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Nuff Said

Potential change to offside law

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Posted (edited)

Apparently this is being taken seriously, although it would take a couple of years, maybe more, to happen.

Is it me, or does it completely miss the point of what people hate so much about the current law and its (mis)interpretation by VAR? Moving the line just changes the point at which mistakes occur. What is needed is a change to the method/parameters used, either to allow a zone where the decision is automatically in favour of the attacker (or defender, if the aim is to reduce the number of goals allowed), or to default to the on-pitch decision unless it is blatantly wrong.

 

Edit: maybe I have yellow and green glasses on, but have they used Pukki at Spurs at 0:26 as an illustration of a marginal offside?

Edited by Nuff Said

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I’m with you Nuff. Am I being thick or missing something? In what way would moving the line reduce stoppages or drawing lines of the pitch to work out whether a player was on?

Massive strain on linesman to completely re-learn their job and muscle memory over years of experience. It’s likely to see them keep their flag down more and let the VAR deal with it - ultimately putting them out of a job.

Whats wrong with keeping it as is but if it’s within a margin of error (due to the picture/frame rate being imperfect) give the advantage to the attacker?

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20 minutes ago, WD40 said:

 

Whats wrong with keeping it as is but if it’s within a margin of error (due to the picture/frame rate being imperfect) give the advantage to the attacker bigger teams?

 Corrected that for you! 😉

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Trying to play 'definites' with the offside law (probably the majority of the rest, too) is impossible. Football is a sport of passion and drama, if you try and filter that through the absolutes of cold computer measurement you get... well, the current VAR.

What you want is confident, competent officials who ref the game to within reasonable doubt of the game at natural speed. Ultimately, VAR should only be used in any case where they could quickly see the on pitch man has had an absolute mare (Nyland carrying the ball over the line) or when it's something he couldn't reasonably have seen but is blatant cheating for an advantage (Henry handball v Ireland). 

Unfortunately this calls for a much higher quality of official that I don't think is currently in circulation.

 

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56 minutes ago, WD40 said:

I’m with you Nuff. Am I being thick or missing something? In what way would moving the line reduce stoppages or drawing lines of the pitch to work out whether a player was on?

Massive strain on linesman to completely re-learn their job and muscle memory over years of experience. It’s likely to see them keep their flag down more and let the VAR deal with it - ultimately putting them out of a job.

Whats wrong with keeping it as is but if it’s within a margin of error (due to the picture/frame rate being imperfect) give the advantage to the attacker?

This. 

Just keep it as it is, but have a margin of error. Even if the VAR manages to pinpoint the exact frame where the ball leaves the players foot, a professional footballer can move 15-20cm from one camera frame to the next if he's running at full speed, so a 15cm line would be the easiest solution. 

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Posted (edited)

Offside is a linear decision . You are either offside or you are not. Moving the line makes no difference 


The issue is how you decide . In the old days a linesman did it - a bizzare trick involving looking along a line and knowing when the ball is played sometimes completely beyond the realms of possibility given the human form and our limitations of peripheral eye sight . 

Then someone convinced the football authorities that we could use technology to a ) draw an infinite number of lines across a football pitch and b) have an infinite number of frames on a video to show the exact moment the foot makes contact with the ball. 

Of course , neither a) or b) are possible. Pukki’s goal was disallowed due to an inconclusive graphic showing a freeze frame of the ball having left Vrancic foot and at this given , random , time a line drawn across the pitch that was triangulated by cameras not in line , and then back up into the air because the offside part of the body was not in contact with the ground . 
 

Edited by Graham Paddons Beard
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all we need to do to make it compatible with VAR is only count the feet for Offside, its a simple change and is measurable

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13 minutes ago, Haus said:

all we need to do to make it compatible with VAR is only count the feet for Offside, its a simple change and is measurable

This will lead to managers only buying big bulky players with tiny feet or no feet at all. 😀

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Posted (edited)

Yes, (the video) completely misses or misrepresents the actual point. .... Wenger is promoting a rule change that he believes will enable more attacking football, the problem with VAR is the “region of uncertainty” others have described is being administered as if it is “infallible truth” - this does nothing to solve that, and if it is being pushed as the answer to that problem there will be an even bigger fan backlash as attackers who are “obviously offside” will now not be. 
 

I seriously wonder about the competence of those who run and cover the game... it really isn’t that difficult. 

Edited by Surfer

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I think the ref/linesmen on the pitch should make the call under existing rules and VAR only get involved for obvious errors as noted - where the ref/linesmen would of been ashamed to off missed it after the match.

Zones of uncertainty don't help as players will play to it and we won't get anywhere. The VAR official (or 4th official better) makes the 'human' call as to what is gross error (10cm+, handballs and dives) and normally says nothing (and so frame by frame analysis isn't needed there either)

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1 hour ago, Haus said:

all we need to do to make it compatible with VAR is only count the feet for Offside, its a simple change and is measurable

You are hereby promoted to head of UEFA.

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Leave it as uncomplicated as possible and give the advantage to the attacker if there is any doubt.

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Just a thought - why not have two yes two refs on the pitch and no VAR! They can form a team with the linesmen. That would remove at stroke most outrageous decisions 

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If VAR is limited to clear errors that would sort it immediately. If you’re struggling to try to measure it to the millimetre like with the Pukki “offside” at Spurs then it’s self evident it’s not a clear error.

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We could of course fcuk the beautiful game even more.

