to my own shortcomings about anybody from Swindon.

 

 

I would have thought 1p5wich would be far enough.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

We are off topic but capitalism / communism is all a bit too simple. It's all about different overlapping models most of which don't fit easily into any simplistic 'basket' i.e. the Nordic countries or China. Totalitarianism of both the left or right is the problem of which there are many examples.

China, the elephant in this room,  is supposedly communist but at a local level is pretty much market lead, 99% of the people it seems are outright capitalists and happy with their lot (I will put to one side Tibet and Uighurs for now). It's always seems to me that people really want is to be left alone, make money by hard work, entrepreneurship but at the same time some benign overarching leadership and a known stable set of rules. Pure unfettered capitalism etc. would make each of us pay for our own Covid vaccines if we could afford it !

Anyway - back to 'race'. I got fed up with people arguing definitions so I thought I'd give with care a few examples from my own family of what I would call subtle insidious societal 'racism'. All of the people quoted would of never thought they were racist!

First my apologies to all my African friends as to the language. I use it only to emphasize and elucidate the the problems.

My father, indeed my grandparents (I can hear them now) would often say such as 'The doctor/nurse was a 'darkie' but they are very nice". A variant would be be the doctor is as dark as coal - but ever so helpful. Similar for a new neighbor.

What comes through loud and clear is their surprise that somebody with a very different ethnic background to themselves is indeed such a nice person and so well qualified. But if they hadn't met them in person their assumption seems to be to the negative simply because of their race, name and colour. Racism writ large. A 'white' person would of been accepted with no surprise at all!

This is exactly the problem with many in society - it is their subconscious expectations of others, whereas one on one they quickly make 'new' friends. However, in many situations - the police being the most obvious, but also with employment these subconscious biases (negative expectations) can shine through. The cure is greater exposure to people of all 'races' where one will quickly discover that all can be good and bad as individuals.

Lastly race is far from a white only issue - I have heard and seen the most terrible racism between other tribes too.

Now I must admit  to my own shortcomings about anybody from Swindon.

 

 

I have spent about 8 of the last 20 years traveling/living in non-white countries and I have had many conversations with fellow travelers about how experiencing the nuts and bolts of other peoples and cultures makes you more pragmatic and realistic about humanity and less idealistic. People are tribal and have a deep subconscious wariness of the "other". Where I am now they refer to the neighboring countries as burros (donkeys), in turn the denizens of that country refer to this as monos (monkeys). In my girlfriend's country I don't have a name, I am simply referred to as "foreigner" or "foreign horse" which is the locals jokey nickname for all foreign guys. The worst racism I ever witnessed was an actual punch-up at my old workplace between North and South Indians. I could go on....

The identity politics Left with its utopian, puritan zeal seems utterly divorced from the messy, confusing, complex reality of human nature and relationships and pointing out that most evidence points to the fact that in evolutionary terms, humans seem to find it easy to be cooperative and empathetic below the Dunbar number, but the opposite once split into different tribes- particularly when those tribes look and behave differently- is generally met with abuse and the usual boring and lazy cop out that you must be a right wing N*zi for introducing inconvenient ideas into the conversation. The other predictable tactic is accuse you of being a "biological determinist" for pointing out that people's natural subconscious biases are not likely to be overcome with hectoring, lecturing or accusations of bigotry etc.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Mr.Carrow

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Erm, just two days ago you were telling us how much better everything is getting and how the kids were embracing progressive policies. Today, it's going in the other direction.

One thing is clear, Marxists do find a lot of things hard to explain. Ricardo has a point when he says the theory doesn't match the practice.

Two separate things, my friend. With regards to my praise of the younger generation things are definitly improving with greater tolerance of differences in ethnicity, religion, sexual preference and physical attributes. Maybe they are a little earnest, but things are generally moving in a better direction. They have little agency when it comes to economics with capitalism's capacity for producing stable, well paid jobs diminishing. They are saddled with student debt, minimum wage employment, unable to even think about buying home etc. White collar professional sectors are being hollowed out by AI. This divides society between those who own big tech or inherit wealth and those who work in tactile occupations on minimum wages. Marx would recognise this, not sure that I have seen a reputable analysis that refutes the analysis.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

People are tribal and have a deep subconscious wariness of the "other".

A critical point in this debate, which even though it has meandered will always come back to this fundamental attribute of the human condition.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

5 minutes ago, Van wink said:

A critical point in this debate, which even though it has meandered will always come back to this fundamental attribute of the human condition.

Exactly.

Having lived in NZ, have relatives still there and visit fairly regularly, I am always amazed that in the main a generous, kind, free spirited, non stereotypical people voted for right wing governments for so long. And until the last election, the right had the majority party.

The people's lifestyles are not mirrored by their voting intentions.

[Van wink 2,994]

34 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Two separate things, my friend. With regards to my praise of the younger generation things are definitly improving with greater tolerance of differences in ethnicity, religion, sexual preference and physical attributes. Maybe they are a little earnest, but things are generally moving in a better direction. They have little agency when it comes to economics with capitalism's capacity for producing stable, well paid jobs diminishing. They are saddled with student debt, minimum wage employment, unable to even think about buying home etc. White collar professional sectors are being hollowed out by AI. This divides society between those who own big tech or inherit wealth and those who work in tactile occupations on minimum wages. Marx would recognise this, not sure that I have seen a reputable analysis that refutes the analysis.

"They are saddled with student debt, minimum wage employment, unable to even think about buying home etc."

What a huge generalisation BF, I abhor student loans but student debt isn't in fact the massive dead weight that many would have us believe it is, having said that I was fortunate to have free tertiary education. Those "saddled with student debt" should not be the same group who work on minimum wage employment, if they are decent quality graduates then pandemic excepted there will be work available for them well above the minimum wage, that has been the case with my family and those young people I am familiar with. Those without qualifications may well end up with jobs on minimum wage, has always been thus but at least there is now a "minimum wage" hasn't always been the case. As for buying property, yes a real problem, accepted.