Take a player off the pitch every ten minutes to enable more attacking, if tiring, football so we could do away with the boring 4-3 scores so that scores of 27-25 becomes the norm.

Take away heading the ball because a handful of old men now have dementia. 

Do not allow the ball to hit a player in case it infringes on his human rights and leads to mental problems later in his twenties. Using a size 5 beach ball could help.

Do not allow spectators to say or shout anything at the game in case it offends someone. For instance OTBC will be banned in case it offends people who only live in towns.

In fact, why not stop the game altogether. It used to be called the working mans game but long since been hijacked so you now have to sit down in a sterile stadium, to watch millionaires playing billionaires while the foreign entourage sit in the directors box.

And countless coaches, of whom the percentage of successful ones is less than 10%, tell us the game is too important to be left to decisions by trained officials when they can see exactly what happened from 50 yards away through a crowd of players, and their assistant can see everything on his tablet.

For goodness sake, we are getting nearer madness by the season.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Haus said:

all we need to do to make it compatible with VAR is only count the feet for Offside, its a simple change and is measurable

What about diving headers? Could be several feet offside in theory

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3 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Where should Huas collect his blazer and brown envelope please ? 

Behind the South Stand would be convenient for me. 

The code phrase is 'Teemu wasn't offside'

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I don’t understand why they can’t just make it a clear and obvious offside to be overturned. 

If VAR can’t immediately tell if it’s offside or not, give the benefit to the attackers. 

All this mm subjectivity is ridiculous. They are trying to use margins as fine as winners of an athletic race but don’t have the camera angles for that level of precision.

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The basic problem with VAR is, it's giving us something (and not very successfully) we've never had.

The ball was played forward, if the linesman thought a player was in an offside position and it was worthy of drawing the refs attention to it he'd raise his flag. the ref would blow his whistle and we'd resume with an indirect free kick from where the offside player was. Simples.

Now, the thing is, that decision might have been right or wrong, we had no way of checking, but it was accepted - to a degree!

Now we have to wait 5 minutes for some clown to draw lines across the pitch and freeze frame the moment the ball left the attackers foot, and try to come to some decision. Which may or may not be the right decision (see above).

It's still not perfect - Pukki's goal against Spuds - How can a part of the body that you cannot legally score with be offside? I'm sure they are making this up as they go along.

After all the time and money that has been spent we are still no better off than we were. It still comes down to one mans opinion and the technology which is supposed to help make that decision is not offering any assistance in reaching a certain conclusion.

The one thing that remains certain is, we will have more goals disallowed when playing the bigger teams that they will against us.

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Seems like a good idea, more goals, I can’t see how it effects VAR, similar lines need to be drawn.

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12 hours ago, Newtopia said:

Seems like a good idea, more goals, I can’t see how it effects VAR, similar lines need to be drawn.

I don’t think most of are against it if the result is more goals, the point is that it completely misses what is making football supporters furious - VAR! 😡

 

It’s fiddling while Rome burns (although as @Surfer says, we don’t know what question Wenger was asked to address, so  it’s unfair to criticise him too much).

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Enter a long-standing hobby horse. The part of the law is decades out of date is the stipulation that a player is onside from pass forward if there are two defenders between them and the goal, and offside if there is only one. It needs to be changed to onside if there is one outfield defender.

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36 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It needs to be changed to onside if there is one outfield defender.

Do you mean one defender rather than outfield defender? Would you include the goalie in this rule?

If you could be onside when only the goalie is between you and the goal when a forward pass is played then that removes the offside trap completely as a defensive strategy - and you’ll see more defensive starting positions and less goals?

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34 minutes ago, WD40 said:

Do you mean one defender rather than outfield defender? Would you include the goalie in this rule?

If you could be onside when only the goalie is between you and the goal when a forward pass is played then that removes the offside trap completely as a defensive strategy - and you’ll see more defensive starting positions and less goals?

No, the goalie needs to get taken out of the equation. The point is the rule was formulated when goalies stayed at home, so the rule was in effect based on there being one outfield defender back. But now withe goalies going up for corners and the like a counter-attack can get caught offside even though there is one outfield defender bacK.

This precisely happened at Carrow Road years ago when we played Palace and Nigel Martyn went up for a corner in added time, leaving one outfield defender back. We broke away and seemed to score, only for it to be correctly ruled offside because the first forward pass made when we got into the Palace half, even though the outfield defender was still between our two players and the goal, made the recipient offside.

There was also this in a World Cup where a goalie gets away with really bad keeping:

 

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9 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No, the goalie needs to get taken out of the equation. The point is the rule was formulated when goalies stayed at home, so the rule was in effect based on there being one outfield defender back. But now withe goalies going up for corners and the like a counter-attack can get caught offside even though there is one outfield defender bacK.

This precisely happened at Carrow Road years ago when we played Palace and Nigel Martyn went up for a corner in added time, leaving one outfield defender back. We broke away and seemed to score, only for it to be correctly ruled offside because the first forward pass made when we got into the Palace half, even though the outfield defender was still between our two players and the goal, made the recipient offside.

There was also this in a World Cup where a goalie gets away with really bad keeping:

 

This rarely happens tbh and isn’t the biggest issue with the offside rule by a stretch. 

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Posted (edited)

It should be a big issue because it is a basic element of the law and way out of date. What gets all the attention, especially with VAR now, are merely questions of interpretation of the existing and now flawed law.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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